When 'grinding' is good

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Normally I see the term 'grinding' used in a derogatory sense to mean doing things over and over again simply to be able to take on a tougher enemy. To be honest, this sounds like an awful experience and not enjoyable at all. But reading reviews for Dark Souls and I noticed it was the first time I'd seen grinding used in a positive sense. This article [http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/3595/article/dark-souls-a-time-to-grind/] gives a very favourable opinion of the grind element in Dark Souls. I also understand the Final Fantasy and Pokemon games too have this element which is sometimes condemned and sometimes praised. I know lots of Japanese games make the player do this and wonder if there is a difference in culture somewhere - maybe westerners look on the phenomenon with more skepticism than their eastern neighbours? Is there a good type of grinding and a bad type?

I'm not an RPGer so forgive me if there's a simple answer to this conundrum. I'm interested in the phenomenon of 'grind' in general, as I'm traditionally a PC adventure gamer where repetition is essentially non-existent or is, at the very least, shunned. I am aiming to expand more into console and Japanese RPGs so it would help to first understand the games and genres where this might exist.

 

[Soxafloppin]

I've never really thought about leveling up your pokemon so you're strong enough to beat the next gym leader as grinding to be honest but I guess it is.

I don't mind doing things like that but things like grinding kills with a certain weapon in a game can be annoying at times, especially if your trying to upgrade it, ala Rachet and clank. I love those games but having to use a gun that you don't like can be annoying.

 

[JasonBurnout16]

Well you can't really grind in FF13 until the world opens up. Once that happens there's one spot where you can grind out experiance points for as long as you want.In Pokemon you can grind and here I'd probably suggest it. Being a few levels higher than your opponents always helps.

Personally, I like the option to grind, but I dislike games where it almost becomes mandatory in order to continue the story. I'd say that's the difference between 'good' and 'bad' grinding - when it becomes mandatory to continue the game, you're doing it wrong.

 

[WoW Killer]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

 

[aguspal]

I never did really mind grinding, In fact, a litte of grinding here and theres makes stuff better, specially if it is subtle...


Hell, I cant really think of a game that I played that went overboard with t he whole "grinding" thing, And I know I do it a lot...


Well, I guess Borderlands was just a tiny little bit annoying with grinding xp to level up weapons (READ: Level up the weapons, not the characters themselves), just so I could finally solo this Crawmerax guy (one of the greatest battles I have ever had, so yeah it was DEFINITIVLY worth it)

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

 

[Kordie]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

Actually no, you can beat the game right out the door. Granted it takes a lot of skill and patience, but it is possible. The only time you need to grind in Dark Souls is to compensate for a lack of skill in the game.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

Actually no, you can beat the game right out the door. Granted it takes a lot of skill and patience, but it is possible. The only time you need to grind in Dark Souls is to compensate for a lack of skill in the game.

A new player with no experience can beat it right out of the door? I'd like to see that. It would have been impossible for me. If I need to spend hours honing my skills without getting anywhere within the game, that's grinding.

 

[Kordie]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

Actually no, you can beat the game right out the door. Granted it takes a lot of skill and patience, but it is possible. The only time you need to grind in Dark Souls is to compensate for a lack of skill in the game.

A new player with no experience can beat it right out of the door? I'd like to see that. It would have been impossible for me. If I need to spend hours honing my skills without getting anywhere within the game, that's grinding.

A brand new player, no of course not. Like I said, it takes considerable skill and patience if your goal is to beat the game staying level 1 (or whatever your class starts at). I don't know anyone who would choose to walk into a game blind and do that, however it is possible. That is just to illustrate if you can do it with the base stats with enough skill, it is possible at any level.

Personally, I progressed through the game just fine, and at no point was it required that I grind souls to gain levels/abilities. The option to do so is there if you feel you want to, but it is not needed. It becomes a choice you get to make, grind up levels so that things are easier, or learn how the fights and areas function so that you can beat it as you are.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

When I'm a low level in New Vegas and I decide to take on the horde of Giant Radscorpions south of Mesquite Mountain Basin. It's a nightmare, there is no major quest reason to be over there, and you run out of ammo really fast, but it is incredibly fun and satisfying to clean them out.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

Actually no, you can beat the game right out the door. Granted it takes a lot of skill and patience, but it is possible. The only time you need to grind in Dark Souls is to compensate for a lack of skill in the game.

A new player with no experience can beat it right out of the door? I'd like to see that. It would have been impossible for me. If I need to spend hours honing my skills without getting anywhere within the game, that's grinding.

A brand new player, no of course not. Like I said, it takes considerable skill and patience if your goal is to beat the game staying level 1 (or whatever your class starts at). I don't know anyone who would choose to walk into a game blind and do that, however it is possible. That is just to illustrate if you can do it with the base stats with enough skill, it is possible at any level.

Personally, I progressed through the game just fine, and at no point was it required that I grind souls to gain levels/abilities. The option to do so is there if you feel you want to, but it is not needed. It becomes a choice you get to make, grind up levels so that things are easier, or learn how the fights and areas function so that you can beat it as you are.

And how many times did you die because you didn't have the requisite skill? How many times did you have to repeat a section because you weren't good enough? The game's called "Prepare to Die". It's part of the game to "prepare" by repeating things again and again to get better - whether by levelling or by improving your skill with the controller, and to learn by dying what works and what doesn't. I call that grinding.

 

[Kordie]

The article just uses "grind" as a synonym for progression, which is a mistake. There's nothing wrong with progression; it's the fundamental mechanic of RPGs. If you're enjoying the content you play through to progress, then it's not a grind.

But I think it's generally agreed that Dark Souls definitely has grinding. You need to do it to proceed in the game, to progress.

Actually no, you can beat the game right out the door. Granted it takes a lot of skill and patience, but it is possible. The only time you need to grind in Dark Souls is to compensate for a lack of skill in the game.

A new player with no experience can beat it right out of the door? I'd like to see that. It would have been impossible for me. If I need to spend hours honing my skills without getting anywhere within the game, that's grinding.

A brand new player, no of course not. Like I said, it takes considerable skill and patience if your goal is to beat the game staying level 1 (or whatever your class starts at). I don't know anyone who would choose to walk into a game blind and do that, however it is possible. That is just to illustrate if you can do it with the base stats with enough skill, it is possible at any level.

Personally, I progressed through the game just fine, and at no point was it required that I grind souls to gain levels/abilities. The option to do so is there if you feel you want to, but it is not needed. It becomes a choice you get to make, grind up levels so that things are easier, or learn how the fights and areas function so that you can beat it as you are.

And how many times did you die because you didn't have the requisite skill? How many times did you have to repeat a section because you weren't good enough? The game's called "Prepare to Die". It's part of the game to "prepare" by repeating things again and again to get better - whether by levelling or by improving your skill with the controller, and to learn by dying what works and what doesn't. I call that grinding.

Then I guess we are at a difference of opinion as to what grinding is. I see that as playing the game, and the very attributes about the game I purchased it for. I view clearing an area 50 times for the expressed reason of gathering souls to level up so that content is easier as a grind.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Not ever is grinding a good thing, some people may like it because self punishment is exciting to them but that doesn't change what it is.
It is a cheap shit system that came about with technology limits, you didn't always have the tech/space to make interesting quests/fights/monsters/maps so you resorted to recycling stuff and just throwing it at the player until he hit the X hours played mark and you could call it a day.

And it is by far the worst part of Dark Souls, could be the reason why I will end up not finishing it (unless someone can mod in a proper save system).

 

[DoPo]

Is there a good type of grinding and a bad type?

No, not really. There is only one type of grind. But you might enjoy it or not. Sure, the game might try to nudge you slightly in one direction or the other but it's still up to you.

 

[jehk]

I love 'grinding' in Persona 4. It's inherently fun hitting enemies weaknesses then performing all out attacks. There's tension too because if you don't hit their weaknesses the baddies might just kick your ass. Combine that with the cool music and stylish graphics and I've got something very enjoyable.

Yeah, yeah, I'm a fanboy but I wouldn't equate leveling to grinding. Leveling in RPGs should be a fun process. Once it's not then it becomes grinding.

 

[Epona]

I like grinding, it's was common when I got into RPG's and so it must be one of the reasons I like it. Grinding gives you control over the difficulty. I hate that some newer games actively try to prevent grinding. Lost Odyssey, for example, has an area cap and once you reach it you will get very low EXP. FF13 has that too but it's implemented better, it doesn't give you less EXP, it just doesn't let you use it until a certain time. You can stockpile it all you want though.

 

[Swyftstar]

When I was younger I loved grinding. There was not greater joy for me than exiting the first town of an rpg and killing the resident low level baddies until I was a little stronger than I needed to be, a process I then repeated whenever the game caught up to me. As I've gotten older I find that I can only stand grinding if the reward is just that awesome or if the gameplay mechanic is fun enough that I don't mind doing the same act over and over.

 

[Epona]

Not ever is grinding a good thing, some people may like it because self punishment is exciting to them but that doesn't change what it is.
It is a cheap shit system that came about with technology limits, you didn't always have the tech/space to make interesting quests/fights/monsters/maps so you resorted to recycling stuff and just throwing it at the player until he hit the X hours played mark and you could call it a day.

And it is by far the worst part of Dark Souls, could be the reason why I will end up not finishing it (unless someone can mod in a proper save system).

Yeah, fighting battles in a JRPG is all about padding the clock!

I think you miss the point entirely.

 

[biomechanical923]

Dark Souls does not require any grinding at all.

I personally consider Dark Souls to be more-or-less a super hard Zelda Clone.
You don't need to grind, but dungeons become much easier once you find the right piece of gear.
For example, Catacombs becomes much easier once you create a Divine Weapon, Duke's Archives and Crystal Cave are much easier once you get a Lightning Weapon, Blocking all kinds of attacks becomes much easier once you buy a Balder Shield, etc...etc...

I've beaten the game on SL1 multiple times while upgrading nothing but my weapon and shield.