When is elitism justifiable?

[Sung-Hwan]

I'll admit that for my immense knowledge of anime, its sub mediums, and decent understanding of the gaming industry, I never come off as elitist or high and mighty; I actually despise this behavior, and always try to be polite. In recent times though, I don't know if it's spawned out of being a loner, but I have developed some issues. To put it into better perspective, I feel extremely uncomfortable around those sort of people that proclaim themselves to be fans of something, but don't have the same level of understanding as I do...or at all. Examples...

A: I've been a Type-Moon fan for quite a long time, before their collaboration with ufotable; many, many people do not know Type-Moon is a visual novel/literature company. Since Fate/Zero, which cleaned up after DEEN's supposed mess with Fate/Stay Night, Type-Moon's popularity has skyrocketed in the anime medium. This has spawned many ignorant fans with no knowledge or interest in TM's origins, which leads to conflict with people like myself. This is made worse by the fact that the UBW anime is doing so well right now, and the influx of new people just pour in.

B: I'll admit, I did get into Megami Tensei through Persona 4 and 3, but unlike many people, decided to immerse myself in the franchise as a whole. Through my experience with Nocturne, I can now definitely see the animosity SMT fans have for Persona...it created many self-proclaimed fans that have no interest in the franchise beyond Persona. Yet, these Persona exclusive fans claim they are still fans of MegaTen, and understandably, this PISSES OFF veterans that were around before Megami Tensei even surfaced to semi popular levels.

I mean, is it justifiable in the way I am describing it? Plain and simple, I hate these people, but never express it properly because I am too nice. Even though elitism is frowned upon by many people, is it ever justified given the right circumstances?

 

[Longing]

Is more fans of something you like really a bad thing? This sounds very hipster-ish.
This is like music fans who get upset that someone found out about their favourite bands through a movie or, heaven forbid, guitar hero.

There are always other people who are going to be less knowledgeable than you regarding you cherished franchises. We all have to start somewhere. Does it somehow impede on your ability to still enjoy them? You were a rookie once too you know.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

Is more fans of something you like really a bad thing? This sounds very hipster-ish.
This is like music fans who get upset that someone found out about their favourite bands through a movie or, heaven forbid, guitar hero.

There are always other people who are going to be less knowledgeable than you regarding you cherished franchises. We all have to start somewhere. Does it somehow impede on your ability to still enjoy them? You were a rookie once too you know.

New fans are nice, but what if they decidedly remain ignorant? Like I said, there are many people who will not go read the visual novel Tsukihime or play a game like Nocturne. They came from the latest fad, and leech off that fad until it fades away. It's why Atlus is understandably leaning so much towards Persona over SMT, and it does worry people for the franchise. Look at what happened when Persona only fans caught wind of SMT4. Was NOT pretty.

 

[Longing]

Is more fans of something you like really a bad thing? This sounds very hipster-ish.
This is like music fans who get upset that someone found out about their favourite bands through a movie or, heaven forbid, guitar hero.

There are always other people who are going to be less knowledgeable than you regarding you cherished franchises. We all have to start somewhere. Does it somehow impede on your ability to still enjoy them? You were a rookie once too you know.

New fans are nice, but what if they decidedly remain ignorant? Like I said, there are many people who will not go read the visual novel Tsukihime or play a game like Nocturne. They came from the latest fad, and leech off that fad until it fades away. It's why Atlus is understandably leaning so much towards Persona over SMT.

Well some people don't like visual novels (I don't) and some people don't like games like Nocturne(I don't). Some people just want to play Persona (I do). It's kind of expected that Atlus would lean so much towards its most popular title. Sorry that you're not getting what you want, but you can't expect people to like a 100% of a franchise.

I love Lord of the Rings. I hate The Hobbit. I'm not mad that it's getting younger people into the series and that, probably, a lot of them will never read or see LOTR. I'm not gonna stop them from calling themselves fans on the notion that I'm the OVERLORD ULTIMATE FAN.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

And all that said, you still don't mind if these new people try to establish themselves with a franchise, despite only liking one part or aspect of it? I guess it is just a different perception from mine. I have always struggled with this whole elite vs newcomer thing inside my mind from observing other people interact.

 

[Longing]

And all that said, you still don't mind if these new people try to establish themselves with a franchise, despite only liking one part or aspect of it? I guess it is just a different perception from mine. I have always struggled with this whole elite vs newcomer thing inside my mind from observing other people interact.

Why would I mind? What does it change in my life? I get my 'most special fan' trophy taken away? Just think that, across all of those franchises you love so much, there are probably a lot of people who know more or love more than you.... oops, are you still a fan?

 

[Sung-Hwan]

And all that said, you still don't mind if these new people try to establish themselves with a franchise, despite only liking one part or aspect of it? I guess it is just a different perception from mine. I have always struggled with this whole elite vs newcomer thing inside my mind from observing other people interact.

Why would I mind? What does it change in my life? I get my 'most special fan' trophy taken away? Just think that, across all of those franchises you love so much, there are probably a lot of people who know more or love more than you.... oops, are you still a fan?

Here is what sets me in particular apart from your typical fan: I am very open-minded and diverse in my interests. I know there are people who probably know more than me in regards to a franchise, but instead of accepting that, I simply go and commit the time and effort into that franchise myself. As an example, like most people, I would get to know R07 through the popular anime Higurashi, but also commited the time to read the much lauded and extraordinarily long visual novel Umineko later on. I did not simply write it off or end it at an anime, but went all the way to its origins.

That's how it always goes really. I recently went through Final Fantasy XIII and its sequels for the controversy alone, but decided to commit the time to play through the entire series.

 

[Longing]

And all that said, you still don't mind if these new people try to establish themselves with a franchise, despite only liking one part or aspect of it? I guess it is just a different perception from mine. I have always struggled with this whole elite vs newcomer thing inside my mind from observing other people interact.

Why would I mind? What does it change in my life? I get my 'most special fan' trophy taken away? Just think that, across all of those franchises you love so much, there are probably a lot of people who know more or love more than you.... oops, are you still a fan?

Here is what sets me in particular apart from your typical fan: I am very open-minded and diverse in my interests. I know there are people who probably know more than me in regards to a franchise, but instead of accepting that, I simply go and commit the time and effort into that franchise myself. As an example, like most people, I would get to know R07 through the popular anime Higurashi, but also commited the time to read the much lauded and extraordinarily long visual novel Umineko later on. I did not simply write it off or end it at an anime, but went all the way to its origins.

That's how it always goes really. I recently went through Final Fantasy XIII and its sequels for the controversy alone, but decided to commit the time to play through the entire series.

Well some people don't have that much time to commit. Sorry, but I just think it's ridiculous to call yourself(general you) an authority on a particular subject and then decide who gets to come in the treehouse. Think of fandom like leveling up, you've got your level 1 wizard and then your level 20 arch mage. They're both still fans, of varying degrees and no ones gets to say who is and isn't.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

I think elitism in general is fine, beneficial even, so long as it doesn't lead you to harass others. It could be because I'm big into heavy metal, a genre which has always thrived due to its vibrant, and very often elitist, underground. It's never died because of the sheer passion a lot of the fans have put into it. It's sometimes that same zealous passion, what some would certainly label as elitist, that keeps things alive even when the mainstream has turned away from it. I really don't think elitism is the big, evil horrible thing so many try to see it as. It can be if an individual takes it to a certain point, but not all of them do.

In my experience, a lot of elitists rather try to educate others on their passion rather than bully them away from it. Of course you're always going to have the 15 year old YouTube kids (of which I, myself, was once one of) who simply try too hard with it all and come off looking like hateful fools, but you'll get that with pretty much everything.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I think the saying is: the ones that complain about elitism (not the exclusion due to elitism) are the ones that aren't elite.

In any activity we undertake, we can either do just enough, or go all out. However we're psychologically predisposed to want to be in the second choice. We want to believe we're the best, that we're doing our best, and that we aren't lazy slobs afraid to leave our comfort zone. This can be rubbed against, even by people with good intentions. I was in the same place with anime a long time back. Laughing at the "hardcore otaku" that only saw Akira and DBZ became a joke in itself, and while I once shared traits with that guy, I eventually learned how little I knew, and how much I was limiting myself by only watching select favorite shows, genres, or art styles.

Of course we don't always do one or the other (okay some people always take the phoned in approach) but many of us are aware of it. I keep up with Doctor Who, but am hardly a whovian, I've slipped well past my Otaku prime days, like Lord of the Rings as a film and hate the books, but at long as I'm not barred from entry, I don't see why some diehard fan thinking I'm shorting myself should bother me. I can enjoy the hobbies to my comfort level without the approval of others. Other people on the other hand get defensive at the thought of how far down they are on the knowledge totem pole. It's the only thing I can take away as to why this topic is always about the evil "elitism" (how dare you think you're better than me) instead of assholery (how dare you be a jerk for being better than me.)

The kind of elitism you mention is nothing to be ashamed of. It's an acknowledgement that there's a lot more to the world than the immediately popular, and that it's a more admirable trait to try and grow, experience more, and gain more knowledge, than it is to sit and stagnate at what's easy and popular. You wouldn't take someone seriously if they said they were a chief but they only could make a simple cake, or a musician that only knew one simple song. While I'll concede people can be jerks about it, I don't see that as a reason to say there's no value in some hierarchy in nerd hobbies to say some people put in more than others, and not just bestowing equal status like participation trophies on everyone. You can't force anyone to walk down the path, but you shouldn't feel shame for not having as much respect for those that chose not to walk down it, provided you aren't being an asshole about it.

 

[renegade7]

Sometimes it can be good for the image. When you're marketing something as "the best" it can pay to separate it from the "commoners". Think about the Corvette or Lamborghini brands, would they mean the same thing if they weren't inherently exclusive? Similar when you're trying to take the safe strategy and carve out a niche rather than take a risk and aim for mass appeal, you want to attribute some identity to the brand.

Of course, then there's being a snob, continuing with the metaphor, such as someone who judges people based on what kind of car they drive.

You're "elite" when you're the best. Harvard is an "elite" university because it is one of the hardest to get into and one of the most renowned in the world. But no one gives a shit about who the "truest" fan of any given anime, or video game, or band, or whatever is and you will only make an ass of yourself if you try to divide people into castes based on your definition of how true of a fan they are.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Instead of "you have to like what I like" it's "you can't like what I like (unless you do exactly as you are told)". Same bullshit.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think it all comes down less to the ideas and more to the representation. I honestly don't see any issues at all with the sort of perspectives stated in the OP. They sound perfectly valid to me and I could easily place myself in a similar position though with different anime/games/etc. The problem only comes in when you start lording your "extensive knowledge" and superb brand of fandom over others. Others are perfectly able to like the same things you like at a lower level of intensity, and there's nothing wrong with sharing your knowledge with them to try to increase their interest.. just don't be a dick about it.

 

[Queen Michael]

The way I see it, the only problem is if casual fans start calling themselves huge fans, like "I am such a Harry Potter fan!" even though you haven't ever read the books. In that case, you need to make it clear that you're a fan of the movies spefically.

In general, I'm elitist in the sense that I dislike it when people claim to be huge fans of something but don't act like it. For instance, when they claim to love manga and anime but don't make any attempt to even try anything by Osamu Tezuka, AKA The God Of Manga.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

When I think of elitism, I think of it on the political spectrum and how it can actually effect people's lives.

Nobody cares if you've read/watched 5000 more animuus or mangers than anyone else, that just means you have a lot less things to deal with in real life, and I'm sure that knowledge will set you in good standing for social situations where nobody is gonna give a fuck how much of a super fan you are.

 

[Zhukov]

Wait, you just mean elitism in relation to hobbies and pop culture?

Umm... never?

Man, I thought you meant in relation to stuff that, y'know, matters. As in the political notion of elitism.

Even if being elitist is justifiable, surely it still behooves one to not be a dick about trivial matters?

 

[Techno Squidgy]

I can't help but feel that this particular brand of elitism is one of the more stupid kinds. So, you're a super fan of , and this other person is also a fan, but either not to the same degree as you, or simply hasn't experienced as much of (or maybe doesn't even know about some of) the . You could:
1) Share your interests of the same part of the as them.
2) Show them / tell them about other parts of the you think they might be interested in.
3) Be a dick about it.

Why do so many people choose option 3?

Replace with band/TV series/Game/Franchise/Whatever as necessary.

What I'm trying to say is, it's better to share your knowledge than it is to look down on people for not having it.
I know quite a bit about fighter aircraft and aerial combat, my friends don't. We decided to play War Thunder together, and they had to keep asking me questions about match-ups, which tactics should they be using against which aircraft, and a thousand and one other things that anyone with a basic interest in WW2 aerial combat, or aerial combat in general, would know. Did I look down on them for describing themselves as War Thunder fans without knowing this (to be honest quite vital) information? No, I shared my knowledge, increasing theirs and their interest in the game and the events it strives to recreate. It's now gotten to the point where they are telling me about the great dogfights they've been having, the manoeuvres they've been performing, opponents they've bested and how they did it. By not being an elitist, I managed to improve the enjoyment my entire friendship group got out of the game. If I had looked down on them for not knowing that Spitfires can out turn Bf109s, we'd never have the fun we do today with the game, hell, they might not even be playing.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I've been a gamer since almost the conception of the home console (by birth I missed the actual genesis of the console by a few short years) but in any case does that give me the right to complain about gamers who're younger than me and don't have the experience I do? No it doesn't. Just because I'm an NES/Atari/Home PC gamer veteran doesn't make me any more qualified to be a fan than a kid who's just discovering gaming as it exists today.
Same goes with ANY fanbase. I'll also direct you to the patently false qualifier "No true Scotsman..." as it fits with "No true fan..."
I shouldn't have to explain it further, but I will. Level of involvement is a personal choice (as much as it is also a temporal positioning), and while you may not have much in common with fans who don't share your level of involvement it doesn't give you, or anyone, the right to judge who is really a fan or not. Exclusionary bullshit is bullshit. Its also the same type of attitude that gives us the "you're not a real gamer girl" attitude.
Just a bunch of crap.

 

[Dizchu]

"Elitism" is only justifiable when you're in an environment that demands very high standards, such as jobs that require the skills of an expert.

Otherwise, all it does is encourage division. One of the worst fandoms that suffers from this is heavy metal. Now I like my metal music. One could call me a "connoisseur" as I actively seek out the most cutting-edge bands from some of the most obscure scenes. However, I'm not gonna rag on someone for liking more mainstream bands like Avenged Sevenfold or Metallica. "We all had to start somewhere" is a sentiment that comes to mind, and to be fair to some people, that's where they wish to remain. Nobody is obligated to delve any deeper than they want to.

And I think this is the same with video games and anime too. Someone likes Naruto or Bleach or Attack on Titan? That's fine, let them. It's not tainting the things I enjoy.