This sounds very much like the Dr. Who fans that get upset at the recent 'uptick' in fans due to Christopher Eccleston and Matt Smith. This... is just counter to getting people into the hobby. Frankly, I'd LOVE to get into Manga, I've seen some things that I liked (Ghost in the Shell, ect), but frankly, if I have to 'know the history all the way back to the trade paperback', I frankly cannot be bothered. I have too many other hobbies.
When is elitism justifiable?
- Thread starter Sung-Hwan
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Over something that is entirely subjective? No!!!!!!!!!!!!
You eat, right? Well, there's loads of professional cheffs out there who likely think your idea of what constitutes good food is a fucking joke. Yet all you're doing is eating what you enjoy. You see how stupid that is, for someone to attack someone else over not being as into something as they are?
I already said it to you in the other thread, but get off that high horse. Don't pride yourself over personal taste.
You eat, right? Well, there's loads of professional cheffs out there who likely think your idea of what constitutes good food is a fucking joke. Yet all you're doing is eating what you enjoy. You see how stupid that is, for someone to attack someone else over not being as into something as they are?
I already said it to you in the other thread, but get off that high horse. Don't pride yourself over personal taste.
I would say just relax and if you can try to help nurture their interest something they've newly discovered and you've long known about. I doesn't belong to you any more then it belongs to them. Being a fan is like fight club, everyone decides their own level of involvement and where you might see people being ignorant and "noobs", they might see an annoying ultra-fanboy who is way too into something.Sung-Hwan said:
Anything is justifiable. Justification is meaningless outside of context. The real question you should be asking is 'How much of an asshole am I prepared to be deemed by the rest of the world before the satisfaction of feeling superior is no longer adequate compensation for the social ramifications of my actions.'
The answer, therefore, is 'it depends on how much "other people liking you" matters to you. If you're like me, and you think about 99% of the planet can just go jump into a volcano and die... elitism is pretty much your bread and butter. Bask in it all you like. If you need validation from others, or if you derive pleasure from extended social interactions other than you exerting your superiority... you might not want to keep it under closer check.
The answer, therefore, is 'it depends on how much "other people liking you" matters to you. If you're like me, and you think about 99% of the planet can just go jump into a volcano and die... elitism is pretty much your bread and butter. Bask in it all you like. If you need validation from others, or if you derive pleasure from extended social interactions other than you exerting your superiority... you might not want to keep it under closer check.
Op this is hard for me to explain or consolidate my thoughts but i suppose intention and action matter most in this instance.
even if this instance of so called elitism was fully unjustified, as long as you never acted upon it it would be fine... well for the most part.
but that doesn't seem like the full case, I'd need you to try and impotently sum up your feelings but i think it's more like a natural distrust.
these people are often untested and are spilling into your subculture, it's like casual gamers or the people that started FE on FE awakening, the distrust helps weed out the band wagon and the actual new fans. But it is still based in same group preference none the less.
Just be patient with them, suggest things to them when needed, if they actually become fans some of the cringy shit they said before will come back to haunt them by themselves.
And always keep this in mind, you get the community you deserve
even if this instance of so called elitism was fully unjustified, as long as you never acted upon it it would be fine... well for the most part.
but that doesn't seem like the full case, I'd need you to try and impotently sum up your feelings but i think it's more like a natural distrust.
these people are often untested and are spilling into your subculture, it's like casual gamers or the people that started FE on FE awakening, the distrust helps weed out the band wagon and the actual new fans. But it is still based in same group preference none the less.
Just be patient with them, suggest things to them when needed, if they actually become fans some of the cringy shit they said before will come back to haunt them by themselves.
And always keep this in mind, you get the community you deserve
Not really, because at the end of it, it's all unimportant. You like your anime and games? Great. You like knowing everything about them? Great. Doesn't mean everyone should enjoy it how you do.Sung-Hwan said:
That was sort of harsh man, he was asking about shit because at least a part of him felt unjustified, being like this is just rude.Casual Shinji said:
Allow me to play the devils advocate for a moment.
I think it's closer to the instance of going up to professional chiefs and talking about how great the tasteless food you like tastes. (man i love eating cardboard, no I've never tried that but cardboard so good XD)
perhaps I'm taking the aristocracy of worth position, (it's a quote from the lyre of orpheus idea, based davvies) but enjoying it yourself is different then taking a position. Claiming something puts you under scrutiny and if people find yo wanting, they simply can be right, frankly people can have just straight up better taste then you in some instances.
There is a reason why the term philistine and hack exists, and while the nature of art and culture remains flaky there can be and is a consensus within a subculture.
And i would never claim to be a gourmet chief and cook only KD.
Nor would i claim to be a fan of anything but the singular if i only tried a part of it.
Being a part of a subculture is not subjective, it's rather binary, the group accepts you or it does not because your interests coincide.
That is not to say this position is detrimental i half want to say its' up to the person to teach themselves before joining a subculture and up to the subculture to teach them because that's what we are dealing with in truth, a subculture.
if you push everyone away you'll get a stagnate culture of you accept everyone in, then perhaps you'll find what you came there for exists no longer.
With those concerns weighted,i can at least sympathize with op. Loosing a favorite thing because new people joined and demanded soilent green is tough. It's how i guess the total war guys feel about rome 2.
I know i felt it after C&C red alert 3, FE, the new one, Matt wards additions to warhammer, mostly 40k but whatever he touched in fantasy became ass and come tot hink of it a lot f games that have been revived lately. so many of them forgo their depth for shiny things for the fucking plebs, they drain what made them unique to pander to the young bloods.
I'm used to it by now but I can understand the fear, something becomes to popular and often they pander to the lowest common denominator
Well here's the thing, everyone is a "casual" in the eyes of someone else. That's why using it as well as "the dumb masses" as a derogatory term is so stupid. There's always going to be someone who knows more about a certain thing you're a fan of than you. Does that mean they're allowed to look down on you eventhough you feel you have more than enough knowledge to enjoy yourself with it? I mean, where is the roof on this thing?cleric of the order said:
If someone came up to me and said 'Hey, you like that too, huh? That's great and all, but you really need to educate yourself more' I'd tell them to take a fucking hike. If there's one thing that really ticks me off it's this mentality of berating people for not being "real" fans.
Elitism is never justifiable. If you're doing it so that you can say "I'm better than you", then you're doing it wrong. And if you're not doing it for that reason, then, well...why does anyone else matter? And if there's no "anyone else", you can't be elitist because elitism is inherently about putting yourself above "anyone else" for whichever contrived reason you can think of.
In general elitism can be beneficial. Then again I'm the type of person who would take a good oligarchy/monarchy over any type of democracy any day.
I can't speak to the SMT example, I simply know nothing about it.
As with the Type-Moon example I'm inclined to disagree on the whole.
Let's take Game of Thrones for example and pretend for a moment they aren't going to horribly fuck-up season 5. You can just watch the show, and it's fine. Or you can do what I did and read the books. *For the sake of example we'll ignore the huge barrier to entry the psychological affect of "The shortest book is eight-hundred pages and the longest is eleven-hundred, although books four and five were meant to be one book *Each over a thousand pages* but they had to be split, also the last third of book five was cut off* You could view one or the other, find one more enjoyable, but ultimately you can converse about the same things, they just might be lost on significance of all these minor characters whose entire family histories you have memorized. Both are viable. We can discuss the majority of the story unfazed, and my being versed in the show enables me to translate the differences. That works for me.
I've heard a similar tale about Unlimited Budget Works, although I've been told they jumped off the "True adaptation" train at the Berzerker fight. Surely the adaptation is not bad? And it's not like you lose fans to converse with, it'll just take time for them to catch up. My issue with Game of Thrones now is that people I used to converse with plainly will not read the books and I've lost the ability to talk to them about the story from this point on. If Ufotable decides to jump of the deep-end it's not like getting into the VN's is nearly so daunting a task.
Although some people could view it differently, like a infinitely smaller version of comic's to comic book movies. "I like the Dark Knight and the Avengers, but I can't vouch for the complete quality of the source-material, so I think I'll just stick with these movies I know will be pretty could, much less complicated" "Fate/Zero is great and Fate/Stay Night is really picking up "In April *Screams internally* What else is there? A bunch of visual novel games. I think I might just wait." If I wasn't afraid of spoilering assholes I probably never would've read the Attack on Titan Manga, because the anime would simply do the content better. Ufotable is a godly studio, so it is somewhat difficult to imagine the source material is so immensely superior, *Or even equal*. and the risk of being spoiled is not that great as it isn't part of the "I watch anime starter pack" as AoT seems to be.
I can contain myself. Some people can't. Simply enough difference.
I can't speak to the SMT example, I simply know nothing about it.
As with the Type-Moon example I'm inclined to disagree on the whole.
Let's take Game of Thrones for example and pretend for a moment they aren't going to horribly fuck-up season 5. You can just watch the show, and it's fine. Or you can do what I did and read the books. *For the sake of example we'll ignore the huge barrier to entry the psychological affect of "The shortest book is eight-hundred pages and the longest is eleven-hundred, although books four and five were meant to be one book *Each over a thousand pages* but they had to be split, also the last third of book five was cut off* You could view one or the other, find one more enjoyable, but ultimately you can converse about the same things, they just might be lost on significance of all these minor characters whose entire family histories you have memorized. Both are viable. We can discuss the majority of the story unfazed, and my being versed in the show enables me to translate the differences. That works for me.
I've heard a similar tale about Unlimited Budget Works, although I've been told they jumped off the "True adaptation" train at the Berzerker fight. Surely the adaptation is not bad? And it's not like you lose fans to converse with, it'll just take time for them to catch up. My issue with Game of Thrones now is that people I used to converse with plainly will not read the books and I've lost the ability to talk to them about the story from this point on. If Ufotable decides to jump of the deep-end it's not like getting into the VN's is nearly so daunting a task.
Although some people could view it differently, like a infinitely smaller version of comic's to comic book movies. "I like the Dark Knight and the Avengers, but I can't vouch for the complete quality of the source-material, so I think I'll just stick with these movies I know will be pretty could, much less complicated" "Fate/Zero is great and Fate/Stay Night is really picking up "In April *Screams internally* What else is there? A bunch of visual novel games. I think I might just wait." If I wasn't afraid of spoilering assholes I probably never would've read the Attack on Titan Manga, because the anime would simply do the content better. Ufotable is a godly studio, so it is somewhat difficult to imagine the source material is so immensely superior, *Or even equal*. and the risk of being spoiled is not that great as it isn't part of the "I watch anime starter pack" as AoT seems to be.
I can contain myself. Some people can't. Simply enough difference.
I agree with many of the points made here, with a caveat.
When something which you have loved forever to the point of exploring every single published piece of media, getting into the history of the creators of the franchise and branching out into more of their work, hits it big for some reason or another and becomes this huge mass-market appeal phenomenon which brings in loads of cash, this is when you get the biggest divide between the "elite" and the "casuals" (see Dr. Who for a prime example).
This is what, I think, drives people into camps and more or less propels them into mini-conflicts where people are dicks to each other. I don't agree with this, let's be clear. We could all stand to be less dickish to each other, especially on the internet.
However, budgets are dictated by appeal and big successes and when you suddenly have a product explode and become hugely popular, you can and do get problems. I'm totally turned off by many things which have exploded, because I think the focus grouping and market analyses have turned them into unwatchable/unplayable tripe. As examples: the state of the AAA gaming industry as it is now, with its DLCs and its pre-orders and its buggy shitty releases and its countless franchise-milking offenses. Turning a short children's books into three huge movies full of plot-holes and filler which all basically shit on the previous lovely efforts of the LotR trilogy. Hollywood's tendency to re-hash the same goddamn story in different flavours and not take risks on new IP. The entirety of similar programming that spawned from the successes of things like Buffy and the early seasons of SPN to dump-vomit a whole slew of semi-fantasy semi-horror romancy crap aimed at women on channels like CW and others.
Even, to a point, the whole Marvel over-saturation of the market pisses me off, because we all know how short the average person's attention span is and we all anticipate the point where people will just go "fuck this shit, I've had enough", wherein comic book movies will suddenly become unmarketable again.
Most of the companies behind these decisions don't look at the "elite fanbase" and market accordingly (most, not all. A select few care. Their publishers, however, probably don't). They look at numbers, and proceed from there.
So, far as I'm concerned, it's healthy to keep a small measure of elitism in your soul if you truly care about something. But rather than harp on the unsuspecting newcomers, I think it's best to try and engage them to dig further into things which might interest them, and save your vitriol for when, inevitably, publishers will fuck up your favourite things. And they will. Just give them time.
When something which you have loved forever to the point of exploring every single published piece of media, getting into the history of the creators of the franchise and branching out into more of their work, hits it big for some reason or another and becomes this huge mass-market appeal phenomenon which brings in loads of cash, this is when you get the biggest divide between the "elite" and the "casuals" (see Dr. Who for a prime example).
This is what, I think, drives people into camps and more or less propels them into mini-conflicts where people are dicks to each other. I don't agree with this, let's be clear. We could all stand to be less dickish to each other, especially on the internet.
However, budgets are dictated by appeal and big successes and when you suddenly have a product explode and become hugely popular, you can and do get problems. I'm totally turned off by many things which have exploded, because I think the focus grouping and market analyses have turned them into unwatchable/unplayable tripe. As examples: the state of the AAA gaming industry as it is now, with its DLCs and its pre-orders and its buggy shitty releases and its countless franchise-milking offenses. Turning a short children's books into three huge movies full of plot-holes and filler which all basically shit on the previous lovely efforts of the LotR trilogy. Hollywood's tendency to re-hash the same goddamn story in different flavours and not take risks on new IP. The entirety of similar programming that spawned from the successes of things like Buffy and the early seasons of SPN to dump-vomit a whole slew of semi-fantasy semi-horror romancy crap aimed at women on channels like CW and others.
Even, to a point, the whole Marvel over-saturation of the market pisses me off, because we all know how short the average person's attention span is and we all anticipate the point where people will just go "fuck this shit, I've had enough", wherein comic book movies will suddenly become unmarketable again.
Most of the companies behind these decisions don't look at the "elite fanbase" and market accordingly (most, not all. A select few care. Their publishers, however, probably don't). They look at numbers, and proceed from there.
So, far as I'm concerned, it's healthy to keep a small measure of elitism in your soul if you truly care about something. But rather than harp on the unsuspecting newcomers, I think it's best to try and engage them to dig further into things which might interest them, and save your vitriol for when, inevitably, publishers will fuck up your favourite things. And they will. Just give them time.
That's because you assume you'd be "on top" of it. Chances are, however, you wouldn't be.Methodical-Vigilante said:
Or maybe you're just confusing "elitism" for "some people are going to come out on top in any kind of environment". Many people make that mistake.
Elitism isn't about that. Elitism is about trying to justify why someone else shouldn't even have a chance to succeed or pretending they already had their chance when they haven't...basically about why nobody "deserves" to have a shot at competing with you.
Basically, elitism is about going all-in on the first hand where you happened to get a jack and king of clubs, and the ten, queen and ace of clubs were on the table at the flop. Then telling the other players they suck at poker because they can't even get a straight flush. That's elitism.
Bold words. I'm willing to bet money there's something that could make you lose your composure. You're not a robot. It's all about pushing the right buttons.
Sure! People really ought to avoid weighing in with their uninformed opinions of high level physics, for example.Sung-Hwan said:
...No. Fandom elitism is not justified. I mean, maybe in the specific discussion of esoteric knowledge thereof, perhaps, but looking down on people for being fans of the best parts of a fiction rather than all of it is patently ridiculous.Sung-Hwan said:
Its a vice for any man or woman. Its good to live with some humbleness in your system but I suppose we would have to figure out what type of elitism and where is it being used?
If its because you happen to be in a higher class of society, then the elitism one feel's comes from vanity rather than proven knowledge or worth. This type of elitism is probably the worst kind because its one of those traits that has its roots in selfishness, greed, and narcissism.
Now its different if you are say, as the OP put it --- a pretty knowledgeable person in Anime. If you've read manga, even the old manga, watched just about every series there was...and you come across someone whom also claims they are a fan but the only shows or movies they can come up with is Akira or Pokemon...well... you would probably roll your eyes and maybe mentally shake your head. That's basically pride in knowledge. You spent the time to learn and now you basically feel a fan should at least reach a certain tier of appreciation before they too can claim so.
This scenario can be placed in any type of field. Science. Carpentry. Skateboarding. Writing ( oooo def writing!), Video Games, sports... what ever you want to put down.
Then there is another type of elitism which comes from self made social clicks or those whom have reached a certain skill whom swears anyone lesser than them shouldn't even be in their " league". This is also a rather irritating character trait. Instead of being humble, you are nothing but that --- and you make certain everyone knows it too. I think the best comparison for this is when you join a FPS multiplayer game for the first time and you always have that cuss filled, snarky kid whom constantly plays the said game for hours and hours, taunting and then getting people to kick you out of the session completely.
So I'm afraid as human beings we can't help that elitism manifests itself and in reality, the people often allow it to happen... just look at pop culture worship and famous entertainment backed " icons". Its up to you as a person to have stronger virtues and walk a humble but firm path...and depending upon life experience or up-bringing, that can be hard for some and impossible for others.
The question of whether its justifiable can only be answered by the individual themselves.
If its because you happen to be in a higher class of society, then the elitism one feel's comes from vanity rather than proven knowledge or worth. This type of elitism is probably the worst kind because its one of those traits that has its roots in selfishness, greed, and narcissism.
Now its different if you are say, as the OP put it --- a pretty knowledgeable person in Anime. If you've read manga, even the old manga, watched just about every series there was...and you come across someone whom also claims they are a fan but the only shows or movies they can come up with is Akira or Pokemon...well... you would probably roll your eyes and maybe mentally shake your head. That's basically pride in knowledge. You spent the time to learn and now you basically feel a fan should at least reach a certain tier of appreciation before they too can claim so.
This scenario can be placed in any type of field. Science. Carpentry. Skateboarding. Writing ( oooo def writing!), Video Games, sports... what ever you want to put down.
Then there is another type of elitism which comes from self made social clicks or those whom have reached a certain skill whom swears anyone lesser than them shouldn't even be in their " league". This is also a rather irritating character trait. Instead of being humble, you are nothing but that --- and you make certain everyone knows it too. I think the best comparison for this is when you join a FPS multiplayer game for the first time and you always have that cuss filled, snarky kid whom constantly plays the said game for hours and hours, taunting and then getting people to kick you out of the session completely.
So I'm afraid as human beings we can't help that elitism manifests itself and in reality, the people often allow it to happen... just look at pop culture worship and famous entertainment backed " icons". Its up to you as a person to have stronger virtues and walk a humble but firm path...and depending upon life experience or up-bringing, that can be hard for some and impossible for others.
The question of whether its justifiable can only be answered by the individual themselves.
not necessarily true, i mean it is but not in the way you are getting at. I'm a raging autitist, diagnosed and everything and I've spent enough time arguing about warhammer among other things to know how these break down. People veer toward one specialization and these conversations can be likened to at the most flattering forms, interdisciplinary arguments in academia. both parties come out more educated for the effort and it certainly does not some how invalidate the knowledgeable. Subcultures are meritocratic, in regards to a virtue necessary to engage, for example one can't be a musician and unable to create music in any form, or has no understanding of music. much the same if the merit to be a fandom is to play a reasonable amount of games in a series (so you could foster or aid the discussion) then you are simply not part of it if you are unable to. Simply people don't want deadweight, this is their fandom, their specialization. and it's the forcible entry into these things that is the problem.Casual Shinji said:
How can i explain it to be crystal clear, okay.
nobody would know you liked X unless something you did. You for example would not know I liked warhammer until i said it. thus is called into conversation about it, I'd be expected to carry my own in regards to what i claim to be. if i were a Docter i could be asked to treat someone. or far less drastically in my place i would have to explain the lore of 40k/fantasy to someone.
People dislike fakes, liars and braggarts, perceptually the real deal does
I'm sorry but if someone ever did something like that they would be more like "hey you like that, try this" and that's awesome, you get to try more things and broaden your arrival.
OR they would ask you about things you liked the whatever you liked and try to strike up a conversation.
And for your final comment i had a head to agree with you, and then i talked to some people about it and i came to understand their points.
There is a point you can claim to be a part of a fandom and not.
liking something is different then being a fan, fan's root word is fanatic but even then someone who likes something can hold a conversation with someone that doesn't.
But there are people that try to fake things to gain attention, to be noticed, posers really. I chalk it up to peer pressure and that sort of thing and those people DO exist, hating the idea that they do does not change reality. it's more often based in your perspectives.
And in truth try to give those folks a fair shake, they are reasonable human being for the most part, perhaps alien in culture and perception but still intention follows and no body claims anything without a reason. and while i can see some arrogance ad egotism, i can see also legitimate or rather earnest reasons behind their contempt.
Never. End of story. You are not allowed to feel superior to someone because you know more about a certain subject matter then they do. If you just correct a mistake they make, then that isn't elitism, that's knowing something they don't. Unless you're rude and snotty about it, which is being elitist. That's the difference.