When should an actors ethnicity be important when adapting a fictional character?

[Vicount Tinselby]

Hi there all, im sorry if this has been a Topic before on the forums,( which it undoubtably has), but with the recent rumours going about that Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson is being considered for the role of Cpt.Marvel/ Shazam in an upcoming Movie ive seen in a few places people questioning this choice because Johnson is not Caucasian and Shazam has typically been portrayed as being so.

This confuses me beyond belief, because while Billy Batson/ Shazam has always been drawn as Caucasian, the characters ethnicity is not an integral part of his backstory.

The Character of Billy Batson, while orignally portrayed as homeless in the 1940's , is a typical boy living in modern day America; A multi ethnic society. Billy Batson is not widely known to acknowledge any privalges or contend with any disadvantages due to his ethnicity as a part of his day to day life.

Thus there is no reason why the casting for these two characters shouldnt be colourblind.



This is where i get to the crux of the issue, sorry for waffling ive never put up a discussion on a forum like this before, and it is not a simple topic.

(This is of course unless the director is setting the story as it was originally shown, if its set in an alternate universe or culture/time then there are no rules).

The way i see it, an actor should only 'have to be' a certain ethnicity if:

A- The characters ethnicity is central to the drama of the story, or was in the past.
For example: Virgil Tibbs, Atticus Finch & Tom Robinson, The Red Skull.


B- The character is a national from a REAL country or part of a country which would not be considered particulalrly multiethnic or multicultural at the time in which it is set, to the point that it would break suspension of disbelief if said character was of an ethnicity other than those of said country.

For example: Light Yagami from Death Note, Ororo Monroe/Storm, Imhotep from the Mummy.

C-The Plot takes place in a fictional Universe, but racial predjudice (not cultural) is still important to the drama, and ethnic groups are a direct analogue to those in the real world.

On the other hand, I beleive cases where an actors ethnicity is not important at all are:

A- When the character is an Alien, from another world/ dimension/ alternate universe, or has been stated to be so.
For example: Superman, Goku from Dragonball, Heimdal in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

B- When the original plot is set on earth, but the adaptation has changed the setting to another culture or time, this has been done many times with Shakespeare characters.

C-When the major characters are human but the plot takes place in an alternate world where earth as we know it does not exist. Wether the cultures shown are inspired by real world cultures or not and racial predjudice (not cultural) between humans is not addressed.
For example: The cast of Star Wars, the cast of Naruto, the cast of Avatar the Last Airbender.

D-When the producers have specifically stated that their adaptation of the story will ommit any references to racial predjudice as an issue, and informed the audience of colourblind casting in order to prepare to let them prepare their suspension of disbelief.

For example: the BBC's adaptions of Arthurian Legend 'Merlin', and its Robin Hood Adaptation.

What are peoples thoughts? i know that many people will disagree with me on some examples, andthere may be other cases where an actors ethnicity probably should or should not be considered that i hanvt thought.

There are also examples which may be too complex an issue, for example the cast of Star Trek.

Captain Kirk is American is he not? and while his orignal actor was Caucasian, being Caucasian isnt central to his character as Star Trek is set in a world without racial predjudice between humans, so who says he has to be played by someone Caucasian?

But then Sulu is Japanese, is Japan as multiethnic as America in the future of Star Trek? John Cho isnt Japanese or of Japanese decseant but George Takei said that Sulu represented all of Asia on the Enterprise. But then does Sulu even have to be portrayed by someone Asian?

 

[Vault101]

But then Sulu is Japanese, is Japan as multiethnic as America in the future of Star Trek? John Cho isnt Japanese or of Japanese decseant but George Takei said that Sulu represented all of Asia on the Enterprise. But then does Sulu even have to be portrayed by someone Asian?

yes, for the simple fact that Sulu is a minority, to white wash him would be to take away what is unique about him

OT: I'm all for "race bending" charachters, it might make us reconsider our assumptions

 

[Lilani]

I think it only matters when they are portraying a specific person from history, or when they are supposed to have grown up with a very specific background, like how Magneto was a Jew who spent time in a concentration camp. I don't believe I disagree with any of your examples, you're right: there's no reason Kirk has to be white, and no reason Sulu has to be Asian. The idea of Star Trek is the earth has gotten over the idea of racism, at least among its own people.

Which means making characters who were previously of color should be okay becoming white as well, like Storm from X men or Uhura from Star Trek. However since we are still trying to grow out of the whole "whitewashing" thing in popular media that's a bit of a sore spot at the moment. And then there's the idea of tradition that comes with certain roles: Uhura got TV's first interracial kiss and was a frontrunner in forwarding the role of black people on television and in the media in general. Many may feel that changing her race is doing a dishonor to the character's history and influence.

 

[Lilani]

But then Sulu is Japanese, is Japan as multiethnic as America in the future of Star Trek? John Cho isnt Japanese or of Japanese decseant but George Takei said that Sulu represented all of Asia on the Enterprise. But then does Sulu even have to be portrayed by someone Asian?

yes, for the simple fact that Sulu is a minority, to white wash him would be to take away what is unique about him

OT: I'm all for "race bending" charachters, it might make us reconsider our assumptions

Why is his not being white the most unique thing about him? I think that's rather insulting to the character.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Generally, I'd agree.

However it should be remembered that there are a lot more white heroes in Hollywood than PoC. Changing a PoC hero into a white person isn't the same as changing a white hero into a PoC, because the ratios are very different.

OTOH, if there was more diversity in Hollywood, this wouldn't be an issue.

Captain Kirk is American is he not? and while his orignal actor was Caucasian, being Caucasian isnt central to his character as Star Trek is set in a world without racial predjudice between humans, so who says he has to be played by someone Caucasian?

But then Sulu is Japanese, is Japan as multiethnic as America in the future of Star Trek? John Cho isnt Japanese or of Japanese decseant but George Takei said that Sulu represented all of Asia on the Enterprise. But then does Sulu even have to be portrayed by someone Asian?

I'd say no, in those examples. However, Chekov has to be Russian, as he was always going about about Russians in the show, though Russia could be multi-ethnic.

 

[Vault101]

Why is his not being white the most unique thing about him? I think that's rather insulting to the character.

what I meant was, I would agree with this:

[quote/]
Which means making characters who were previously of color should be okay becoming white as well, like Storm from X men or Uhura from Star Trek[/quote]

IF we lived in a world that had a better track record for representing Minorities, but we don't. Sulu is Sulu regardless of being asian [footnote/](but I refute the idea it doesn't make any difference, our race is a part of is...even if in some contexts its superficial)[/footnote] but to whitewash him in a cast that was [i/]already[/i] white would be...unfortunate, thease things don't exsit in a vacumn

 

[carnex]

Other than what people are used to it's not important. But rabid fans will be rabid fans and any change to their bellowed character is guaranteed to cause a ruckus. Even if it's "historical" movie that's not really there to be accurate but entertaining like recent Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter you can swap things arround. They could have made him native American and vampires white and it wold be just dandy.

Yea, there is nothing wrong. It's just that when people who feel underrepresented loose one of the characters representing them they feel really hurt. And already mentioned rabid fans.

I mean, why Captain America couldn't be native American, Iron man big black guy in full metal armor, Black Widow chnese female martial artist, Hulk one of many vengeful spirits in native American mythology etc, and all of them fighting against United States of America around 1850?

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

I think it only matters when they are portraying a specific person from history, or when they are supposed to have grown up with a very specific background, like how Magneto was a Jew who spent time in a concentration camp. I don't believe I disagree with any of your examples, you're right: there's no reason Kirk has to be white, and no reason Sulu has to be Asian. The idea of Star Trek is the earth has gotten over the idea of racism, at least among its own people.

Which means making characters who were previously of color should be okay becoming white as well, like Storm from X men or Uhura from Star Trek. However since we are still trying to grow out of the whole "whitewashing" thing in popular media that's a bit of a sore spot at the moment. And then there's the idea of tradition that comes with certain roles: Uhura got TV's first interracial kiss on TV and was a frontrunner in forwarding the role of black people on television and in the media in general. Many may feel that changing her race is doing a dishonor to the character's history and influence.

I pretty much agree with you, the Nazi's of course didnt just put Jewish people in the camps, so it could be interesting if there was an x-men adaptation where Magneto was for example a black french or german national.
Also i listed Storm as someone whos actor should probably be African or African American if you were to go for a strait adaption becuase shes supposed to be the daughter of a kenyan princess, who ended up on the streets of Cairo. apart from the whole Kenyan Royalty thing if an Asian or Caucasian child was seen running around the streets of Cairo in reality someone would assume they were a lost tourist, but thats something that could work.

I understand that Uhura orignal character was historic for the progress of equality on screen, but the point i was trying to get at about Star Trek was that with all cultures being harmonic you could theoretically have Kirk played by an African for example and Uhura by someone Asian or Caucasian. As long as the cast was diverse, as was the point of the original show, would it matter which character was portrayed by an actor of which ethnicity? So the legacy of Uhura's character wouldnt strictly be tarred.

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

Why is his not being white the most unique thing about him? I think that's rather insulting to the character.

what I meant was, I would agree with this:

[quote/]
Which means making characters who were previously of color should be okay becoming white as well, like Storm from X men or Uhura from Star Trek

IF we lived in a world that had a better track record for representing Minorities, but we don't. Sulu is Sulu regardless of being asian [footnote/](but I refute the idea it doesn't make any difference, our race is a part of is...even if in some contexts its superficial)[/footnote] but to whitewash him in a cast that was [i/]already[/i] white would be...unfortunate, thease things don't exsit in a vacumn[/quote]

Just to say that my point is that The purpose of Star Trek was to have a diverse cast with each one being representative of a nation or laegue of nations, so having Sulu be Caucasian would not be whitewashing him in a cast of white actors becuase ideally the rest of a cast would be diverse as well.

so each ethnic group and nation would be represented but becuase Star Trek has a completely multicultural and multiethnic society it doesnt have to go:

Kirk- caucasian, Scotty-caucasian, Chekov- Caucasian, Uhura-African, Sulu-Asian, Spock-Vulcan/caucasian.

it could instread be Kirk- American Asian, Scotty-African, Chekov-Middle eastern, Uhura-Asian, Sulu Caucasian, Spock-Vulcan/African.

And still work.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just to say that my point is that The purpose of Star Trek was to have a diverse cast with each one being representative of a nation or laegue of nations, so having Sulu be Caucasian would not be whitewashing him in a cast of white actors becuase ideally the rest of a cast would be diverse as well.

so each ethnic group and nation would be represented but becuase Star Trek has a completely multicultural and multiethnic society it doesnt have to go:

Kirk- caucasian, Scotty-caucasian, Chekov- Caucasian, Uhura-African, Sulu-Asian, Spock-Vulcan/caucasian.

it could instread be Kirk- American Asian, Scotty-African, Chekov-Middle eastern, Uhura-Asian, Sulu Caucasian, Spock-Vulcan/African.

And still work.

Ideally, yes. However, that's not going to happen, though, is it?

Sulu being white is a lot more likely than Kirk not being white.

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

Other than what people are used to it's not important. But rabid fans will be rabid fans and any change to their bellowed character is guaranteed to cause a ruckus. Even if it's "historical" movie that's not really there to be accurate but entertaining like recent Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter you can swap things arround. They could have made him native American and vampires white and it wold be just dandy.

Yea, there is nothing wrong. It's just that when people who feel underrepresented loose one of the characters representing them they feel really hurt. And already mentioned rabid fans.

I mean, why Captain America couldn't be native American, Iron man big black guy in full metal armor, Black Widow chnese female martial artist, Hulk one of many vengeful spirits in native American mythology etc, and all of them fighting against United States of America around 1850?

I agree with most of what you say, and of course when its alternate universe there are no rules.

I would only say when making a straight adaption some of those characters would have to stay as they are and others wouldnt if you wanted it to not break suspension of disbelief.

Capt.America, as in Steve Rogers, kind of has to be Caucasian if you are trying to stay as close to the story as possible, because Steve Rogers would not have been treated with the resepct he got in 1940's America if he was Black, definately not if he was Asian.

To cast Steve Rogers as someone who wasnt caucasian would be to ignore the disadvantages he would have met if he wasnt, essentially his story would have been completely different.

HOWEVER, if you were to adapt the story of Capt.America as in Isaiah Bradley, the Black soldier who was experimented on in a much more shady fashion, in reference to the Tuskegee syphilis experiment that actually happened to African American soldiers, then that would be great!

Iron man?, Tony Stark lives in modern day America and his ethnicity isnt important to his character, anyone can play him.

Bruce Banner?, same deal, have him played by a native American actor but keep the gamma bomb, the hulk being a native American spirit would be really Tokeny and steriotypical.

Black Widow as a Chinese woman?, Russia still isnt what you would call a multiethnic society and certianly wasnt during the cold war. Personally i feel that if a character is from a certain nation they should be kept as being from that nation as that shows cultural and historical diversity as well as ethnic diveristy.
If someone wanted to have an Avenger from China id prefer they use a preexisting Chinese Marvel Character, but China was a part of the Soviet Union and is still communist so you could still have Black Widow be Chinese and keep some of the essence of her character. She'd be like EVA from Metal Gear Solid.

 

[Vault101]

it could instread be Kirk- American Asian, Scotty-African, Chekov-Middle eastern, Uhura-Asian, Sulu Caucasian, Spock-Vulcan/African.

And still work.

yeah I agree....just for the purpose of the argument we were assuming just changing sulu which for OBVIOUS reasons would not be the equivalent of race lifting Kirk

 

[Thaluikhain]

Black Widow as a Chinese woman?, Russia still isnt what you would call a multiethnic society and certianly wasnt during the cold war. Personally i feel that if a character is from a certain nation they should be kept as being from that nation as that shows cultural and historical diversity as well as ethnic diveristy.
If someone wanted to have an Avenger from China id prefer they use a preexisting Chinese Marvel Character, but China was a part of the Soviet Union and is still communist so you could still have Black Widow be Chinese and keep some of the essence of her character. She'd be like EVA from Metal Gear Solid.

Wait what? China was part of the USSR?

Well, bits of them could be argued, I guess, during the border squabbles, otherwise, not so much.

Mongolia, OTOH, was. She could be Mongolian, you don't see many Mongolian heroes.

 

[carnex]

-snip-

My point was you can drop everything about the character and still use the name and still make a good product. Just as long as the copyright holder is OK with it. They are the jailers with a big stick

That Captain America is like that, but who said it's the only character that can have that name. You already said it yourself. Alternate universes allow everything. Even 10 incarnations of a same person fighting each other, So why not a movie like something I proposed.

You are invested in Marvel characters and that's all I talked about. They are important to you in who knows how many ways. I, however, don't really care so I could see them any way anyone could put them.

BTW, China never was a part of USSR. And they even became unfriendly after the Korean war and Mao's change in politics. Just to let you know,

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

Just to say that my point is that The purpose of Star Trek was to have a diverse cast with each one being representative of a nation or laegue of nations, so having Sulu be Caucasian would not be whitewashing him in a cast of white actors becuase ideally the rest of a cast would be diverse as well.

so each ethnic group and nation would be represented but becuase Star Trek has a completely multicultural and multiethnic society it doesnt have to go:

Kirk- caucasian, Scotty-caucasian, Chekov- Caucasian, Uhura-African, Sulu-Asian, Spock-Vulcan/caucasian.

it could instread be Kirk- American Asian, Scotty-African, Chekov-Middle eastern, Uhura-Asian, Sulu Caucasian, Spock-Vulcan/African.

And still work.

Ideally, yes. However, that's not going to happen, though, is it?

Sulu being white is a lot more likely than Kirk not being white.

Haha yes of course, I probably should have mentioned ive been talking in Ideals this entire time.

Its funny when these discussions come around people tend to call racist casting, Personally ive always found it hard to beleive that Hollywood producers, or at least the intelligent ones, cast or dont cast people out of racism.

These men believe in making money, and the fact is there is no money in racism, there is money in appealing to as many audiences as you can. They are however sacred of taking risks, and they have a very low opinion of audiences.
So the reason why we are more likely to get a caucasian Sulu than an asian or african american Kirk is becuase they dont think audiences will accept it, not becuase they are predjudiced themselves.

And when people lose their shit over things like Heimdal, a character no one gave a shit about until Idris Elba made him badass, being played by somone who wasnt norse, its kind of hard to blame them.

 

[mecegirl]

I understand that Uhura orignal character was historic for the progress of equality on screen, but the point i was trying to get at about Star Trek was that with all cultures being harmonic you could theoretically have Kirk played by an African for example and Uhura by someone Asian or Caucasian. As long as the cast was diverse, as was the point of the original show, would it matter which character was portrayed by an actor of which ethnicity? So the legacy of Uhura's character wouldnt strictly be tarred.

Why would anyone feel the need to change any of the characters in an adaptation of a show that is already diverse? The ethnicity and race of the characters doesn't matter as much in Star Trek, but that was intentional. The creators wanted to make a diverse cast because the show was set in the future, so they did. Tampering with that seems unnecessary. And since there have been other Star Trek shows. there have been multiple opportunities to create a cast with a different mix of genders, races, and ethnicites. Why bother with a Black James Kirk when Benjamin Sisko exists now?

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

it could instread be Kirk- American Asian, Scotty-African, Chekov-Middle eastern, Uhura-Asian, Sulu Caucasian, Spock-Vulcan/African.

And still work.

yeah I agree....just for the purpose of the argument we were assuming just changing sulu which for OBVIOUS reasons would not be the equivalent of race lifting Kirk

Of cource yeah, becuase Kirk is the protagonist who gets the most screen time and development.
This is part of the problem i think, when you have a smaller supporting character of an certain ethnicity representing a whole nation it can sometimes descend into tokenism, fortunately the original series and to the best part the reboot avodied that.

The new transformers film however did not, cant beleive Ken Wantanobe took that..

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

Black Widow as a Chinese woman?, Russia still isnt what you would call a multiethnic society and certianly wasnt during the cold war. Personally i feel that if a character is from a certain nation they should be kept as being from that nation as that shows cultural and historical diversity as well as ethnic diveristy.
If someone wanted to have an Avenger from China id prefer they use a preexisting Chinese Marvel Character, but China was a part of the Soviet Union and is still communist so you could still have Black Widow be Chinese and keep some of the essence of her character. She'd be like EVA from Metal Gear Solid.

Wait what? China was part of the USSR?

Well, bits of them could be argued, I guess, during the border squabbles, otherwise, not so much.

Mongolia, OTOH, was. She could be Mongolian, you don't see many Mongolian heroes.

Oh god yes my bad, did i say USSR? i thought it just had ties with the Soviet Union at points.

You have a point there, someone could write that!

 

[Thaluikhain]

Its funny when these discussions come around people tend to call racist casting, Personally ive always found it hard to beleive that Hollywood producers, or at least the intelligent ones, cast or dont cast people out of racism.

These men believe in making money, and the fact is there is no money in racism, there is money in appealing to as many audiences as you can. They are however sacred of taking risks, and they have a very low opinion of audiences.
So the reason why we are more likely to get a caucasian Sulu than an asian or african american Kirk is becuase they dont think audiences will accept it, not becuase they are predjudiced themselves.

I don't buy that. People don't suddenly become able to overcome their biases when they get in charge of that.

Now, presumably few of them would consciously decide on casting due to racism, but that's not to say that it doesn't happen.

Likewise, we all know that movie have to be about straight white guys, movies that aren't about straight white guys just don't work. Except for the ones that do, of course, in which case mumble mumble mumble. When a movie not about a straight white guy fails, it's because it's not about a straight white guy, when a movie that is about one fails, nothing to do with that.

 

[Vicount Tinselby]

-snip-

My point was you can drop everything about the character and still use the name and still make a good product. Just as long as the copyright holder is OK with it. They are the jailers with a big stick

That Captain America is like that, but who said it's the only character that can have that name. You already said it yourself. Alternate universes allow everything. Even 10 incarnations of a same person fighting each other, So why not a movie like something I proposed.

You are invested in Marvel characters and that's all I talked about. They are important to you in who knows how many ways. I, however, don't really care so I could see them any way anyone could put them.

BTW, China never was a part of USSR. And they even became unfriendly after the Korean war and Mao's change in politics. Just to let you know,

Yeah thats a fair point, i can talk about non marvel characters it was only because i was thinking about capt America before you mentioed 1890s avengers.

That was my Bad, i know they were never actually a part of the Soviet Union but assumed that they had ties at cetain points as territories around them were swallowed.