When the "vocal minority" begins to actually hurt us consumers.

[Raioken18]

Actually, Piracy on consoles is much higher than that of PC

I would like to see a source on that (non based on anecdotes), if you were so kind.

Have been looking for anything solid on this, so far have found nothing.

Honestly, I couldn't find solid numbers on it, I am just going by what a friend has told me and sales that he has been involved in.

While looking for some hard data though I did find this article on Forbs which you may be interested in that is some hard research that was done.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2013/05/15/finally-some-objective-figures-on-games-piracy/

Interesting, they still don't go into who does it the most. However I know of 3 stores within my district (within about 50km) that sell illegal copies of games (the two I've been to also do console repairs, just in case you were wondering).

So I think basing results entirely off P2P piracy would likely provide more PC skewed data than accurate overall data.
They also chip all current gen consoles, something I seriously considered because I've had to have an Xbox 360 repaired 8 times... which is just insane. (In the end the 3rd replacement they sent died after the warranty ran out so I gave up).

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

I don't even get why this conversation is really happening.

When you buy a PC or a Mac, you're not buying steam. You're never buying steam. If you don't connect, Steam doesn't limit all of your computer's functions until you connect online again. Sharing games? hell, you can legally do that now if you just have your friend's password and enough space to keep the game on your harddrive.

There's never been a gaming experience without drm. Please, let's get that correct now. We didn't have the term for it, but you had to buy the copy to install it. Then you had to put down a key to install it. Then you had to have the CD or DVD always in the drive to play it. We never lived in a DRM free environment.

However, Xbox One raised holy Hell not because they implemented something beyond DRM. It was the first system to cut everything off and completely limit your experience no matter what game you were playing, no matter if you were even playing the console, just because it made an arbitrary decision to cut off your ability to use the Xbox One as a gaming system if you didn't have constant online access.

That is not DRM. That is control. Get that right.

If transferring byte's worth of data once a DAY is constant internet access, then you are right, that's lame for ppl who like single player games. But that's not the case. Also if you mostly like single-player games you would be with the PS4 and their ghetto online services, which they are bribing you to subscribe for with 20+ indie games, anyway.

You always had a choice, if your internet is so bad that it goes off DAYS at a time, get a PS4. No one was forcing you to get an X1, I don't understand.

But thats what people were doing, in droves. The pre-order ratios varied between 2, 5 and possibly even 11 to 1 in favor of the PS4. Pundits declared that Sony 'won' E3, there were articles in military news services mourning that between the rule forbidding cameras in certain areas and the 24 hour check in meant that servicemen wouldn't be able to relax by playing video-games.

And then it got worse.

Don Mattrick and rest of the suits that inhabit Microsoft released contradictory statements, inadvertently insulting people without internet as well as military personnel, refused to clarify how the sharing 'feature' that meant such mandatory draconian DRM would be required would work, and to top it off rumors started appearing stating that the sharing would be a 60min demo which Microsoft refused to comment on (an ominous omen considering the Always On DRM rumors which swirled about before release which again MS refused to comment on).

All the while Sony were press releases amounted to 'You see what Microsoft are doing? Well we are not going to do that.' While releasing such gems as this:


Face it, it wasn't just the 'vocal minority,' it was the combination of negative press, their opponents response, flagging pre-orders compared to the PS4 and the fact that the negative PR was even leaking into mainstream news channels that helped MS go 'One-Eighty.'

 

[LetalisK]

Actually, Piracy on consoles is much higher than that of PC

I would like to see a source on that (non based on anecdotes), if you were so kind.

Have been looking for anything solid on this, so far have found nothing.

Honestly, I couldn't find solid numbers on it, I am just going by what a friend has told me and sales that he has been involved in.

While looking for some hard data though I did find this article on Forbs which you may be interested in that is some hard research that was done.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2013/05/15/finally-some-objective-figures-on-games-piracy/

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2012/09/22/gaming-piracy-separating-fact-from-fiction
http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2012/01/31/2011-game-piracy-observations-have-consoles-failed-the-piracy-litmus-test

Same guy doing both, trying to come up with some theories based on what data we do have available. To boil it down:
Console piracy is on the rise
PC piracy is on the decline
PC piracy is still more prevalent because of a greater PC base
They're still close to the same per capita

Though the part I wasn't aware of and makes me curious is that the PC community was that large in comparison to the console community. I thought any one console community dwarfed the PC gaming community.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

-snip-

Wow. I expected this from Undunn or one of the other MS shills but...

Microsofts 'Sharing' system reveal went sort of like this:

THIS IS OUR NEW SHARING SYSTEM.

DUE TO THE NEW SYSTEM ALL NEW CONSOLES WILL REQUIRE A MANDATORY 24 HOUR CHECK-IN EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE OUR NEW SYSTEM.

WE WILL NOT REVEAL ANY ADDITIONAL DETAILS ABOUT THE NEW SHARING SYSTEM AT THIS TIME.

ANY-ONE WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT THE NEW SYSTEM ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO RELIABLE INTERNET ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT WISH TO BUY AN XBOX ONE MAY BUY A 360, ALSO THEY ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

AND REMEMBER: THE COMPUTER MICROSOFT IS YOUR FRIEND.

props to anyone who figures out who I'm parodying.

At this point Valve's announcement is going like this:

Hey Guys! We are currently releasing a beta for a game sharing system, we are not changing any of our current DRM practices and here is a FAQ of how the system works. Is there any questions?

Yep, those two announcements are exactly the same.
/sarcasm

 

[Windcaler]

-snip-

Wow. I expected this from Undunn or one of the other MS shills but...

Microsofts 'Sharing' system reveal went sort of like this:

THIS IS OUR NEW SHARING SYSTEM.

DUE TO THE NEW SYSTEM ALL NEW CONSOLES WILL REQUIRE A MANDATORY 24 HOUR CHECK-IN EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE OUR NEW SYSTEM.

WE WILL NOT REVEAL ANY ADDITIONAL DETAILS ABOUT THE NEW SHARING SYSTEM AT THIS TIME.

ANY-ONE WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT THE NEW SYSTEM ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO RELIABLE INTERNET ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT WISH TO BUY AN XBOX ONE MAY BUY A 360, ALSO THEY ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

AND REMEMBER: THE COMPUTER MICROSOFT IS YOUR FRIEND.

props to anyone who figures out who I'm parodying.

At this point Valve's announcement is going like this:

Hey Guys! We are currently releasing a beta for a game sharing system, we are not changing any of our current DRM practices and here is a FAQ of how the system works. Is there any questions?

Yep, those two announcements are exactly the same.
/sarcasm

Love the paranoia reference

You're right though. The approach is what counts. I said earlier that if microsoft just did a tech demo to show us how their system works a lot of the negative press might go away. However they backed down to change their console (a fact that still needs to be confirmed when the xb1 is released) which is percieved as their plan being evil and anti-consumer from the get go

 

[TehCookie]

You conflate the issue by claiming Steam does not have an offline mode, so of course you have to clarify. That would be like me claiming my Xbox didn't let me play my games when the internet went out (which used to be a thing), and so we're again at the "same as consoles" scenario. No, you don't have to clarify what kind of games you're talking about when you say consoles vs Steam, but you do have to clarify when you're making general rants about no DRM vs DRM.

You might want to contact Valve, your Steam is malfunctioning, have heard that their costumer service is quite mediocre tough. Anyway, using system failures as arguments about it having no "offline mode" sounds quite fallacious.

I never said Steam doesn't have an offline mode, I said it only works when I set it to offline while I'm online. It doesn't work when my internet drops, and I'm not a psychic so I can't predict when it's going to.

Zachary, I didn't know the xbox has online DRM, I own a PS3 and Wii along with older ones and none of them have online DRM. Didn't know xbox was an exception, which if xbox owners had to use it for this entire gen I find the level of opposition to the xbone odd.

Tanakh, maybe my version of Steam is broken, I've had so many issues of it screwing with my games (deleting patches, installing updates when I told it not to, refusing to even run a game when the cracked version works so it's not my PC or the game). Most people told me that was normal.

 

[lapan]

The Xbox One wanted an all-online present and declared war on the traditional sense of ownership of console games. It deserved what it got.

But Steam has similarish online requirements, and long ago destroyed the concept of physical media on the PC platform. Why should consoles ignore the same future progress that came to PC years ago?

It doesn't. You effectively only have to be online for downloading the games and can then go to offline mode for as long as you please. A huge difference to daily checks.

The difference, such as it is, is that on the PC you can choose not to use Valve if you don't like their DRM scheme.

I'm not entirely sure we really have that choice any more. More and more publishers consider steam to be the "only" way to publish their titles, and release it solely through there. However Publishers ARE beginning to take note of this and the fact that it is not an ideal monopoly for either them or consumers, which is why we are seeing the roll out of things like EA's Origin, Ubisoft's UPlay, and Activision's upcomming platform.

Those examples have very similar DRM schemes though, so they are not really better alternatives

 

[Bat Vader]

The family sharing thing I thought was a pretty neat idea. It was the 24 hour check in DRM that was despised. Why should someone lose access to the games they paid for just because they were not connected to the internet for 24 hours?

 

[Tanakh]

Tanakh, maybe my version of Steam is broken, I've had so many issues of it screwing with my games (deleting patches, installing updates when I told it not to, refusing to even run a game when the cracked version works so it's not my PC or the game). Most people told me that was normal.

I can only speak for myself and my friends, but steam in my experience doesn't refuse to run games and runs flawlessly in offline mode regardless if I am online or not, used to have issues with the second part like 3 years ago, not anymore. Not quite sure of patches, the only game i have told steam not to update is skyrim and AFAIK it complied, but didn't paid that much attention.

Anyway, it does sound like your steam has issues, but again i have heard that the costumer service used to be quite bad, maybe they improved that too.

 

[Legion]

I refuse the notion based upon the fact that Microsoft chose to remove the features. If they had so much confidence in this being the most amazing step forward for gaming they'd have stuck with it. The fact they decided not to shows they clearly didn't have much faith in it in the first place.

If it was that much of a good idea they would have either shown us exactly why (which they repeatedly failed to do) or relied on the fact that once people had experienced it for themselves the word would get around how amazing it was.

Instead they decided to go for the safer option and remove it because they were so scared the PS4 might do a bit better at launch. They decided to cave in to the complaints and release something that only weeks earlier they had laughed at as being backwards.

If you are unhappy with Microsoft's decision to change the Xbox One, then blame them, because they are the ones who changed it, not the vocal minority. They cared about getting better immediate profits and a bit of positive PR (which they didn't because it made them a joke) instead of pushing forward with what they were trying to sell as the future of gaming.

 

[legendp]

You know, I've about had it with the hypocrisy of the vocal minority of gamers. I'm well aware it's a running joke of sorts, and one of the fundamentals of the internet (much like cat pictures) but it's still bullshit and it needs to stop.

Three months ago Microsoft tried to revolutionize the concept of digital distribution and content ownership by allowing unprecedented capabilities to share your digital downloads with family and friends. It was ground breaking and a huge step forward for moving towards an all digital model. The underpinnings of the digital rights management that were, for all intents and purposes required, to power this caused a completely RIDICULOUS amount of backlash. So much so, Microsoft reversed their position and removed said DRM, and a major casualty of that being we now LOST all that ground breaking functionality that would not work without the associated rights management.

Fast forward 3 months to now, and Valve announces the SAME functionality, and powers it with the SAME type of content control underpinnings, and they are hailed as the heroes of the industry and placed on a golden pedestal by the same people!

I love Valve, I love their products and I have great friends there who make great things, but this deification of them needs to bloody stop! So too does the knee jerk reactions towards any "big company" trying to do anything new and exciting. It used to be that the vocal minority was annoying but harmless, but with the Xbox One it's been proven that they are bad for the rest of us consumers, and are now holding back the industry from progress.

Thoughts?

revolutionary features? they where giving the middle finger to anyone with an unstable internet connection (I live in australia so almost the whole country of australia). Personally I much prefer the service gog, 100% drm free. I shouldn't have to jump through half a dozen hoops to lend my game to a friend. I can't rmember who it was, but they said "If you wanty to beat piracy you have to offer a better service", the thing is with the games industry thats hard to find.

Pirate a game and you can install it as many times as you want, mod it, and do not ever get "please swap to offline mode" message, I am not supporting pirating but the fact that it offer a better service in this day and age is ridiculous. GFWL is a perfect example of why the xbox one would be a bad idea, it is now closing and you can't do anything about it, if the xbox one servers had went down one day then the console would have become a brick.

 

[Duskflamer]

I never said Steam doesn't have an offline mode, I said it only works when I set it to offline while I'm online. It doesn't work when my internet drops, and I'm not a psychic so I can't predict when it's going to.

This used to be a fairly common issue, to the point that many people thought it was standard-issue rather than a bug, but Steam offline mode is supposed to work (and for most people, does work) even if you connection drops in the middle of a session, or even if you turn the computer on without a connection. If Steam refuses to go into offline mode unless you set it that way while online, you should contact support because that's not how it's supposed to work.

Another thought though, not sure if this applies to you or not, is that for offline mode to work like this, you have to have Steam saving your login details. If you're manually typing in your username and password every time you start up Steam, you won't be able to just access offline mode automatically.

 

[Bertylicious]

At the end of the day Microsoft rolled something out that people didn't want and then imposed it on people by saying that you had to have the thing online all the time.

Most of my friends are casual console gamers; they may only own half a dozen titles, which may just be 6 versions of Pro Evolution Soccer, and often do not use, nor have any desire to use, online services. The very idea of playing a game with someone who is not in the room with you strikes them as non-sensical. I'm a PC gamer and I happen to be online whenever my PC is on, yet Steam offers me the choice to be online or not whereas the XBox One did not offer that choice to it's users.

The key word here is "choice", but I'd be a hell of a lot more likely to want make that choice than the people I know who are console users.

 

[Smeatza]

Wasn't the Xbox One game sharing service just a glorified demo service? I'm sure I read on the news feed on this site that the service was going to have time limits on it.
The leaks I've seen for valve's game sharing service implies that it'll be so much more.

Plus there's the rather major platform difference.
DRM has been an accepted but much hated feature of PC gaming for at least a decade now. it's quite understandable that console gamers don't want their market to go in the same direction.

It's all kind of beside the point though, as Microsoft's decision to remove the feature was basically them saying " well if you're going to be like that I'm going home and I'm taking my ball with me."

 

[Kenmoo]

You know, I've about had it with the hypocrisy of the vocal minority of gamers. I'm well aware it's a running joke of sorts, and one of the fundamentals of the internet (much like cat pictures) but it's still bullshit and it needs to stop.

Three months ago Microsoft tried to revolutionize the concept of digital distribution and content ownership by allowing unprecedented capabilities to share your digital downloads with family and friends. It was ground breaking and a huge step forward for moving towards an all digital model. The underpinnings of the digital rights management that were, for all intents and purposes required, to power this caused a completely RIDICULOUS amount of backlash. So much so, Microsoft reversed their position and removed said DRM, and a major casualty of that being we now LOST all that ground breaking functionality that would not work without the associated rights management.

Fast forward 3 months to now, and Valve announces the SAME functionality, and powers it with the SAME type of content control underpinnings, and they are hailed as the heroes of the industry and placed on a golden pedestal by the same people!

I love Valve, I love their products and I have great friends there who make great things, but this deification of them needs to bloody stop! So too does the knee jerk reactions towards any "big company" trying to do anything new and exciting. It used to be that the vocal minority was annoying but harmless, but with the Xbox One it's been proven that they are bad for the rest of us consumers, and are now holding back the industry from progress.

Thoughts?

Your biggest mistake is that you say the functionality is exactly the same. Which it isn't. Other posters before me explained the big differences such as 24 hour checkin.

I don't like DRM. I don't use itunes anymore as it really gets in my way of managing my music library and music players. Steam so far has dutifully reinstalled my games a billion times each time i bought a new computer or hard a computer crash while i was out working and the days of steam being a pile of shit are long, LONG, LOOOOONG gone.

you can still use desura, gog and many others or just buy the copy in a shop.

 

[Rastrelly]

Two points:
1) The term "vocal minority" is nonsensical. If you've ever seen vocal majority, let me know. Basically, becoming "vocal" means "being dissatisfied". Satisfied consumer will never be "vocal".
2) Being in minority and being wrong are two separate things. M$ tried to "revolutionize" something that didn't need anything revolutionary.

 

[Tallim]

-snip-

Wow. I expected this from Undunn or one of the other MS shills but...

Microsofts 'Sharing' system reveal went sort of like this:

THIS IS OUR NEW SHARING SYSTEM.

DUE TO THE NEW SYSTEM ALL NEW CONSOLES WILL REQUIRE A MANDATORY 24 HOUR CHECK-IN EVEN IF YOU DON'T USE OUR NEW SYSTEM.

WE WILL NOT REVEAL ANY ADDITIONAL DETAILS ABOUT THE NEW SHARING SYSTEM AT THIS TIME.

ANY-ONE WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT THE NEW SYSTEM ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO RELIABLE INTERNET ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

ANY-ONE WHO DOES NOT WISH TO BUY AN XBOX ONE MAY BUY A 360, ALSO THEY ARE MUTANT-COMMIE TRAITORS.

AND REMEMBER: THE COMPUTER MICROSOFT IS YOUR FRIEND.

props to anyone who figures out who I'm parodying.

At this point Valve's announcement is going like this:

Hey Guys! We are currently releasing a beta for a game sharing system, we are not changing any of our current DRM practices and here is a FAQ of how the system works. Is there any questions?

Yep, those two announcements are exactly the same.
/sarcasm

Paranoia! Hehe so many many good memories and fun times. I haven't run that in ages and I really should get that going again as it is so much fun.

 

[Funyahns]

Why would anyone trust microsoft enough to go digital fully with them? They can still implement all their plans for digital while still having discs. Then maybe after this generation if they have enough good will towards consumers(Really a laughable proposition) Then perhaps people will trust them enough. Also, I can by my digital PC games from several different places. If Xbox is selling digital games can I buy them from different stores online? Or will it all be a Microsoft shop?

I signed the petition for Xbox one to go back to its other format though! I wanted to see Sony kill Microsoft this generation just for a laugh.

Oh and just because people don't support the same stuff that you want does not make them vocal minority. Look in the mirror for that.