Where is your gaming Line in the Sand?

[rob_simple]

I lose interest in a series as soon as it does something I don't like/feel it doesn't need. Best example: When Insomniac decided to shoehorn forced multiplayer gimmicks into the Ratchet & Clank series I stopped playing instantly. I still bought the HD collection because I love those games and I do like Insomniac as a company, but I'm not willing to support something I don't believe is necessary.

The difference between myself and many fans, however, is that I don't take it as a personal affront when developers do things like this. It does upset me when they do things like forced multiplayer because it automatically locks out those of us who only play solo, but I know I'll always have the older games to play, and there is nothing to say they won't make a new game I like in the future.

In the case of A:CM I think people were right to feel cheated/entitled, because they were flat-out lied to by the developer, but when Ninja Theory changed things up for DmC (not necessarily for the worse, but just not exactly the same as the last three games) the people who were trying to organise boycotts and who had crucified the game before a demo had even dropped were just god damn pathetic and needed to grow the hell up.

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

ah, i remember the days, there were add-ons, not dlc- add ons which did really did add to the game, eg the expansion pack lord of destruction for diablo 2.

well, disc locked content kann mir mal ganz gepflengt den arsch küssen, vielleicht findet es da ja geld weil ich das anscheinend ausscheiße. *hust* back to topic and back to english "ranting."

well and i am NOT very fond-like some other user here-of the reduced singe-player mode. i wont pay 60? for a game which only has 4 hours single campaign and then pay MORE money to play it online (fuck you, microsoft, fuck you hard for trying to sell me what i can have without cost if i use my ps3)-thats the reason why i buy multiplayer-stuff only for ps3.

and-i want to touch my...cds. i dont like e-reader, i like to touch -and smell my books and i like to touch my CD/DVDs etc an smell the scent of a newly unpacked CD, smells adventourus. and chemical.

well, mandatory-online-drm is stuff i just wont buy PERIOD

thats sad because, well i loved diablo 2, i wasted month while slashing demons and impaling them with my both of my nice, wonderful, masterfully shaped, round but pointed... katars
sigh, maybe i get this to work on my new pc..i think i´d give it a try

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

ah, i remember the days, there were add-ons, not dlc- add ons which did really did add to the game, eg the expansion pack lord of destruction for diablo 2.

One of the best points ever. I take back what I just said about DLCs. Add-ons. Add-ons really, REALLY made a game worth while.

Add-ons of Actual new campaigns instead of a new set piece which lasts maybe an hour or so max. GTA IV might not be my favorite game, but it's one of the last games in recent history that gave us bang for our buck. Ballad for Gay Tony and the Lost and the Damned completely gave you new experiences. DLCS now don't really compare.

snip

Welcome to the club! My line got leapt over quite a while ago with the introduction of DLC. I still remember the days when a game had to be finished in the box or the company went under. Because there were no patching systems. The games industry has become so lazy its beyond excuse or forgiveness. I eventually realized its a cycle. They rely on young gamers spending without checking. Its the basis of the entire business. Once you've been a customer your no longer in the demographic. Its always the next customer they want to impress. It doesn't matter how many people they piss off. As for a solution? I don't see one except for finding other things to fill the time. I still game, but I have hundreds of games. Its quite easy to hold back from a new release. Grats on breaking the cycle! Things do get better from here.

You guys better have copious amounts of pie in this club. I plan to rage eat forever.

 

[Little Gray]

I will straight up say it I dont think game companies owe you fuck all.

They create a product and you either buy it or you dont buy it. Its not like they are threatening to kill your family if you dont. If you buy it then you will either like or or not but either way it was your choice to buy the game.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

I will straight up say it I dont think game companies owe you fuck all.

They create a product and you either buy it or you dont buy it. Its not like they are threatening to kill your family if you dont. If you buy it then you will either like or or not but either way it was your choice to buy the game.

We completely agree with you.

However, what we're saying is that we're tired of putting up with shit that we don't like. No one thinks the companies owe us anything... other than a little respect. That's how business works. You court your demographic. Not call them thieves, insert clauses everywhere to allow them to spy on their customers and pull their product when they feel it's warranted, or just give us shit and expect us to be happy with it.

Again, you're absolutely right. They don't owe us fuck all. The same that we don't owe them fuck all. The difference is this; you, me, and every poster in this thread can walk away and do something else with our time. The companies can not. If the vast majority of customers walk away, the companies close. It isn't a threat. If they don't give us a product we like, we're not going to buy it just to keep the industry alive.

So, to keep the relationship going, I see no harm in publicly declaring what we want to see in games. Where we are just displeased and want to see it fixed before we invest anything else in this medium.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I'm one of the biggest Halo fans this planet has ever known. I've bought the games, read the books, collected (some) of the comics, and even spent a couple of years drawing a Halo webcomic.

And now I live in a world, where Halo 5 is not a definite purchase, and certainly not a pre-order. I think Halo 4 was my "line in the sand". When you strip out core features that have been in place since 2007, when you populate your game with enemies so boring that I long for Flood encounters, when you take three years to release a game that still somehow feels rushed and has a crippled file share and theater mode... well you tell me that you don't understand what is expected when you put the word HALO on the box. And you tell me that you don't deserve the loyalty you claim to covet. You tell me you are blind to what made Halo special in the first place.

And how. Seriously, some things just don't feel as right with Halo 4 as they should. Sure, the campaign's story is pretty good, and the Master Chief/Cortana interactions are top notch. Sure, Spartan Ops is a pretty fine mode with a lot of interesting aspects to it. But now it seems like fighting the Covenant has become monotone, and the Promethean enemies can just be plain unfun to fight, period. And the UNSC is so very different from the organization we knew and fought for in the previous Halo trilogy. From a visual design perspective to a political perspective, they just don't feel right anymore. Even the new Spartans feel wrong: they're as unprofessional as a bunch of High School jocks with jack-shit for discipline.

Then we've got the mechanical flaws that SHOULD NOT have happened. The file share system should have been fine: it should've been lifted from Reach without issue. Then there's the things like a fucked up custom game option set, which artificially limits a bunch of things that we were able to do in the previous games just fine, like placing weapon spawns on the map in infection, and having multiple options for forced color traits. Then we've got tools missing from the Forge toolbox that should not have been missing, like Monitor Binocular-Zoom and The Precision Editing Controls, which were in the previous Forge, which they seem to have lifted wholesale from Reach, so why the fucking fuck didn't these features come with? Did some asshat on the dev team say "Oh, well we got magnets, so we don't need that shit anymore"? This is fundamental structural shit people, and when they got it right in Halo 3 it was one of the reasons why the game succeeded so much. That game was pretty much the zenith of the Halo franchise, and it seems that the people want that lightning to strike again, but have no idea how or why it had the impact that it did.

And by the way, your Halo comic strip was terrific. It was the right blend of topical, punchy, well-drawn, and most of all, funny. You should be proud of that work. Another Halo Comic Strip was an achievement, and I hope you find that kind of success again.

 

[RicoADF]

Westwood or whatever it's being called these days. The creators of command and conquer. I love strategy games. Hell 40% of all games I've ever owned have probably been strategy. Command and conquer was the series that got me into them and I loved it. I had C&C, red alert, red alert 2 and yuri's revenge. But when I played tiberium sun I started to get worried. It started to lose something about it. The original gams had some level of seriousness to them but after red alert, it just started to become a joke under EAs leadership. I ended up geting C&C3 and I have never regretted a single purchase more. It just wasn't C&C anymore. I just couldn't enjoy it anymore and I haven't been bothered since with the series. Every now and then I look at a review, but until it goes back to a more adult theme, I just don't care.

Side note, I did play and enjoy generals. It was close to being kiddy but seemed to stay on the adult line just enough.

It went C&C1 - Red Alert 1 - Tiberian Sun - Red Alert 2 - etc. EA took over from Red Alert 2 onwards, C&C3 wasn't made by Westwood as they left and made a company called Petroglyph. They've made Empire at War and Universe at War.

 

[Windcaler]

I will straight up say it I dont think game companies owe you fuck all.

They create a product and you either buy it or you dont buy it. Its not like they are threatening to kill your family if you dont. If you buy it then you will either like or or not but either way it was your choice to buy the game.

You're right, they dont owe us anything. However as a business they need to understand that pleasing their customers is in their best interest. Were talking about consequences here. The best example of this IMO is the DMC fiasco where Ninja theory outright trolled Devil may cry fans while they did their reboot. Ignoring and even misconstruing constructive criticism from many fans, saying that our dislike of the dumbed down combat system, or dickish nature of this new Dante didnt appeal to us was really "just about the hair." It was freaking rediculous because the fans of that game were the ones who bought the last ones. They made that reboot happen and if they didnt matter they wouldnt have called the game Devil may cry. You know what the result was? In the predicted sales the game bombed. It did well enough on its own by bringing in new fans and is probably going to get a sequel but their predictions last I heard were 1.2 million sales short. Not calculating for taxes, expenses, currency differences, publisher/developer shares, etc thats 72 million dollars of potentially lost revenue and its mostly because of ninja theory acting like a bunch of jerks.

While were on that subject thats another line in the sand for me. If a developer or publisher treats me in such a way where I think theyre just a jerk then Ill straight up boycott them. I try to be very fair with people, I try to give constructive criticism, and I try to be respectful to everyone. When someone pisses that away by saying my issue is really about some aesthetic choice then screw them. If they wont show me the same respect I show them they dont deserve me as a customer. I at least have enough self respect and belief in my principles to stick to a boycott

 

[Little Gray]

I will straight up say it I dont think game companies owe you fuck all.

They create a product and you either buy it or you dont buy it. Its not like they are threatening to kill your family if you dont. If you buy it then you will either like or or not but either way it was your choice to buy the game.

You're right, they dont owe us anything. However as a business they need to understand that pleasing their customers is in their best interest. Were talking about consequences here. The best example of this IMO is the DMC fiasco where Ninja theory outright trolled Devil may cry fans while they did their reboot. Ignoring and even misconstruing constructive criticism from many fans, saying that our dislike of the dumbed down combat system, or dickish nature of this new Dante didnt appeal to us was really "just about the hair." It was freaking rediculous because the fans of that game were the ones who bought the last ones. They made that reboot happen and if they didnt matter they wouldnt have called the game Devil may cry. You know what the result was? In the predicted sales the game bombed. It did well enough on its own by bringing in new fans and is probably going to get a sequel but their predictions last I heard were 1.2 million sales short. Not calculating for taxes, expenses, currency differences, publisher/developer shares, etc thats 72 million dollars of potentially lost revenue and its mostly because of ninja theory acting like a bunch of jerks.

While were on that subject thats another line in the sand for me. If a developer or publisher treats me in such a way where I think theyre just a jerk then Ill straight up boycott them. I try to be very fair with people, I try to give constructive criticism, and I try to be respectful to everyone. When someone pisses that away by saying my issue is really about some aesthetic choice then screw them. If they wont show me the same respect I show them they dont deserve me as a customer. I at least have enough self respect and belief in my principles to stick to a boycott

The thing is it was the hair that made most of the fans hate the reboot. They started declaring it crap before they knew anything about the game beyond dantes new look. The fans proved that they were shallow, immature, worthless sacks of shit before the game came out. Of course the developer calling them out on that didnt really help the situation.

 

[bullet_sandw1ch]

I'm one of the biggest Halo fans this planet has ever known. I've bought the games, read the books, collected (some) of the comics, and even spent a couple of years drawing a Halo webcomic.

And now I live in a world, where Halo 5 is not a definite purchase, and certainly not a pre-order. I think Halo 4 was my "line in the sand". When you strip out core features that have been in place since 2007, when you populate your game with enemies so boring that I long for Flood encounters, when you take three years to release a game that still somehow feels rushed and has a crippled file share and theater mode... well you tell me that you don't understand what is expected when you put the word HALO on the box. And you tell me that you don't deserve the loyalty you claim to covet. You tell me you are blind to what made Halo special in the first place.

i think youre focusing on what was established in the previous trilogy too much. theyre basically different games, just with connecting characters. of course theyre going to strip away halo "staples", they want to distinguish themselves from the original trilogy. and RUSHED? halo 4 is polished to a shine that is rivalled by only valve and the crysis series. what was rushed about the visuals that made crysis blush, the gunplay that made Half life look sluggish, and the sound effects that are up there with the best. halo 4 is nowhere near my favourite game, but credit is due for the technical work in that game.

 

[Windcaler]

I will straight up say it I dont think game companies owe you fuck all.

They create a product and you either buy it or you dont buy it. Its not like they are threatening to kill your family if you dont. If you buy it then you will either like or or not but either way it was your choice to buy the game.

You're right, they dont owe us anything. However as a business they need to understand that pleasing their customers is in their best interest. Were talking about consequences here. The best example of this IMO is the DMC fiasco where Ninja theory outright trolled Devil may cry fans while they did their reboot. Ignoring and even misconstruing constructive criticism from many fans, saying that our dislike of the dumbed down combat system, or dickish nature of this new Dante didnt appeal to us was really "just about the hair." It was freaking rediculous because the fans of that game were the ones who bought the last ones. They made that reboot happen and if they didnt matter they wouldnt have called the game Devil may cry. You know what the result was? In the predicted sales the game bombed. It did well enough on its own by bringing in new fans and is probably going to get a sequel but their predictions last I heard were 1.2 million sales short. Not calculating for taxes, expenses, currency differences, publisher/developer shares, etc thats 72 million dollars of potentially lost revenue and its mostly because of ninja theory acting like a bunch of jerks.

While were on that subject thats another line in the sand for me. If a developer or publisher treats me in such a way where I think theyre just a jerk then Ill straight up boycott them. I try to be very fair with people, I try to give constructive criticism, and I try to be respectful to everyone. When someone pisses that away by saying my issue is really about some aesthetic choice then screw them. If they wont show me the same respect I show them they dont deserve me as a customer. I at least have enough self respect and belief in my principles to stick to a boycott

The thing is it was the hair that made most of the fans hate the reboot. They started declaring it crap before they knew anything about the game beyond dantes new look. The fans proved that they were shallow, immature, worthless sacks of shit before the game came out. Of course the developer calling them out on that didnt really help the situation.

Incorrect. Ninja theory did that to all of us not most of us. When I said I wasnt interested in the game because I didnt care for the character they said "its about the hair". When I said I didnt like the linear nature of the game they said "its about the hair!". When I said I thought the combo system was shallow and unchallenging they said "its about the hair!". Screw that noise. It wasnt ever about the hair it was about them making a devil may cry game that was not what I wanted out of a devil may cry game. If they had just said nothing I would have just not bought the game but when they decided to troll me they earned my undying ire. The consequence for their actions is at least 1 customer will never give them a cent and they have no one to blame but themselves. The DMC fans did not force them to their computers at gun point to type "its about the hair!"

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

I'm one of the biggest Halo fans this planet has ever known. I've bought the games, read the books, collected (some) of the comics, and even spent a couple of years drawing a Halo webcomic.

And now I live in a world, where Halo 5 is not a definite purchase, and certainly not a pre-order. I think Halo 4 was my "line in the sand". When you strip out core features that have been in place since 2007, when you populate your game with enemies so boring that I long for Flood encounters, when you take three years to release a game that still somehow feels rushed and has a crippled file share and theater mode... well you tell me that you don't understand what is expected when you put the word HALO on the box. And you tell me that you don't deserve the loyalty you claim to covet. You tell me you are blind to what made Halo special in the first place.

i think youre focusing on what was established in the previous trilogy too much. theyre basically different games, just with connecting characters. of course theyre going to strip away halo "staples", they want to distinguish themselves from the original trilogy. and RUSHED? halo 4 is polished to a shine that is rivalled by only valve and the crysis series. what was rushed about the visuals that made crysis blush, the gunplay that made Half life look sluggish, and the sound effects that are up there with the best. halo 4 is nowhere near my favourite game, but credit is due for the technical work in that game.

This is largely subjective so I'm not inclined to get into an argument with you. But I'll say my go-to line when discussing this game. When you put Halo on the box, you get 2 things. You get the loyalty that the brand has established over the years which comes with sales and (usually) good critical reception. You also get the expectations that you have to live up to. And Halo 4 did not live up to my expectations. Not by a damn sight.

I can provide the bullet points of my disappointment if you like, but it's probably well worn territory by this point.

And by the way, your Halo comic strip was terrific. It was the right blend of topical, punchy, well-drawn, and most of all, funny. You should be proud of that work. Another Halo Comic Strip was an achievement, and I hope you find that kind of success again.

That is very kind of you to say. I really appreciate that.

 

[Karoshi]

Where does this unshakeable belief come from that developers are doing their best to screw us over? DLC and DRM - yeah, I can buy it. But to ruin a game just because they want to see fanboys rage..?

Look, I don't even believe Bioware fucked up ME3 on purpose. They wanted to make the coolest game ever, but somehow it flopped in their face. Making games is hard. Sometimes despite good intention they end up in the sewer. I'm still bitter about it, but don't believe they were actively sabotaging me.

Same goes for many things.

 

[Gorden Springel]

But these are my thoughts, my woes. Yours are not like mine. Have you reached the point where you are standing in defiance, waiting for companies to treat you like respected customers again? If so, what was the last disappointment that made you cross that line? If you haven't gotten there yet, do you have any idea what would it take for you to take those steps over? Or even better, do you feel like people who feel like me are not justified? And why?

Starcraft 2 getting rid of a custom games list? Wtf was that. Of course it doesnt end there, Diablo 3 which I was so excited for I took the week off work to play, horrible let down. The game itself is fun but my god Blizzard, again no custom games list? Terribly balanced skills? I mean come on, when 90% of your skills arent being used, perhaps consider fixing them? Its not bloody hard, improve some numbers until your shitty runes can compete with the good ones. I will now never buy another Blizzard game until it has been proven good to me and doesnt try to cut out features which MADE the game fun (starcraft 2 custom game list). I honestly cannot fathom why it was removed, custom maps were THE best part of starcraft and warcraft 3, and being able to make a game and name it was core part of what added depth to custom maps, not everyone is a pro/newb so trying to make a balanced game is impossible when you just throw a bunch of random people together. Seriously, how much fun would you have if you got thrown together with people vastly above your skill level in the actual game? Not very damn much, im just so incredibly dissapointed it still makes me pissed after all this time...

 

[Windcaler]

Where does this unshakeable belief come from that developers are doing their best to screw us over? DLC and DRM - yeah, I can buy it. But to ruin a game just because they want to see fanboys rage..?

Look, I don't even believe Bioware fucked up ME3 on purpose. They wanted to make the coolest game ever, but somehow it flopped in their face. Making games is hard. Sometimes despite good intention they end up in the sewer. I'm still bitter about it, but don't believe they were actively sabotaging me.

Same goes for many things.

A company does not have to have an anti-consumer business philosophy to put an anti-consumer business decision in effect. Every company makes some stupid mistakes now and then and its important that we consumers stand up and say "this is not ok and heres why". Thats what this thread is for, to say "here is what I will not accept and heres why". Companies dont have to conform or agree to any opinion put out by any consumer but as I mentioned earlier its about consequences. If they dont release products we want to buy with business practices that we agree with they arent going to get our money.

I think thats reasonable

 

[King Billi]

I don't have one... Not yet at any rate and given past experience I don't think I ever will.

Call me easy to please I guess...

I've never felt that the price I've paid for any game was not worth it or that any developer has in any way lied to me or cheated me out of anything. I've never ever believed a game developer was personally attacking me or blaming me or calling me entitled. Honestly who cares what they have to say.

If I don't like a game I don't buy it and I only pay for DLC that I personally think looks interesting... oftentimes it isn't anything special but what the hell I'm the one taking that risk.

I bought Mass Effect 3 and was absolutely satisfied with every second of what it offered so much so that when it was finished I honestly didn't want it to end and so almsot right away bought the first Mass Effect from the PSN and continued playing right from the beginning... We'll just have to see if my thoughts change when I reach the ending a second time won't we..?

So all in all no worries from me... except to occasionally wonder why some things I don't have any problem with are often causing such distress and controversy amongst my fellow gamers... It's really quite unfortunate.

 

[Joccaren]

I've drawn my line with several companies.

Bioware's had its line drawn after DA2 and ME3, both of which were massive disappointments in their entirety that I regret purchasing. It also taught me to always trust the negative parts of Demos. If there's something wrong in the demo, it will NOT be fixed in the final product.

DICE have had the line drawn for BF3. Graphically great, otherwise thoroughly meh. A large part of its problem is map design, but also the scaled back destruction and such so that consoles could handle it, the lack of balance a lot of the time, and the lack of a fair bit of distinction between the classes so you had assault, assault, assault and sniper/assault, just with different on-the-side abilities.

Gearbox... DNF and A:CM. All that needs to be said I hope.

Really, I want to put Ubisoft on this list too for the shitty DRM they use, and their general disregard of PC gamers, but outside of the AC series I actually enjoy a number of their games, and as much as I hate some things they do, I also love some, so I'm kinda on the fence about it.

 

[Zealous]

Anything with crazy DRM (or any kind really).
Bioware for DA and ME.
343 for Halo 4.
Generic MMSes are off the table.
Diablo franchise I guess (not all of Blizzard's stuff though).

I dunno. There's probably more, I just can't think of anything at the moment.

Oh and I won't buy any DLC that comes out within the first six months of a games release (unless it's part of a GOTY bundle that comes out at least a year after the initial release).

Edit: Gearbox too I guess. I enjoyed both Borderlands, but I'm keeping my eye on them. Three strikes and they're out.

 

[spartandude]

EA is on my list, its absolute shitty business practices, the way it treats its consumers, no singleplayer games published and making all thier games the same thing

also anything with always online DRM (unless it is something like an MMO) as my internet connection can be shocking at times. this doesnt apply to just one company but any product that has it

 

[Mausthemighty]

You are the worst type of person.

I mean, seriously? They deliver you a solid thirty hours of great characters, gameplay, technical mastery, and an utter feeling that the world you've invested so much in is well and truly being ripped apart by Reapers, and you fixate upon the last ten minutes? And then, when they announce that they want to keep exploring this unimaginably rich universe without making cash cow sequels but honest expansions, you call them sellouts? Fuck this entitled noise.

Oh, and by the way? That "multiplayer dlc" they made to "cash in on"? It was free, Sherlock. They did it because they wan to support the community, not because they wanted to make money.

Dude. Don't act like you know everything about me and have any right to judge me and call me names.

The question was what was the last time you decided to draw the line. I was talking about that.

What they did do was take two franchises (DA and ME) and ruin them for me by releasing a rushed game (DA2) and not delivering on their promises (ME3).

Oh and btw: I didn't mean the free Extended Cut DLC that was supposed to patch the endings. I meant the Citadel DLC, the Omega DLC, the Leviathan DLC and all the weapon packs/skins for which you need to pay.

"A solid thirty hours of great characters etc indeed". And it was all ruined because someone decided that it was a good idea to take away all of my choices and decisions from the previous games and let me choose between three similar endings with different colors. That is my main reason for hating the endings.

It is clear that you obviously love Bioware to a fault and feel the need to throw money at them unconditionally. That's your choice.

But for me it is over. I want to buy good products not faulty products. They won't get any money from me anymore.

"You don't have any right to judge me," he says, after giving us every reason to in his first post.

"You obviously love Bioware unconditionally and need to throw money at them", he also says, trying to backpedal and clarify himself after the fact.

Delicious.

If you want us to respect your opinions and responses, then write your opinions clearer and with more thought.

Are we reading the same forumpost here? I wasn't backpedalling. I didn't like how Dragon Age 2 was made and how Mass Effect 3 ending was handled (even with the new endings it's still a broken ending for me). A good ending is very important for me to enjoy the story. A sudden "Deus ex machina" (the Star Child) which breaks all logic doesn't make it a good ending and especially not if your choices don't matter much.

I never said Bioware was a bad company. They made really good games which I still love to play. I don't like the way they are going with their games (in terms of quality). If I feel their games have been a let-down (two times now) I have the right as a consumer of their products to choose not to buy from them again.

And please don't write about me in third person, it sounds really pedantic and belittling if you write it that way.