Where is your gaming Line in the Sand?

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Sethzard

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Dec 22, 2007
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Little Duck said:
Westwood or whatever it's being called these days. The creators of command and conquer. I love strategy games. Hell 40% of all games I've ever owned have probably been strategy. Command and conquer was the series that got me into them and I loved it. I had C&C, red alert, red alert 2 and yuri's revenge. But when I played tiberium sun I started to get worried. It started to lose something about it. The original gams had some level of seriousness to them but after red alert, it just started to become a joke under EAs leadership. I ended up geting C&C3 and I have never regretted a single purchase more. It just wasn't C&C anymore. I just couldn't enjoy it anymore and I haven't been bothered since with the series. Every now and then I look at a review, but until it goes back to a more adult theme, I just don't care.

Side note, I did play and enjoy generals. It was close to being kiddy but seemed to stay on the adult line just enough.
Do you mean Tiberium sun becasue that came out before Red alert 2. I personally quite enjoyed C&C3. Red Alert 3 was a huge dissapointment for me and then C&C4 was one of the worst RTS games I've played. I'm not going to bother with their stuff.
I don't really have anything that I've drawn a line in the sand about, but I probably won't bother getting anything else related to AC or COD, both are games which I genuinely enjoyed. I also probably won't get any more gearbox products other than borderlands. After two massive stinkers it just seems like a waste.
 

Mid Boss

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2012
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I'm getting so sick of the money grubbing BS hovering over gaming as a whole. My line has been trampled on so many times I can't even make it out in the sand anymore. Remember when you could look at the majority of gaming companies and couldn't think of a time when they actively and knowingly tried to screw you over?

I miss those days. The early days. Before DLC. Before DRM. Before mandatory updates. Before everyone decided to blame their woes on used game sales. Before mandatory contracts stating that you don't "own" the system you paid for and they can remove any and all functionality any time they want.

I find myself playing my pre PS3 era video games more and more because I miss those simpler times. When you could go, buy a game, bring it home, and play it and that was the beginning, middle, and end of the story.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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Gurgleflob said:
J Tyran said:
Professor Lupin Madblood said:
I mean, seriously? They deliver you a solid thirty hours of great characters, gameplay, technical mastery, and an utter feeling that the world you've invested so much in is well and truly being ripped apart by Reapers, and you fixate upon the last ten minutes? And then, when they announce that they want to keep exploring this unimaginably rich universe without making cash cow sequels but honest expansions, you call them sellouts? Fuck this entitled noise.
To some extents I totally agree, ME3 was great. It had the best mechanics and combat in the series, in its own right its a capable and solid third person shooter. Compare it to Gears, ME3 had more guns, weapon customization and the customization biotic and tech powers. The gunplay and variety of enemies created many ways of dealing with the different threats and situations are varied and fun to experiment with.

The story is OK there where some great moments in there, killing Mordin, Tali trying to kill Legion and so on. One thing annoys me with a lot of people that complain about ME3 is when they say "my choices didn't matter" well guess what? They did, sure not in the end of Mass Effect 3 so much but because the whole of ME3 is the bloody ending. Shepard finally (one way or the other) settles the conflict between the Geth and Quarians, he deals with Krogan and the genophage (one way or the other) and he finally brings down Cerberus.

The whole game was about tying up all the story arcs from the previous games as much as it was about fighting the Reapers, my mind boggles as to why people cant see that. The game shit the bed in the last 30 mins or so though, it wasn't just the Star Child. I was expecting to see an ME2 suicide mission style attack on earth where you got to choose and deploy some of the different units you collected along the way, even a tense Ilos and Citadel run would have been better than what we got.

Up until then the game was good, I can see how the end and the Star Child might have angered people enough to hate the whole game though but still it didn't retroactively go back in time and remove any fun the players might have had.
SPOILERS.

I don't even care if i get a warning, fuck you.
Games been out nearly a year now, I would have put spoiler tags otherwise so untwist your panties. No need for the potty mouth either.
 

Gurgleflob

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Jun 29, 2012
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J Tyran said:
Gurgleflob said:
J Tyran said:
Professor Lupin Madblood said:
I mean, seriously? They deliver you a solid thirty hours of great characters, gameplay, technical mastery, and an utter feeling that the world you've invested so much in is well and truly being ripped apart by Reapers, and you fixate upon the last ten minutes? And then, when they announce that they want to keep exploring this unimaginably rich universe without making cash cow sequels but honest expansions, you call them sellouts? Fuck this entitled noise.
To some extents I totally agree, ME3 was great. It had the best mechanics and combat in the series, in its own right its a capable and solid third person shooter. Compare it to Gears, ME3 had more guns, weapon customization and the customization biotic and tech powers. The gunplay and variety of enemies created many ways of dealing with the different threats and situations are varied and fun to experiment with.

The story is OK there where some great moments in there, killing Mordin, Tali trying to kill Legion and so on. One thing annoys me with a lot of people that complain about ME3 is when they say "my choices didn't matter" well guess what? They did, sure not in the end of Mass Effect 3 so much but because the whole of ME3 is the bloody ending. Shepard finally (one way or the other) settles the conflict between the Geth and Quarians, he deals with Krogan and the genophage (one way or the other) and he finally brings down Cerberus.

The whole game was about tying up all the story arcs from the previous games as much as it was about fighting the Reapers, my mind boggles as to why people cant see that. The game shit the bed in the last 30 mins or so though, it wasn't just the Star Child. I was expecting to see an ME2 suicide mission style attack on earth where you got to choose and deploy some of the different units you collected along the way, even a tense Ilos and Citadel run would have been better than what we got.

Up until then the game was good, I can see how the end and the Star Child might have angered people enough to hate the whole game though but still it didn't retroactively go back in time and remove any fun the players might have had.
SPOILERS.

I don't even care if i get a warning, fuck you.
Games been out nearly a year now, I would have put spoiler tags otherwise so untwist your panties. No need for the potty mouth either.
I'm poor and I have a PS3. That means having to wait for the trilogy. Fuck you.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Aug 30, 2011
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There's no line. I just don't like a lot of things. I don't want to buy a game with on-disc DLC, excessive monetisation, microtransactions in addition to initial purchase, constant online for singleplayer, DRM, online passes, that sort of crap. But I'll level with you, if Armored Core 6 has one or two of those, I might consider buying it.

Actually, I suppose my line is having to buy another f***ing console just to play it. Lookin' at you, Monster Hunter.
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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Unfortunately, my lines have been crossed plenty of times. It's not like I enjoy avoiding certain games, and it pisses me off that I have to research all the games that come out to make sure I don't fall into one of these traps. There have been some games I wanted to play but refused to buy, so I ended up playing them at internet cafe's so it's not illegal and they don't get the money for it.

To cross my lines all you need to do is tie the game down to an annoying DRM like the always online one, add in DLC in multiplayer that empowers those who buy it, day 1 DLC (depending what they lock away but I hate it in general), and other restrictions.
 

OpticalJunction

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2011
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It hasn't stopped me from buying games because I don't want to give up my hobby, but I hate the trend of developers over charging Australians. For once I'd like to buy a new release game from a local retailer without feeling ripped off, it's hard to justify paying $100 for a freaking video game!

I also don't like the trend of always on DRM, like the one diablo 3 has. Not only is my internet connection unreliable, I also get capped if I go over a certain bandwidth amount, and those games tend to randomly download gigabytes worth of data.
 

Gypsyssilver

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Nov 23, 2012
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Line in the sand? These days I feel like there are so many lines I could draw it's like I'm standing on a zen garden.

The biggest ones for me are the 'always-online DRM' and 'Bait-and-switch' issues.

Always-online is a pretty obvious one. If I pay for a game, I want to be able to play it when I want, how I want. I won't be buying Diablo III. I'd probably like the game, it's just not going to happen.

By 'bait-and-switch' I'm referring to situations like with Mass Effect 3. I've got nothing against bucking the trend and thinking outside the box when coming up with plotlines/denouement. If it had been a different kind of game, it wouldn't have been an issue. They could have ended it however they liked, it would have just been part of the story.

Mass Effect was different though. Throughout the series the emphasis was placed on player choice. It was the 'Choose-your-own-adventure' of video games. What did YOU want YOUR Shepherd to be? How did YOU want YOUR story to go? Then they took away the relevancy of all of those choices in one dick move.

The bit that really annoys me is that I haven't even seen the ending to Mass Effect 3. I barely got past the start of the game.

I lined up at midnight on release day, brought it home and played it for hours, playing until I couldn't keep my eyes open any more. God it was awesome.

Life happened and I wasn't able to get back to playing it for a few days. In that time, the reports had popped up all over the internet. People everywhere were talking about the ending and how much it royally sucked.

A bad ending isn't always a deal-breaker. A lot of the time you can just ignore it and enjoy the parts that ARE good. In this case, it felt like the particular way in which the ending of this game sucked made it really hard to do that.

I'm definitely going to still play Mass Effect 3. I'm not going to play it all the way through, mind you. I'll stop just before the end and make up a better ending in my head. I'm definitely going to do that. I just need a few more months to get over the disappointment first.

With regard to the boycotting vs whining debate, I'm falling down on the side of the Jimquisition. Not buying games that have aspects that piss us off will only end in developers making less money and being less willing to take chances in future. I'd rather buy and ***** and hope the next one will be better (that might sound odd coming from someone who won't be buying Diablo III, but in that case it's not that I'm refusing to buy it because I want to punish Blizzard for trying to force me to always be online, rather that I just can't be assed dealing with it).
 

LordDPS

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Jun 4, 2010
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Candidus said:
Bioware is almost on the list for ME3. The ending was garbage. Don't spew up the argument from artistic integrity at me. If they had any of that, they wouldn't have tacked on-- I was going to say "that lazy fanfiction masquerading as an ending", but scratch that. Any fan would have put more effort into the finale than Bioware did, and even the least gifted writer among them all would have produced something better.

Rant.
Screw Bioware for crushing hundreds of hours and thousands of decisions into red, green or blue explosions. For introducing the hilariously named Star Child AI God thing a minute before the end. For undermining the whole premise of the first game with his presence (the machine-ghost can whim systems into activity that will obliterate all relays everywhere, but he can't open his own front door? Fuck off. OH, but he can't use them personally, that stuff was always there as a contingency, in case of almost-victorious organics? So they harp on and on about how their cycle is the galaxy's absolute, but know in their little robot heart of hearts that one day, a meatbag champion will-- nope, piss off mr badfanfiction). For failing initially to even explain the Normandy's having used a relay.

Just a pathetic effort all around; almost as bad as the people who still to this day condone it.
/Rant.

But all that being said, the extended cut- while still keeping most of the foul, shitty components of the undeniably dreadful ending- was sufficient gesture to get me back on the court. I'm not sure I'm game or anything, but I'm on the court and waiting to see ME's next iteration.

I draw the line at cynically marketed and misleading products like Aliens:CM, just as the OP does; in that case, I was fortunate to draw the line before even pre-ordering. I also draw the line at any product that requires a superfluous-to-steam gateway service besides Origin. I'm willing to swallow Origin in exchange for BF3 (and soon BF4), and Mass Effect 3 (the first 90% of it and the horde mode, anyway). But nothing produced by Ubisoft is worth the extra hassle of Uplay.

Edit: Also, just no to whatever the hell you call what Blizzard did with Diablo 3. On several levels that I'm just not going to cover, ALL MY NOPES. Again, I'm fortunate not to have bought it.
Hit the nail on the head with your rant. How dare Bioware act all smug and condescending about their ending and their so called Artistic Integrity. They turned Ashley into a bimbo. Gave Edi a hilariously blatant sex appeal and FUCKING CAMEL TOE and managed to make the gameplay even dumber. Then take out bits of the game and have the nerve to repackage it as lazy DLC later. (There is evidence that the Omega DLC was meant to be in the game in the first place and was removed by executive decision) Yup Artistic integrity all right.
 

Maximum Bert

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Feb 3, 2013
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Always online DRM gets my vote as well also trying games to one account I absolutely hate that oh Ill just take this game round to show a friend only you cant now.

Day one DLC is a big warning marker for me in fact most DLC is usually pointless some games lend themselves to it well like little big planet as there is no way they could have put all that stuff in game or if its a free balance patch for a game thats awesome as I no longer have to buy the new version of the game (although some still try it).

Other than that just extremely buggy obviously rushed content is enough to make me say no not going to bother.

The only one guaranteed to make me not purchase a game is always online DRM the others I will put up with if I really really want the game but if it has always online DRM I will never buy it regardless of how much I want to play it.
 

Garyn Dakari

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Nov 12, 2011
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sniddy said:
I'm sick of DLC

Every big game expects me to pay £10 here there every 4 months

No

Sorry I'm so far behind the market and there are so many cool indie games etc that I can wait a year or 18 months and pick up the 'gold' edition on steam for £20
This. I always wait for a cheap GotY/Gold edition of a game before buying it if I think it's going to have DLC. The only exceptions are with indie games and Valve games, since Valve never charges for DLC and indie games rarely have DLC. I recently got Dragon Age Origins Ultimate Edition, and I'm loving it so far, but I don't expect I'll get DA2 any time soon simply because there's no gold edition and buying all the DLC separate makes the game too expensive for me.
 

NightmareExpress

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Dec 31, 2012
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When I see the original message's integrity being violated for something other than improvement (taking a flawed concept from the original and fixing it up), that's when I become unimpressed and extremely likely to just go someplace else with my wallet firmly secure. I don't agree with that practice, and the publishers and public alike can stick a cactus where the sun don't shine for encouraging it (oversimplified, bastardized sequels that have lost touch with what made the original great).

So I guess when a game that was a great idea that made money changes to something that just exists to make money.

I also stay away from subscription based things, on-disc dlc, invasive DRM that requires a 24/7 connection and MMOs in general. Also, fuck most of game journalism. Unbiased and not paid off my arse.
 

gamernerdtg2

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Jan 2, 2013
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You know, DLC is ok with me because I usually buy used. I don't wind up spending 60 bucks at the end of it all either. But we're now on the cusp of technology that is erradicating backwards compatibility and used games, so maybe my "line" will become much thicker.

For me, Skyrim is where I draw the line. Can't stand that thing. It's not even a game b/c the gameplay is terrible. If the graphics were like stick figures I'd bet it'd still be a hit...hell I might even like it more that way.
 

BeCeejed

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Feb 22, 2013
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I have my line in the sand and I essentially use it to sort publishers/developers. I fling the ones who perform acts worthy of it across the line and they're barred from the awesome beach party I'm having on this side until they prove they can stop being complete and total idiots.



A couple things were already mentioned here.
1) "Always-online DRM."
Besides the obvious problem of some people with bad net connections, I know of 7 people out of my collection of friends who game who have NO net connection on their consoles, 3 of whom don't use the internet period. They live on shoestring budgets and they can't afford it, or they might only buy an internet connection for the purpose of gaming since they do very little other things on it (unlike me, they don't surf forums, check online magazine and news posts, or particularly care for social networking) - and whatever they do do on the internet they can do on their phones, anytime, anywhere. This eliminates them from being customers of the game AT ALL. 3 of them are diehards about not buying games used, ever, and supporting game companies directly whenever possible. And yet they'll never be able to play any game online without also forking over the monthly cost of an internet connection they otherwise won't use/don't need.

Yeah internet connections are really freaking common but they are not universal - and will become less so as mobile computers get bigger and people cease needing to use a -computer- to read escapist magazine articles, check in on Facebook, or write posts in their favorite forums. If I didn't have to use a computer to access school-related materials, I would only fire up the thing when it was time to do art in my resource intensive art programs, program in Visual Studio or some other massive IDE, or play games.

Add to it that quality internet connections are even less common. Every night at midnight my internet cuts out for about 15 minutes, like clockwork. Periodically throughout the day, my internet connection is unable to connect to the router due to the distance it is from my room, and I can't bring the router closer because other people use it for more important work related things that outrank me playing Diablo III. I can't game in the living room next to the router because, once again, other people are using those public spaces for work, homework, or watching TV programs.

I suppose I could try to boost the signal. Lets add yet another cost to the requirements every hardcore gamer needs to play modern games: HDTVs (for all those game that use white text on glistening backgrounds without the option - the barest option - of enabling a box around the text; I'm looking at you ME2 and 3), a Console or an adequate gaming rig, an internet connection separate from the one I already receive on my phone, and now additional tech to boost your router's signal. Alright, its time to buy that 60$ game from the publisher to show my support for their developer's awesome skills and creativity.




Okay, lets go for line number 2):
"Not understanding your Core Aesthetic" or also probably "Publishers fucking with developer-side things they shouldn't be messing with."
If a company has a good game, and it sells well, and they begin to make sequels or similar games, innovation is important. They want to try to change things in their game for the better - find the faults the original game had, and fix them, or find ways to improve upon existing features that were already good.

However, as a sequels or ideological children are created, there's always this change to make things appeal to 'more people,' or trying to snag additional demographics. On the surface these goals are not bad, and can in fact be done well, but if a company must do this, they HAVE to understand what made their game good enough to stand out in the first place. There is a (or multiple) core mechanic and/or theme and/or aesthetic that made the game appeal despite its original faults that the company is trying to fix. Understanding these things and making sure that changes to the next game emphasize those traits, or at least do not alter them in a negative way, is important.

If a company's not doing that then the game has become just a business transaction. Games are both art and business. The art makes the money. When the end goal is making money only, the art suffers, and the company's wonderful franchise gets tossed across the line - do it one too many times, and the company follows. Realistically, companies cannot simply focus on making only 'good games' and not considering business decisions - this is understandable and acceptable - but the two must be balanced. Time and time again I see companies - usually big publishers, I'm looking at you EA - force decisions and alterations to a franchise, or even a promising new IP, to make it appeal to 'more people.' Yet it seems that they lack the vision to understand what will actually appeal to 'more people' because every game slowly moves towards a cookie cutter copy of the definition of the genre that it is in.

Don't mess with what makes the game unique! Product differentiation is an important economic principle, and in games it involves more than just a different name and a different face on the cover, and a different UI. Core story elements, gameplay features not offered elsewhere, unique settings and lore, and more are facets of games that players connect with, associate with the franchise, and realistically don't need to be homogenized into something more 'industry standard.' Companies should simply take what they have and make it faster, more attractive, easier for the player to implement, etc.

Don't mess with your core aesthetics. Just don't do it. Or get your butt across the line.



One thing I haven't seen mentioned much in this thread so far:
3) "Breaking the foundations of the world."
Look. Halo: Reach. It was a fun game, okay? It was Halo and I shot stuff and there were birds you could punch and Dr. Halsey who is always worth an extra gold star when you can work her magnificent slightly psychopathic genius into the story.

But you just took the canon, the existing knowledge of everything that happened on Reach, and basically ripped it to shreds. You now put the player who is a huge fan of your series and read the books in the difficult position of trying to decide what to consider canon and what not to: the book, which came out earlier, was far more detailed, and whose characters are a whole lot more memorable (plus features extra helpings of Good Ol' Halsey?), or the game, which is known by more of the fanbase, is in the media the original story was introduced in, and otherwise kinda sucks plotwise by trying too dang hard?

This is a bad idea, companies. Let me tell you something, that lore? You want to control it as much as possible. Halo: Reach is the easy example. What about games that contradict themselves from one game to another? Okay okay, you know I get some things. Like, you made a mistake on the previous one and now some things don't make sense to you have to retcon some stuff and make it work. Like I get that. Lets fix mistakes.

But things that are completely valid, not broken in any way, and often referenced heavily in game mechanics or plot limitation, are simply changed later for convenience? Lets beat the popular, meat-tenderized dead horse of Mass Effect 3 and its horribad ending (we won't even discuss the novel that should never have been written - one subject at a time, right?). The StarChild's explanation of the Reapers pretty much contradicts directly Sovereign's own explanation of his 'people.' Also I dunno why the hell the Reapers have done this cycle for so long, tried to build a human-shaped version of themselves, apparently harvest organics for 'preservation' in reaper form, but only have one uniform shape everywhere? They are those crazy space-bug-squids. There's no Promethean Reaper, even though the Collectors were clearly not harvested for preservation in Reaper form and plenty more prometheans were goo-ified than there are humans currently existing in the story! And so much more! *beats dead horse again*

If you've directly stated something, just, don't contradict it, okay? you have the art bible, the design bible, the Scripts and all the notes archived somewhere, probably on a Wiki where its easily searchable if you're smart, so Design Team, if you have an idea, let's see if we've touched on it before, shall we? Okay, simple rule there. Not hard to follow.

This is another part of the industry where games become simply a transaction. You're just coming in to do your job and it doesn't matter what flop of a story you throw together so long as its done by the release date. Nothing wrong with making games as a living, yeah? But when companies start seeing their royalty checks first and the game second, they start dropping the ball on everything that's important in a game. As much as possible, don't break the lore. People relate to your game through its setting. If you do something to destroy people's perception of events in the game as 'real', then while they may enjoy your game they won't be a super fan of it. It will be a 'meh.'

Nobody really wants more 'mehs' in the market. Everybody could do with a lot more 'oohs and aahs.'



and lastly:
4) "Used games are bad" and more importantly "We're going to try to prevent you from purchasing them ever cause we're heartless and stupid."
Alright I like supporting publishers who are good. Okay? I buy new games from my favorite companies. I pay for DLC. Even sometimes Avatar items on my Xbox, cause I wanna wear a stupid Mass effect T-shirt when my little avatar dude shows up dancing his little Avatar dance on my friend's dashboards. I will buy collector's editions of games. I will give you my money directly if you even seem like you're going to make it worthwile.

My little brother is eleven. My parents don't have a huge amount to spend on luxury items for him, but he gets a small allowance. He loves games. He will carefully scrimp and save his little allowance to go to the store once a month and buy a game - used, obviously, because he's poorer than the 60 bucks needed - or maybe a Skylander Giant and a normal Skylander. These outings are the things he looks forward to the most. We sidle into gamestop about once a month, when I don't work on a Saturday, with his tiny cheetah wallet brimming with dollar bills and coins, and pour carefully over the selection of games in his price range. We get a good stack of possibles going. We read their summaries, check some reviews, I help explain to him what an RTS is, and he makes a selection. If I can, I'll usually toss a skylander on there out of my own monies, cause there's always a dragon-type we don't already have and when I co-op with him on that silly game cause he pesters me to for hours on end, I like to play dragons.

Do not take this from my little brother. Do not take this kind of experience from my friends who support their ailing parents and have a hard time making rent and would like to just knife some people in Assassin's creed now and again and enjoy the view from ridiculously tall towers.

Just don't do it, okay? Don't be an ass. You want more people to pay for your games upfront, find a way to produce them without these ridiculously inflated budgets. Make it so my brother, with his 20-25$ a month allowance, could buy one of your new games, and a candy bar. And then you can try to prevent used game sales, company. Then it might possibly be deemed acceptable.

I mean its not really acceptable but at least my brother could still enjoy his favorite past-time. It'd still be shitty business practice and my god just about the dumbest shit ever, but people who enjoy games and aren't upper-middle-class or above could, you know...enjoy them more. or at least pay you for their enjoyment.