If I had to take a stab in the dark, its because the Witch here, while sporting enough hair to give Rapunzel a run for her money and a hat big enough to double as a tent, the rest of her is pretty proportionate.
Where's All The Character-Design Protesters For This One?
- Thread starter RJ 17
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I don't understand why people say that Metallia lacks sex appeal compared to the sorceress. I think Metallia is more attractive in every way, barring personality, since I don't particularly care for her and the sorceress' personalities (or lackthereof, as the case may be). Personally, I think the sorceress looks kinda gross.
I think the main issue is that the sorceress was all big, flopping tits and ass. I mean, when you think of her, what else do you think of? Comparatively, Metallia's design is more complex and visually interesting. Instead of only her breasts being big (and not actually THAT big, relatively speaking), her entire design is exaggerated. She's got a gigantic, intricate hat, spindly limbs, a huge amount of hair and the characteristic big anime eyes. When I think of Metallia, I think of her huge-ass hat and hair, her striking green eyes and exposed midriff at least as much as her boobs. Even more prominent than her physical appearance, however, is her personality, which is at least as cartoonishly exaggerated than her body. The sorceress doesn't quite have that blessing.
Also, it's kind of par for the course for NIS. Someone else brought up Etna (the "controversy" surrounding her body, I'm not gonna get into). Etna's outfit is basically the worst NIS has to offer. Metallia isn't so bad.
I think the main issue is that the sorceress was all big, flopping tits and ass. I mean, when you think of her, what else do you think of? Comparatively, Metallia's design is more complex and visually interesting. Instead of only her breasts being big (and not actually THAT big, relatively speaking), her entire design is exaggerated. She's got a gigantic, intricate hat, spindly limbs, a huge amount of hair and the characteristic big anime eyes. When I think of Metallia, I think of her huge-ass hat and hair, her striking green eyes and exposed midriff at least as much as her boobs. Even more prominent than her physical appearance, however, is her personality, which is at least as cartoonishly exaggerated than her body. The sorceress doesn't quite have that blessing.
Also, it's kind of par for the course for NIS. Someone else brought up Etna (the "controversy" surrounding her body, I'm not gonna get into). Etna's outfit is basically the worst NIS has to offer. Metallia isn't so bad.
Contrary to popular belief, a lot of the issue with the Sorceress (and Amazon) weren't just that she had massive breasts or was in skimpy clothes. She was bent and twisted in every frame and piece of artwork to be the most sexually exploitative as possible. She had ridiculous running and jumping cycles, nearly all of her frames were dedicates to, in some way, exposing her cleavage or making her jut out her chest and bounce in a silly fashion.
On top of that the game also have the aforementioned Amazon who had similar issues with a massive amount of her character being dedicated to showing off her butt. Additionally a large portion of female NPCs were almost exclusively seen in ways to make them as sexually tantalizing as possible, and a disturbing number of them put into helpless or submissive poses.
The sorceress may have been the face of the issues, but the problems with Dragons Crown in terms of its treatment of female characters were numerous and constant throughout. There is much more to issues like this than 'Characters in skimpy/unrealistic clothes and/or with big breasts.' Sex appeal is not, in itself, a problem. The problem is the treatment of women and female characters at large as nothing but walking sources of sexual fantasy. Lulu is a strong and well written character in both story and gameplay, she also has a bit of sex appeal from the design of her outfit, but the game never attempts to emphasize that over other facets of her character.
On top of that the game also have the aforementioned Amazon who had similar issues with a massive amount of her character being dedicated to showing off her butt. Additionally a large portion of female NPCs were almost exclusively seen in ways to make them as sexually tantalizing as possible, and a disturbing number of them put into helpless or submissive poses.
The sorceress may have been the face of the issues, but the problems with Dragons Crown in terms of its treatment of female characters were numerous and constant throughout. There is much more to issues like this than 'Characters in skimpy/unrealistic clothes and/or with big breasts.' Sex appeal is not, in itself, a problem. The problem is the treatment of women and female characters at large as nothing but walking sources of sexual fantasy. Lulu is a strong and well written character in both story and gameplay, she also has a bit of sex appeal from the design of her outfit, but the game never attempts to emphasize that over other facets of her character.
The reason is that the Dragon's Crown Sorceress has proportions that are so exaggerated, it's actually turning off many heterosexual male gamers. Note that the pile of complaints about that design can actually be cleanly divided into two separate stacks:
1. The design reduces a female character to a purely sexual object.
2. The design is ugly.
Note that people who make the second complaint are judging the Sorceress design specifically on its merits as a purely sexual object. What these two parties want is not actually the same thing. Members of the first party would likely find fault with the witch's design (the exposed belly and cleavage are pure fanservice, and are kind of at odds with her sour expression, which implies a certain brusque power and agency not predisposed to dressing sexily). Members of the second party would quietly fap. The furor over Dragon's Crown was so loud because these two disparate groups unexpectedly harmonized.
1. The design reduces a female character to a purely sexual object.
2. The design is ugly.
Note that people who make the second complaint are judging the Sorceress design specifically on its merits as a purely sexual object. What these two parties want is not actually the same thing. Members of the first party would likely find fault with the witch's design (the exposed belly and cleavage are pure fanservice, and are kind of at odds with her sour expression, which implies a certain brusque power and agency not predisposed to dressing sexily). Members of the second party would quietly fap. The furor over Dragon's Crown was so loud because these two disparate groups unexpectedly harmonized.
Eh. Metallia looks relatively tame compared to most compared to most scantily clad females. Maybe it's because I'm used to this kind of thing. The guys who made the game have made the Disgaea series.
Either way, I really don't find all of this to be a big deal. People seem way too easily offended by this kind of stuff in my opinion.
Either way, I really don't find all of this to be a big deal. People seem way too easily offended by this kind of stuff in my opinion.
Son of a gun.
You actually went and made the thread.
As was pointed out before, both of those games come from Japanese developers so I think comparing them as JRPG vs WRPG is way off. As for the designs themselves, there are many more ways the Dragon's Crown sorceress is more sexualized than the picture below. Mainly the fact that she's twisted in such away were you can also see a good portion of her ass as well as her breasts. Or the fact that she has very shapely legs, which also adds to her sexual appeal. Plus...you know...the jiggle physics.
The other character, I would argue is way more stylized what with her large hair and hat. All that said, her breasts are in fact more proportionate to her body than anything else. She maybe half naked, but I don't think that a lone makes her sexualized.
Also consider that it is the positioning and behavior of a character that most often than not contribute to their sexualization. When I was playing Dragon's Crown I was much more disturbed by these characters than by the sorceress.
The monk above is even fully covered, it was her moaning that didn't help much.
You actually went and made the thread.
As was pointed out before, both of those games come from Japanese developers so I think comparing them as JRPG vs WRPG is way off. As for the designs themselves, there are many more ways the Dragon's Crown sorceress is more sexualized than the picture below. Mainly the fact that she's twisted in such away were you can also see a good portion of her ass as well as her breasts. Or the fact that she has very shapely legs, which also adds to her sexual appeal. Plus...you know...the jiggle physics.
The other character, I would argue is way more stylized what with her large hair and hat. All that said, her breasts are in fact more proportionate to her body than anything else. She maybe half naked, but I don't think that a lone makes her sexualized.
Also consider that it is the positioning and behavior of a character that most often than not contribute to their sexualization. When I was playing Dragon's Crown I was much more disturbed by these characters than by the sorceress.
The monk above is even fully covered, it was her moaning that didn't help much.
Uhm, im a female, and explain to me why i should be offended by that second design. I'm honestly confused.
Quite simple. You would find it very hard to find someone who looked like the first example in real life, but personally I know people who do look like the second example, only with less hair. That's all there is to it. I haven't met skinny people who have big bouncy boobs twice as big as their head but I have met skinny people who have boobs half the seize of their face.
I just have to point-out that this has never been the issue for me and I sick of it criticism of this shit been passed off as jealousy. The issue is not that standard is unrealistic, the issues is that the standard is nothing to look up to and emphasises being a good lay even if it makes them weak and stupid over anything that is actually worth a damn. Gigantic tits are neither visually appealing to me or functional.ObsidianJones said:
I don't see anything wrong with the second picture.. the character from the Witch and the Hundred Knights is skinny but not proportioned strange like the bizarre chick from dragon's crown is ..
My problem with Dragons Crown was more in the posing then the designs. Much of the early art work we were shown created this image of something far more erotic then the game was pitching. She was posed in various ways that accentuated sexuality over everything else.
Large exaggerated breasts aren't innately offensive. They might be a trite and lazy in a creative sense, but not offensive.
It was the "stripper" poses she would take that left me scratching my head in exasperation. This image is the most egregious:
Compare this to the Warrior:
I've recently learned of how influential the cosplay culture in Japan is and the Sorceress above fits that culture. Characters, more oftenly, are designed exclusively to fit the themes within an enclosed narrative and sometimes they are designed with the tarket market in mind too. This isn't much different then how it is anywhere where marketing might influence design, but the Cosplay culture makes this stand out to us.
This LOOKS like it was an artists interpritation of The Sorceress as portrayed by a cosplayer, more specifically, a paid cosplayer (or model).
So? The image is made to be looked at. How is this different then other images then?
Well, for the most part, other images let the themes of the image influence the posing of a character and then the efforts of the artist make it stand out. This seems to be made with the observers gaze in mind (or maybe the artists) and as a result, the setting, themes or lore doesn't inform this portrayal of the Sorceress. She "acts" alien to her design, my mind has to contort quite a bit to fit that pose within the lore and themes presented (in just that image)... and there is a lot of contorting going on in that image already.
Ultimately no one thing about this image is truly bad. It's a high quality image made by a telented artist as part of a talented team. But poor choice of posing (depending on your standing), a (in my opinion) poorly informed exaggerated design and some cheap fan service-y marketing and you get this image above.
Throw it into the boiling pot of online sensationalism and you get a controversy that exceeds rationality.
I never played the game so my ability to engage with this discussion ends here. That said, some of the game footage I've seen doesn't seem like it would improve my prior take on it. So I guess the design was more consistent with the game then I initially thought.
Large exaggerated breasts aren't innately offensive. They might be a trite and lazy in a creative sense, but not offensive.
It was the "stripper" poses she would take that left me scratching my head in exasperation. This image is the most egregious:
Compare this to the Warrior:
I've recently learned of how influential the cosplay culture in Japan is and the Sorceress above fits that culture. Characters, more oftenly, are designed exclusively to fit the themes within an enclosed narrative and sometimes they are designed with the tarket market in mind too. This isn't much different then how it is anywhere where marketing might influence design, but the Cosplay culture makes this stand out to us.
This LOOKS like it was an artists interpritation of The Sorceress as portrayed by a cosplayer, more specifically, a paid cosplayer (or model).
So? The image is made to be looked at. How is this different then other images then?
Well, for the most part, other images let the themes of the image influence the posing of a character and then the efforts of the artist make it stand out. This seems to be made with the observers gaze in mind (or maybe the artists) and as a result, the setting, themes or lore doesn't inform this portrayal of the Sorceress. She "acts" alien to her design, my mind has to contort quite a bit to fit that pose within the lore and themes presented (in just that image)... and there is a lot of contorting going on in that image already.
Ultimately no one thing about this image is truly bad. It's a high quality image made by a telented artist as part of a talented team. But poor choice of posing (depending on your standing), a (in my opinion) poorly informed exaggerated design and some cheap fan service-y marketing and you get this image above.
Throw it into the boiling pot of online sensationalism and you get a controversy that exceeds rationality.
I never played the game so my ability to engage with this discussion ends here. That said, some of the game footage I've seen doesn't seem like it would improve my prior take on it. So I guess the design was more consistent with the game then I initially thought.
To paraphrase South Park, "people like to think a cause is something you wear on a sleeve", or in the implication of that, people often don't actually care enough that they intend to do anything, but enough that they have the image of caring.
On the Japanese and Western community who were already fans of the designs, there was mountains of fan media already done before gameplay even showed up. Even professionals in the industry were ready to give their support.
However, like the DmC, Anita, and Mass Effect complainers who have practically have a THESIS on why they dislike something, they are drowned out. With strawman arguments, and a lack of investment in what critics were complaining about creating a circular loop where being offended about them being offended is actually better than ignoring it.
Since people will automatically go for the weaker complaints regardless.
I'm not even sure of the mindset of someone who was offended over the joke response anymore.
Seriously? You must be homophobic and childish to draw burly short muscled men with bulging abs?
You don't even need to understand that an artist drawing something for 15+ hours he HATES sounds dumb, but a man who-oh wait, people don't actually look up he made stuff like Muramasa and Odin Sphere.
On the Japanese and Western community who were already fans of the designs, there was mountains of fan media already done before gameplay even showed up. Even professionals in the industry were ready to give their support.
However, like the DmC, Anita, and Mass Effect complainers who have practically have a THESIS on why they dislike something, they are drowned out. With strawman arguments, and a lack of investment in what critics were complaining about creating a circular loop where being offended about them being offended is actually better than ignoring it.
Since people will automatically go for the weaker complaints regardless.
I'm not even sure of the mindset of someone who was offended over the joke response anymore.
Seriously? You must be homophobic and childish to draw burly short muscled men with bulging abs?
You don't even need to understand that an artist drawing something for 15+ hours he HATES sounds dumb, but a man who-oh wait, people don't actually look up he made stuff like Muramasa and Odin Sphere.
And her victory pose was bending over to show off said cleavage as her breasts bounce against each other like a Newton's Cradle. It has little to do with what clothing she's wearing...for all intents and purposes the sorceress in Dragon's Crown is actually wearing just about as much as Lulu, and Lulu's breast size is just about the same as the sorceress' as well. I'd imagine that both casters suffer from serious back problems considering their flagrant disregard for the use of bras.FoolKiller said:
She's wearing next to nothing? That hat alone must be 25 pounds of material, she's wearing the equivalent of 6 business suits on top of her head.
But seriously, in addition to the fact that not many people have probably heard of this game, she just looks friggin bizarre if you ask me. In addition to the weird hat, she seems to have enough hair to supply a small village with wigs, weird toothpicks arms, and a waist that looks like it's maybe 16 inches.
But seriously, in addition to the fact that not many people have probably heard of this game, she just looks friggin bizarre if you ask me. In addition to the weird hat, she seems to have enough hair to supply a small village with wigs, weird toothpicks arms, and a waist that looks like it's maybe 16 inches.
Really? They seem pretty uncomparable to me.RJ 17 said:
I never liked Lulu though, I always felt like she was a little too bland, and her appearance didn't seem to really mesh with her personality. She was definitely a bit sexualized, but nowhere near grinding a staff between your asscheeks levels.
And as a lot of people have mentioned already, the Sorceress was just the posterboy for a game that is just full of designs just like that. Having now played through a decent amount of the game, I'd have to struggle to think of a female character that wasn't pretty much "boobs on a stick". Thankfully I don't really like the game, so I'm not missing much.
But yeah, Dragon's Crown and its ilk is far more deserving of the response it got than the character you showed, or Lulu. Hell, in Muramasa Rebirth (same artist) they pretty much skirt the line of tentacle rape.
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"BUT MEN ARE SEXUALIZED TOO!!!"
So I think that Lulu and that image you showed were pretty tame in comparison
I really wish the answer could be something along the lines of "people realized the dumbass tumblr crowd were pulling another overblown fit and stopped taking them seriously", but it's probably just because the game is lower profile and the imagery is more cartoonish.
I try not to even engage in these discussions anymore because I think we've long since crossed the line that separates "cleaning up the industry" from "trying to shame content makers into creating exactly the sort of things I want to buy... even though I'm probably not the sort of person who buys them in the first goddamn place".
I try not to even engage in these discussions anymore because I think we've long since crossed the line that separates "cleaning up the industry" from "trying to shame content makers into creating exactly the sort of things I want to buy... even though I'm probably not the sort of person who buys them in the first goddamn place".
Case in point, that's promotional art for a cover.The Almighty Aardvark said:
When have you ever seen promotional art be 1:1 with the product's content?
If you want a freebie though, there is your kitsune assistants, bath scenes, and how you attack the thunder god.
To be fair it matches pretty well to a lot of what I've seen, and is done by the same artist who does the art for the game. I haven't actually played Muramasa Rebirth, so I assumed it was just one of those in game scenes they showed like in Dragon's Crown where everything is more or less unmoving except for the occasional jiggling boobs or such. I'd also seen gameplay footage of the boss she's fighting, so I'd guessed it was shown before or after that fight.MoeMints said:Case in point, that's promotional art for a cover.The Almighty Aardvark said:
When have you ever seen promotional art be 1:1 with the product's content?
If you want a freebie though, there is your kitsune assistants, bath scenes, and how you attack the thunder god.
It's a shame, because I almost like the artist's work. He has really nice use of colors, and an interesting style. It's just a lot of his designs that I have issue with. Not just the sexualized ones either