Who's More Entitled?

[Colour Scientist]

Most countries, particularly Western countries, have experienced issues with both legal and illegal immigration.

Generally speaking, a country's reaction to immigrants largely depends on the state of the economy. Discrimination tends not to be widespread until the economy takes a turn for the worst and employment becomes more scarce. When this happens you tend to get a more widespread Randy Marsh reaction.

Spoiler

Many employers will argue that a lot of non-natives do the job in question more efficiently and for less money meaning that, in the troubled economy, it is more cost effective for them to hire those seeking employment from other countries. In responce to this you often hear the native reaction of "This is our country, we were here first. They should go home and find jobs there."

This thread is asking does the latter excuse really hold water? Does the chance of you being born in a specific country give you certain entitlements within the workforce or should you have to compete with immigrants from other countries on a fair playing field?

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Does the chance of you being born in a specific country give you certain entitlements within the workforce or should you have to compete with immigrants from other countries on a fair playing field?

On one hand, I do feel that being born and raised as a British citizen that I should be able to get a job within my own country. So naturally I'm both biased and will therefore cry bloody murder at anyone who gets a job I interviewed regardless of their reasons. If I ever have claimed an immigrant to be the cause it's usually been out of irrational upset.

Sometimes it's hard to blame a company for choosing cheaper work. Though there are some cases which I feel are wrong. I applied for a position as an engineer at a local computer shop, now the opening wage was National Minumum Wage so how on earth is this chap any cheaper? Turns out they pay him off the books. Now that I don't like.

 

[Tentickles]

No one is more entitled.
Everyone is just prejudice.

 

[Booze Zombie]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Does the chance of you being born in a specific country give you certain entitlements within the workforce or should you have to compete with immigrants from other countries on a fair playing field?

On one hand, I do feel that being born and raised as a British citizen that I should be able to get a job within my own country. So naturally I'm both biased and will therefore cry bloody murder at anyone who gets a job I interviewed regardless of their reasons. If I ever have claimed an immigrant to be the cause it's usually been out of irrational upset.

Sometimes it's hard to blame a company for choosing cheaper work. Though there are some cases which I feel are wrong. I applied for a position as an engineer at a local computer shop, now the opening wage was National Minumum Wage so how on earth is this chap any cheaper? Turns out they pay him off the books. Now that I don't like.

And there in lies the point of why it is wrong to hire illegal immigrants, the obviously aren't making a record of paying illegal immigrants because of course it is illegal to help out illegal immigrants.

I certainly don't think they are hiring legal ones.

Citizens come first when hiring, people with a green card or whatever legally in the country paper work come second, and illegal immigrants come never because they should be deported back to where they came from(illegal is illegal).

 

[Sonic Doctor]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

The problem with that is that not every job pays the same, and not every position pays the same, because the amount of work involved. A management position is more work than a starting with no experience position.

Besides we are talking about illegal immigration. The comment from employers are the comments about how they hire illegals because they do the same or even more work for less pay. Where they have to pay a citizen at least the minimum wage, they can pay the illegal less.

Take my state, the minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Now if the employer hires me, they have to at least pay me that, but if they hire an illegal, they could save a great deal of money by paying the illegal 2 dollars an hour instead. The illegal can't complain to anybody about the unfair payment because they are illegal and would get deported if they are discovered, and the bad companies that hire them know that.

 

[Indeterminacy]

Does the chance of you being born in a specific country give you certain entitlements within the workforce or should you have to compete with immigrants from other countries on a fair playing field?

This is a question of enfranchisement. Am I a more integral part of the franchise that I participate in (employment in a given country) by virtue of being born there?

No. But the converse isn't true either. Jobs should go to people that contribute to the country. If you're appealing to entitlement, chances are that that's not you. If you're just sending whatever you earn abroad, that's not you either. But both of these can be avoided by immigrants, just as much as natives.

 

[Indeterminacy]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

I don't think you quite understand the point of being an illegal immigrant. The employment laws of a nation are explicitly ignored by those who are not there legally - that's the problem. Mandating another law to apply to those who don't fall under the purview of the original law still doesn't add anything new.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

The problem with that is, if an immigrant is here illegally, they're already breaking the law.
So hiring them is also breaking the law, if you're breaking the law hiring them, you're not going to pay them the same wage as a legal immigrant, or a native worker, you're going to pay them less and say its fair because you're taking a risk by givig them a job.

The only real solution is to deal with illegal immigration.
Legal immigration is perfectly fine, and people who legally immigrate should be entitled to all the opportunities of someone native to the country.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I must admit to forming this opinion after reading my satirical hero Maddox (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart) and well, I am sticking by the idea that if you force companies to pay everyone equally regardless of their status being legal or illegal, it will remove that little obstacle. Now, if the immigrant is more skilled, however...

 

[Verlander]

Simply put, our laws and economies are country centric.

Foreign labour costs less and therefore earns a higher profit margin. That's the ONLY reason foreign immigrants get jobs, as the pubic opinion and backlash normally damages sales as well (apart from the odd cases where foreign labour is expected, which is a win-win situation for the employer).

The reason that this is a bad thing is the process of sending money home, and the issue of incorrect tax payments.

Using the example of a big, world class city, London NEEDS foreign workers, but NOT in menial jobs. Rather, it requires them in finance, in business and economics. That is an example of good immigration, and it adds to the countries economy. What it gets, however, is thousands of unskilled workers who are willing to be paid less, but also (importantly) spend less. London is an expensive city, so how do these people manage to work McDonalds in the centre? Usually it's because they live in appalling conditions that while are out of touch with our own standards, are very likely to be on par with those of whatever country they came from.

In a completely free market, immigration wouldn't be seen as such a problem, it would be seen as the "best man for the job", or more likely "cheapest man for the job". Our standards would have to drop in order to compete, and the very rich would get richer. Eventually a compromise would have to be met, when the public could no longer afford to live. This is a bad thing. Free economies turn into monopolies very quickly.

This situation would only improve if there was a global free market, and global economy (which would also require a global government/political structure). Then, the emphasis would change, with smaller companies being able to compete in different, cheaper areas. The rich would move further away, and commute, and that would reintroduce a lot of the money back into the economy. Eventually however, that would probably head the same way without any socialist safeguards, and isn't much of an improvement. Also, in this scenario, "immigration" wouldn't exist, as we'd all be part of the same entity.

In Britain at the moment, we (currently) have a lot of socialist laws in place to prevent this from happening. Our current government is trying to change that, which is a massively bad thing, and even a lot of the very rich see how that will eventually harm them.

So, in response to your question, the latter aren't more entitled because of any birth right, but immigration needs to be monitored on an economic level. America does this slightly better, but for all of the wrong reasons, and has taken it so far that they are now suffering. A balance needs to be found.

 

[Ikaruga33]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

YOU DAMN DIRTY COMMUNIST


(sorry I just HAD to say that

 

[Comando96]

The obvious solution to immigration problems is just having laws that ensure that everyone is paid the same wage, regardless of their being legally or illegally in the country thus, the only thing an immigrant could have over a legal citizen would be their skill level, then.

Your kinda missing the fucking point.

If immigrants are being paid under the minimum wage then they are not being declared as a worker. If they are not being declared as a worker then no one has to pay tax and everyone but the government is better off.

You have taken a good idea yes but one which cannot be put into practice as first, not everyone will be declared...
Secondly to ensure everyone "doing the same job" is paid the same wage is a preposterous thing due to many economic factors like local wage rates due to local living costs and job descriptions being easily editable in order to encompass more or less and therefore deserving more or less pay although in effect they are doing the same job.

This is the very reason communism didn't fucking work.
Good idea, but it requires the impossible and then makes too many assumptions as to the situation at hand and allowing for no changes to "the plan".

Free market > Communism

 

[Arkenangel]

The problem is that, as a country (and I'm speaking for Britain here), we have an extremely poor work ethic. We've been brought up to believe that, as British citizens, we are entitled to more than the guarantee of a job, no matter how little we've worked to earn it. And when there isn't a dream job being held only inches away from our 'outstretched' hands? We're entitled to live off of the state.

The fact of the matter is employers prefer foreign workers because they are perfectly willing to do the jobs which many citizens consider beneath them; after all, why work when there is food and beer in the belly?

 

[Zykon TheLich]

As azure

 

[Craorach]

The problem is that, as a country (and I'm speaking for Britain here), we have an extremely poor work ethic. We've been brought up to believe that, as British citizens, we are entitled to more than the guarantee of a job, no matter how little we've worked to earn it. And when there isn't a dream job being held only inches away from our 'outstretched' hands? We're entitled to live off of the state.

The fact of the matter is employers prefer foreign workers because they are perfectly willing to do the jobs which many citizens consider beneath them; after all, why work when there is food and beer in the belly?

As a Englishman in a foreign country, this isn't unique to England.

When I was at home, I was actually to sick to work... years later I discover I'm actually allergic to a chemical wide spread in the soil where I was living... but I digress. I saw, day in, day out, the attitude you mention in people on the dole. It angered me greatly because I physically couldn't work without intense pain and was trying anyway.

Since moving to Aus, my health has improved, but as an unskilled immigrant I found myself in the same jobs as the many African and Indian immigrants in the same boat. These people were often far better qualified than myself, but due to language issues forced to do lower paid jobs. And we worked, all of us, incredibly hard.. in shit jobs, for shit pay. Because if we don't work, we don't eat.

The unemployment benefits system here for Australian citizens if FAR more generous in some regards than the one that I was part of in England. While I think it is great and needed for people down on their luck to be supported, the system here is so permissive that people genuinely do not want to work. Whole families live off benefits, poping out kids whenever they want more.

The hilarious thing is that many of the jobs that immigrants end up doing are, frankly, terrible.. they pay poorly, have long hours, health dangers both physical and mental, and are universally looked down upon by members of the public. Yet you still hear the old "coming and taking our jobs" bullshit from the lazy gits who can't be bothered to get off their asses and do the jobs themselves.