Why Am I A Bad Person For Like Large Breasts And Sexy Nuns?

[generals3]

Loving the entitlement. Feeling like you're being personally insulted for something you're misinterpreting.

I don't think it's related to entitlement. It's actually a natural response. When someone constantly associates a product you like to some kind of evil social injustice you will feel targeted. That's why many activists often go straight to consumers to tell them about the bad practices of the producers of the products they consume, to make them feel bad about their purchases so they stop buying it.

The free market is a two way street. If you blame game producers for making too many big tits you're also blaming consumers who are making it a profitable business. Because if it wasn't for them game devs wouldn't make games with over sexualized women (or at least much less). It may not be intentional but the guilt inducement is still present.

 

[Schadrach]

I think the whole Dragon's Crown thing is a little misunderstood. It's all an intentional over the top artstyle for everything involved. Males included. It's not like they went LOL TITS for no reason (*cough*DOA*cough)

You make it sound like much like there's two wildly exaggerated female characters and one kind of realistically proportioned one that the male characters might have one kind of realistically proportioned one, a fuzzy pea on top of a tin can, and a roughly spherical dwarf.

 

[KOMega]

To put it another way, I like The Big Bang Theory. I don't identify with it. If someone insults The Big Bang Theory, I don't feel like someone is insulting me. I usually laugh and move on with my life.

Your sense of reason is a breathe of fresh air.

Anyways. Another thing I find funny. The whole point behind the idea that people are offended by these is because they objectify women right?
However, those who cry sexism at first glance at some slightly disproportionate people (People just have poor stomachs I guess) are basing a lot of their own reasons based entirely on looks, while those who are acknowledge the art style and then talk about the game... as a game!

Plus hitman and dragons crown, from what I can tell, are purposefully humorous and exaggeratedly silly.
I'd name a few other examples, but I'm in fear of accidentally leading those who judge on sight to the things I like.

 

[KOMega]

To put it another way, I like The Big Bang Theory. I don't identify with it. If someone insults The Big Bang Theory, I don't feel like someone is insulting me. I usually laugh and move on with my life.

Your sense of reason is a breathe of fresh air.

You may be misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying if someone thinks Dragon's Crown, Hitman, or video games in general are sexist, it's silly and irrational to respond as though you personally have been insulted. People not liking the things that you like does not make those people evil.

I'm not saying they are evil. And I don't feel personally insulted if someone doesn't like something I like. But how much reasoning that goes on when they do go on the attack just baffles me.

You're really missing the point of critics of the game, I think. And calling the characters in Dragon's Crown "slightly" disproportionate is being far too charitable.

Personally, my whole issue with Dragon's Crown since I was first aware of it was not the juvenile depiction of the characters. It was the artist's juvenile response to people who didn't like the characters. He did exactly what I'm cautioning against, he tried to gay-shame anyone who didn't like his game to silence valid criticism.

Well, critics are another thing. I'm speaking about just people in general. Critics make it their job to review and well... criticize every aspect of the game. I get that. I just get iffy when people in general toss out final judgements so quickly with little reason. However much I may disagree with a critic, at least they write up their reasons. Even if I disagree with the reasons, they are reasons.

Perhaps "slightly disproportionate" is a bit charitable. But it's definitely not the strangest thing I've seen in gaming.

Oh yes, the three dwarves. I thought that was a bit funny. Some juvenile humor to be sure, but they were pretty civil after that. I think it ended quite civilly. I don't think I followed the whole story though, so if they indeed went at each others throats, then by all means yell and berate at them. But for the right reasons.

 

[generals3]

Not really. I mean, surely by now all of us have heard someone make an argument for vegetarianism at some point in our lives. In my experience most people who aren't vegetarians simply don't give a shit about what the person advocating for vegetarianism thinks about meat. It's no skin off our noses. But video games (and guns, it seems) are different. A lot of people don't just see them as things they like, they see them as part of their identities. So they lose the ability to separate criticism of some aspect of the hobby with criticism of themselves. Which leads to lots of hysterical responses.

To put it another way, I like The Big Bang Theory. I don't identify with it. If someone insults The Big Bang Theory, I don't feel like someone is insulting me. I usually laugh and move on with my life.

See now, nobody takes vegetarians seriously. But the problem is that video games are already a huge target of crap. As such any crap is going to be taken more seriously. (Though If the forum rules wouldn't prevent me I would totally opt for the "point and laugh" method)

On top of that you need to realize the accusations are also graver. Nobody cares about cows but people do care about sexism. And being told those games they like are part of some big sexist issue, well, ain't gonna pass. (and that's also very very different with just saying "that game is stoopid")

 

[generals3]

You don't think vegetarians are also "already a huge target of crap"? You don't think Big Bang Theory is "already a huge target of crap"?

Alright, let's give another example. I like painting miniature figures, and miniature wargaming. I like sci-fi and historical military modeling. Unfortunately, there's a large overlap with these hobbies and very sexist products, as well as a subculture that's unusually interested in recreating Nazi equipment and uniforms compared to the public at large. So it's not uncommon for people to attack the hobby as sexist or overly friendly with nazism. This has beeen going on for a while, so miniature wargaming also is "already a huge target of crap". These are very grave accusations.

I still don't take them personally. Because I know they don't apply to me.

There are some lines of models that feature explicit nudity (both male and female). I dislike these models when contextually inappropriate, but I quite like these models when they fit the context they are made for. There are some people who claim that all wargaming models that feature nudity are bad, and that anyone who likes such models must be a pervert. So there not only is someone criticising something I like, but they're insulting me. And when that happens, I don't lash out the way some people here do when video games get criticized. Because I know the criticism is incorrect. But I'm not so insecure in myself that I have to silence everyone who dislikes what I like.

Face it: you don't have to take it personally when someone criticizes a game or criticizes games in general. You choose to. So the question you have to ask yourself is why you choose to take it personally.

I suspect for a great deal of gamers, the lashing out has less to do with what the criticism is and more to do with who is making the criticism. When Jim Sterling criticizes games, the response isn't nearly as vicious as when a self-professed feminist woman who doesn't look much like a gamer does. So a lot of people respond like they've been personally attacked, because they don't like the messenger. Not because the message demands it.

See now, it seems you don't know what kind of crap games face. Call me when politicians or shitty lawyers try to regulate miniature figures based on stupid assertions. And those models aren't probably even known by 10% of the population. (unlike video games which everyone has heard of).

And secondly, define "lash out". If calling people on their false claims is lashing out than you probably should too when those guys insult your hobby and you.

 

[The Material Sheep]

I don't think the discussion is about whether or not he should be offended or take criticisms seriously. It's whether or not it's wrong to like large breasts in video games. Otherwise I'd agree with you on the matter that it's not reasonable to get upset over things said over the internet.

Also to your last point, I think that's fairly obvious. The criticisms of outsiders who are seen as ignorant of the culture in question, are not going to be received as well as those within the culture who are seen as knowledgeable. Anita Sarkesian (just an example) is not really known for a methodical and fair look at the things she does videos on. To many, it's a ,who the fuck is this lady to criticize what I put so much time and energy into, kinda thing. It's not a -reasonable- response, but it's very understandable, and not exclusive to the video game community.

 

[Seydaman]

The works alone are not the issue, rather the over-prevalence of the same thing. There isn't anything inherently terrible about large breasts or art targeted to heterosexual men/homosexual women, but it becomes an issue when it is the only thing in the medium. It's like if every movie you saw was about an angst ridden teenager being angry about stuff and then getting superpowers or whatever, people would eventually get irritated by the lack of variation.

 

[Mersadeon]

Eh. I think we have about 10 threads about this already. But still, I'll state my opinion.

Aren't the Escapists the guys who think that videogames are art? Well, they are. And you know what? You don't have to like art for it to be art. It can be offensive, disgusting, horrible art, but it is still art and you have NO right to make the artist apologise unless he forced his art on you (by spraypainting it onto your wall or sneaking it unto your computer or something). I don't find the aesthetics of Dragons Crown pleasing, but then again, I don't have nostalgia for that kind of game so I just don't find it interesting at all. But when people start shouting "this is filth", I like to remind them kindly that art is subjective. We might not like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have the same rights as every other piece of art. So yes, you can state your opinion as often as you would like, but that doesn't make you any more right, nor does it make Dragon's Crown objectively bad or takes away its "art-card".

It think the problem that people have isn't really about Dragon's Crown anyway. It isn't about any one particular game and its style. There is room for games where women aren't fleshed-out characters. It's more that there aren't enough games where that isn't the case. But can we blame a single piece of art for it's medium? Can we single out an hentai video and get angry at it for all its stupidity? No. Because the work of art itself is fine. It's the overall trend of the medium we don't like. So please, stop clawing at Dragon's Crown.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Dragon's Crown character design have nothing to do with gaming, and more to do with warped sides of japanese culture. Some japanese gamers love the blatant fan service that can supposedly be laughed off in Japan, where women are treated like second class citizens for the most part. The very fact no females in Japan has complained says enough. The game is pandering by design in an unprofessional way and that's not good. Guess japan doesn't want to cherish its female gamers or lack their of.

Its okay for you like all the things you like, Silver.

George's work is weird and beautiful. Had it pandered less without the over exaggerated characters, it would have still been an awesome game and that's all we'd have to say. Recently arcade classic Dungeons and Dragons came out from Capcom and awesome it was. Its character art still looked cool while not having to resort to this pandering boob crap.

Vanillaware, you are a talented bunch. Next time, be mindful of other nations gamers playing you game, where female gamers enjoy games too and don't need bad representations of their gender.

This kind of silly fan service is what stops anime like Highschool of the Dead from being good, showing its really a Japan problem that many of us don't need, to then later have it divide us. They can't help but pander than just tell a good story.

 

[teisjm]

Am i the only one, who finds it riducouus, when people talk about objectifying characters as solely sex objects, when said characters are immensely powerfull in some way or another?

I haven't played Dragons crown, but i assume the sorceress, as well as all the other characters, are portraited as powerfull, dungeon-sweepers, capable of pwning everything in the game.
Same goes for every game.
Unless you can find a game, where the TnA-lady character is underpowered.

I could hypothethise about all these white knights of the internet, having issues with beeing able to see a woman as beeing powerfull, if she has big tits or something like that.
But i guess i'll stay out of the amateur pop-psychology department.
Sometimes when i read threads like this one, i just can't help but wonder if a lot people see TnA, and power/personallity/other values as mutially exclusive. (yes i see power as a replacement for personallity when talking about a dungeon-crawler character, cause they're rearely personalized much beyond "will clean dungeons for loot"

 

[crazygameguy4ever]

There's nothing wrong with liking certain things, in this case you liking girls with large breasts. everyone has there own thing their attracted to. Personally i'm not really a breast kind of guy, i like girls to have a cup size that's on the small end like A cup... i focus on the girl/women's face not her chest anyways though. Also wearing as little clothing as possible in't as sexy to me as a girl with some clothing on.. leaves more to the imagination rather then spoiling it by flaunting everything she has to everyone. The problem with e dragon's crown game isn't that they decide to have "sexy" girls it's how they did their body shape. impossible tiny waists, with enormous breasts that make them look top heavy isn't sexy it's bizarre and unnatural. doesn't help that they make the breasts jiggle around unnaturally like their bras are filled with jello or something. games like Dead or Alive are also guilty of the over jiggle thing too and it should stop. Breasts move around but not that much. and i heard the upcoming Final Fantasy Lightening returns main character also has jiggling breasts too.. way to go Japan._. we need more realistically proportioned women in games without the stupid pencil thin waists and enormous breasts that jiggle all over unnaturally like..

 

[generals3]

There's nothing wrong with liking certain things, in this case you liking girls with large breasts. everyone has there own thing their attracted to. Personally i'm not really a breast kind of guy, i like girls to have a cup size that's on the small end like A cup... i focus on the girl/women's face not her chest anyways though. Also wearing as little clothing as possible in't as sexy to me as a girl with some clothing on.. leaves more to the imagination rather then spoiling it by flaunting everything she has to everyone. The problem with e dragon's crown game isn't that they decide to have "sexy" girls it's how they did their body shape. impossible tiny waists, with enormous breasts that make them look top heavy isn't sexy it's bizarre and unnatural. doesn't help that they make the breasts jiggle around unnaturally like their bras are filled with jello or something. games like Dead or Alive are also guilty of the over jiggle thing too and it should stop. Breasts move around but not that much. and i heard the upcoming Final Fantasy Lightening returns main character also has jiggling breasts too.. way to go Japan._. we need more realistically proportioned women in games without the stupid pencil thin waists and enormous breasts that jiggle all over unnaturally like..

Since when is realism a valid argument to why games "should" do anything? Look, not liking said art style is fine and dandy but realism is hardly a valid excuse, in VG's of all places, why it "shouldn't" exist.

Should magic in VG's stop? Should respawning in VG's stop?

 

[Yuuki]

I suspect based on my experience with Japanese people, is that when most Japanese women see the character designs in Dragon's Crown they quickly relegate it into the category of fan-service games that are only enjoyed by adolescents or by creepy otaku shut-ins.

Boy have I got news for you, games & media with fanservice (catering to both male and female) are enjoyed by FAR more people than just "adolescents or creepy otaku shut-ins" in Japan. I mean the every fact you automatically placed fanservice in negative light by saying only creeps/shut-ins can enjoy it, shows how little you know about the Japanese way of thinking.
The way it works in Japan is that nobody gives a shit about anyones' hobbies/fantasies as long as said hobbies/fantasies don't affect anyone ELSE negatively, and don't break the law (obviously ). So if someone's a huge fan of tentacle rape hentai, then that's totally fine, society won't look down upon them for it and society won't care. Just as long as they don't start boasting about it in public (that would be very rude/impolite) and keep it to themselves or their friend-circle/club/group who are also into that kind of thing.

That's why you see the weirdest/random/unique shit in Japan, because nobody bothers to criticize something for being sexist/discriminatory if it's purely a piece of fictional fantasy. Japanese consider the idea of devaluing/misrepresenting real-life women or the "image" of women with fantasy oversexualized females as completely laughable & absurd.

Here's how a hypothetical interview would go between Team Ninja (Japanese developer) and a vidoegame feminist:

Feminist: Don't you think this misrepresents and devalues women?
Team Ninja: You mean devalue actual women? Of course not, that's crazy, we respect women. This is purely a work of fiction/fantasy.
Feminist: But it's still sexist against women, they keep wearing sexy outfits and have exaggerated proportions!
Team Ninja: We intended it to be like that, it's purely fantasy. If you don't like it then don't buy our game, give it a bad review, etc. If enough people feel the same way as you do then it will be a huge loss for our studio, and we'll learn from it. Next question please.
Feminist: But I'm criticizing your character design and art style! It's all sexist! Can't you handle criticism?
Team Ninja: Oh yes, we love criticism. Thank you for your feedback. We'll think about it. (hint: zero fucks given)

People from the West have trouble grasping such a thought process, because apparently every piece of art has to be about making a political statement whether fictional or not.