Why are Americans so Patriotic?

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

It is the only country i know of that has enforced pledges of allegiance every morning. so of course they are patriotic, they are brainwashed from the start. doing something like that everyday is going to leave an impression of some kind.

*rolls eyes* that isn't true. I've never once said "the pledge". I don't even know it. Some backwoods school districts might require it, but it's not like you have to send your kids there. I've never heard of anyone who had to say it, especially every morning.

 

[Rikki Allinson]

To quote John Dalberg-Acton, "Power corrupts, and absoulte power corrupts absolutely". Think about if this government gave to ok to do something like what (PRC)China is doing to Tibet, America is doing at Guantanamo Bay, what England did to Ireland/India/China/Africa/Argentina. Who could oppose them? They would be the most powerful organized body in the entire world. It would be to risky to have.

Not disputing your argument (which I mostly agree with), but what exactly did England do to Argentina?

Be among the first to recognise their sovereignty as a nation? Invest heavily in their economy when they most needed it? Lose to their football team due to an illegal handball (and constantly thereafter)? Or defend themselves in the Falkland Islands when the Argentines invaded?

The British Empire did not have a great Human Rights record, but I don't think Argentina is generally included on the list of abuses...

The issue with the Falkland Islands, England has no right being there anymore than they did being in Hong Kong.

Ask that to the people who live there.

The islands were uninhabited when they were discovered, so it was fair game.

When soverignty came into dispute, they even let the islanders vote on who they wanted to be part of.

The British did many terrible things in their colonial days, but the Falklands was not one of them.

"Fair game"? Really? Sounds more like Imperialism to me. Why would a country that is 777.8 miles away from the Faroe Islands, need to go there? Honestly?

The Islands didn't belong to anyone, and that was pretty much the 'in thing' at the time. You know. Finding places.

I meant to type Falklands not Faroe Islands, my bad. Anyways, the whole issue should be between Argentina and the Falklands, England has no right to but in between the two places anymore than it does butting in between any issues Hong Kong has with Mainland China.

But the people want to be British. They voted to remain British.

I'm sure if they were under Argentinian rule for just as long, they would want to remain Argentinian. I think that vote has to do more with people not wanting to change.

It's like North Ireland, in that England is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. Hong Kong could have voted to remain British, but that doesn't change the fact that it's part of (PRC)China.

First England and Britain are not interchangeable, Britain is the union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Hence the island's Being called the British Isle's, not the English Isle's.

Secondly you really are as stated by Matthew94 talking about stuff you obviously don't know enough about to claim your opinions are correct. For example, Hong Kong was on a 99year lease and talks were in place before the lease was up to discuss the possibility of an extension. When the talks didn't amount to anything a handover plan was drawn up. Of interest is the mass emigration of over 1million people who did not want to be in Hong Kong under the PRC which speaks for itself more than you or I could debate otherwise.

Northern Ireland is a tricky subject, as you can visit and ask a wide variety of people in the province weather they wish to remain in the UK or join the Republic of Eire. If they themselves are split on the issue, what on earth makes you who doesn't live there think your right in dictating anti English sentiment, when the people who live in the province can't even agree on who is right or wrong? Also of note is that the split has much less to do with UK vs Eire argument than outsiders think and much more to do with the long established Catholic/Protestant divide.

That aside back to the OT, I have nothing against patriotism, I do however get a very different picture of America from scores of American nationalists on news channels across the globe chanting 'USA' repeatedly when Osama was executed, for a country that advocates justice for all surely they should have been ashamed of themselves for letting such a thing come to pass which was certainly not just let alone jeering it. He may have been an axis of evil but surely he was deserving of a trial. Those types of media portrayals of countless people slurring idiotic remarks make the entire nation look as bad as the Muslim Fanatics who chant 'Death to the west' and give the portrayal of all Americans as uncouth idiots who cant string a sentence together unless it's to chant the nations initials.

Edit: For clarities sake I do know that not all Americans are like those on TV and do not judge the entire populous based on those few individuals.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

Let them have their patriotism.

Their country is still new, they still have time to do a few more war crimes, maybe colonise some places, kill the natives etc.

You're only young once.


*sips tea*

Yes, quite.

But we've done all of that. Several times.

Not properly.

But you're still young yet. You'll learn.

Global land empires are so 1912, global economic empires are where it's at.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

i think there's a difference between patriotism and NATIONALISM, which i think people on this thread are confusing. its fine to be a patriot, patriotism is loyalty and love for ones country. Nationalism is an EXTREME form of that that usually ends up in fascism and sometimes racism.

I would argue that patriotism is a desire to help make ones country a better place. Patriots are people who question their government, who are willing to sacrifice for the greater good of everyone in their country, and who support the original intents of the founding principals of the state in their most distilled form(IE the belief in a higher goal of freedom with the understanding that laws such as slavery didn't always adhere to that goal.)

Nationalism is a desire to forge a nation under one particular strict image. The difference between it and patriotism is that while patriotism strives to make a better country for all who would live there, nationalists are exclusive. They don't like immigrants(and often all minorities including gays, vagrants and so forth), and go beyond wanting to simply make the place better for everyone but to have their place literally dominate and control other nations.

Then there is another large faction that on my quick skimming of this thread I didn't see anyone talk about, which is the loyalists. Most visibly highlighted as the "villains" during the Revolutionary war, and more recently as "heroes" during early Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. They arbitrarily venerate the government as right no matter what. They are the ones who whenever the government is questioned are out there calling people traitors, for having dissenting opinions.





To make the differences more clear for any PolySci majors: I would say that Loyalists support the state over the nation, Nationalists support the nation over the state, and Patriots balance the two and try to follow the founding principles of the Country.

The problem is that most people don't have the time to study the differences and don't want to study the differences. So these very different things all get lumped into the same category as patriot, because the founding fathers were the patriots and so its the politically cool thing to call yourself a patriot without understanding what you really are. On top of this all three factions are prone to wave flags, which makes it confusing to outsiders who want to simply lump them all together rather than taking the time to understand the differences between them.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I didn't say that.......but if you want to get into it, not for the most part.
However if culture A beliefs that its ok to kill babies born with birthmarks, while culture B doesn't, than yep, culture B is superior imo.

But you won't change the opinion of those who adhere to culture A by saying your culture, customs, people and country are superior to theirs.

again....I never brought up who was "better", you did. Also I never said I would try to change their opinion. However discussion about cultural values makes me think of something that Charles James Naiper said when the Hindu practice of Sati was banned,

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours".

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It's like North Ireland, in that England is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.

Don't talk about what you don't know.

I know enough to know that Britain shouldn't be there anymore than the Orange Order.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about especially as your country funded terrorism for decades over here.

My country has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing, but yep your right. Now what? You brought up my country even though it has nothing to do with North Ireland. Congratulations on that. Like I said, the Orange Order should not be in any part of Ireland anymore than the K.K.K. should be in the USA

What does the orange order have to do with England?

Not exactly England, but more so with Britain.

 

[Atheist.]

Because once a day from 5-17 (years old) they're guilt tripped into pledging allegiance to their country before school starts.

 

[Vault Citizen]

America,s history is quit young when compared with a majority of the world they are proud on the little they have )no offense guys but the US government started just around 1800s years ago whilst Europe had kings and queens around the at least the 1500,s)

To back up your point England as a country has been around for one thousand years, not sure when Scotland or Wales were formed and my knowledge on Irish history is equally non existent.

 

[Kathinka]

it might be just an unfair stereotype, but it's generally believed that if you badmouth america, any nearby americans will go up in arms and get very angry, and i'm just wondering why. Just to clarify, i have nothing against america, but i hardly think it's anything to write home about. and don't say that anyone would be that way about their home country, because if someone came up to be and said "hey, england's crap!" i'd just say "yeah, it is a bit"

We have opportunities very few other countries provide. Here you can be an American and still retain culture.

this is also part of the problem: many americans don't know all that much about other places. nowadays pretty much every first world country offers it's citizens the same or more freedoms that americans enjoy. many u.s.-americans don't realize that.
when i lived over there i often heard things like "america is the only truely free nation in the world" or "the usa are the onyl real democracy!"
granted, those are extreme examples, not the rule. but it shows nicely why it is so alienating to the rest of the world.

other countries offer all the nice things the USA do. but their citizens are not being dicks about it.

all in all the concept of 'patriotism' is a stupid, dangerous, useless and anachronistic one anyway.

i think there's a difference between patriotism and NATIONALISM, which i think people on this thread are confusing. its fine to be a patriot, patriotism is loyalty and love for ones country. Nationalism is an EXTREME form of that that usually ends up in fascism and sometimes racism.

yes there is a difference, of course. simply said: nationalism for me is giving greater value to my country than others. patriotism is supporting my country. both are stupid and backwards, one a little more than the other. my country doesn't deserve any more support than namibia or taiwan or any other country in the world.
the whole concept came to be just because we humans are dumb creatures that like to feel as a part of a superior / support-worthy group. usefull back in the day of our furry forefathers, when support of the tribe was essential. nowadays it's just a collective disease that plagues mankind.

 

[moosek]

"Why are American's so patriotic?" "What are [group of people] so [stereotyped]?"

People like to generalize. I think people should have a healthy sense of national pride. I love my country. I was raised in a combination of urban, suburban, and rural settings and I feel that I have fairly solid values. I love this country because of our rich history and diverse settings.

I don't believe in cultural relativity, but there are dumb assholes in every country, it's not your job as a foreigner to paint a target on their back.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

To quote John Dalberg-Acton, "Power corrupts, and absoulte power corrupts absolutely". Think about if this government gave to ok to do something like what (PRC)China is doing to Tibet, America is doing at Guantanamo Bay, what England did to Ireland/India/China/Africa/Argentina. Who could oppose them? They would be the most powerful organized body in the entire world. It would be to risky to have.

Not disputing your argument (which I mostly agree with), but what exactly did England do to Argentina?

Be among the first to recognise their sovereignty as a nation? Invest heavily in their economy when they most needed it? Lose to their football team due to an illegal handball (and constantly thereafter)? Or defend themselves in the Falkland Islands when the Argentines invaded?

The British Empire did not have a great Human Rights record, but I don't think Argentina is generally included on the list of abuses...

The issue with the Falkland Islands, England has no right being there anymore than they did being in Hong Kong.

Ask that to the people who live there.

The islands were uninhabited when they were discovered, so it was fair game.

When soverignty came into dispute, they even let the islanders vote on who they wanted to be part of.

The British did many terrible things in their colonial days, but the Falklands was not one of them.

"Fair game"? Really? Sounds more like Imperialism to me. Why would a country that is 777.8 miles away from the Faroe Islands, need to go there? Honestly?

The Islands didn't belong to anyone, and that was pretty much the 'in thing' at the time. You know. Finding places.

I meant to type Falklands not Faroe Islands, my bad. Anyways, the whole issue should be between Argentina and the Falklands, England has no right to but in between the two places anymore than it does butting in between any issues Hong Kong has with Mainland China.

But the people want to be British. They voted to remain British.

I'm sure if they were under Argentinian rule for just as long, they would want to remain Argentinian. I think that vote has to do more with people not wanting to change.

It's like North Ireland, in that England is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. Hong Kong could have voted to remain British, but that doesn't change the fact that it's part of (PRC)China.

First England and Britain are not interchangeable, Britain is the union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Hence the island's Being called the British Isle's, not the English Isle's.

Secondly you really are as stated by Matthew94 talking about stuff you obviously don't know enough about to claim your opinions are correct. For example, Hong Kong was on a 99year lease and talks were in place before the lease was up to discuss the possibility of an extension. When the talks didn't amount to anything a handover plan was drawn up. Of interest is the mass emigration of over 1million people who did not want to be in Hong Kong under the PRC which speaks for itself more than you or I could debate otherwise.

Northern Ireland is a tricky subject, as you can visit and ask a wide variety of people in the province weather they wish to remain in the UK or join the Republic of Eire. If they themselves are split on the issue, what on earth makes you who doesn't live there think your right in dictating anti English sentiment, when the people who live in the province can't even agree on who is right or wrong? Also of note is that the split has much less to do with UK vs Eire argument than outsiders think and much more to do with the long established Catholic/Protestant divide.

That aside back to the OT, I have nothing against patriotism, I do however get a very different picture of America from scores of American nationalists on news channels across the globe chanting 'USA' repeatedly when Osama was executed, for a country that advocates justice for all surely they should have been ashamed of themselves for letting such a thing come to pass which was certainly not just let alone jeering it. He may have been an axis of evil but surely he was deserving of a trial. Those types of media portrayals of countless people slurring idiotic remarks make the entire nation look as bad as the Muslim Fanatics who chant 'Death to the west' and give the portrayal of all Americans as uncouth idiots who cant string a sentence together unless it's to chant the nations initials.

Edit: For clarities sake I do know that not all Americans are like those on TV and do not judge the entire populous based on those few individuals.

I admit I made the mistake of typing England when I meant Britain.

lol, you know whats funny? The fact that that I see time and time again, English escapist (not all mind you, but a fare share) typing how much America sucks and giving their opinions on domestic American problems and yet when the tables are turned, all of a sudden the response is that because I'm American, your response becomes "your an outsider, so you don't understand and you don't have a right to state an opinion on the subject".
This thread is a perfect example of how non-Americans type about domestic American issues. You know what my response to them is? To look at what they have to say REGARDLESS of their nationality.

 

[zehydra]

American Patriotism is taught to children from an early age, in both the family and in public schools.

I'm an American, and what they're doing here is essentially brainwashing.

If you're over here, and you think we shouldn't be a union of 50 states, like I do, you're regarded as a traitor.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

American Patriotism is taught to children from an early age, in both the family and in public schools.

I'm an American, and what they're doing here is essentially brainwashing.

If you're over here, and you think we shouldn't be a union of 50 states, like I do, you're regarded as a traitor.

I wouldn't want us to break up, but I don't think your a "traitor".

 

[Dr Snakeman]

Nationalism is 'my country, right or wrong.'
Patriotism is 'My country right or wrong, if right to be kept right, if wrong to be set right.'

So many so-called patriots forget the second half of that sentence.

Oh, that's good. Is that actually the way the saying goes? Because I've never heard it that way, even though it's a lot better. I'm going to remember that.

Also...

Let them have their patriotism.

Their country is still new, they still have time to do a few more war crimes, maybe colonise some places, kill the natives etc.

You're only young once.


*sips tea*

Yes, quite.

Somehow, you always manage to say precisely what needs to be said in the funniest way possible.

I keep thinking I may be in love with you. Stop making me feel this...

We should start a Daystar fan club!

>_>

Wait, no, that's not what I meant... that's creepy... we should definitely not.

Um... I'm gonna go now. *scampers off awkwardly*

 

[zehydra]

American Patriotism is taught to children from an early age, in both the family and in public schools.

I'm an American, and what they're doing here is essentially brainwashing.

If you're over here, and you think we shouldn't be a union of 50 states, like I do, you're regarded as a traitor.

I wouldn't want us to break up, but I don't think your a "traitor".

Well that's good to know. Anybody else?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It's like North Ireland, in that England is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.

Don't talk about what you don't know.

I know enough to know that Britain shouldn't be there anymore than the Orange Order.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about especially as your country funded terrorism for decades over here.

My country has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing, but yep your right. Now what? You brought up my country even though it has nothing to do with North Ireland. Congratulations on that. Like I said, the Orange Order should not be in any part of Ireland anymore than the K.K.K. should be in the USA

What does the orange order have to do with England?

Not exactly England, but more so with Britain.

Yeah, but it was formed in NI, not by people from England. The English had no involvement in it's formation.

Seeing as I live here and you are 9000 miles away, I think I know more about the bloody situation in the country than you do.[/quot

It's like North Ireland, in that England is sticking its nose where it doesn't belong.

Don't talk about what you don't know.

I know enough to know that Britain shouldn't be there anymore than the Orange Order.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about especially as your country funded terrorism for decades over here.

My country has nothing to do with what you and I are discussing, but yep your right. Now what? You brought up my country even though it has nothing to do with North Ireland. Congratulations on that. Like I said, the Orange Order should not be in any part of Ireland anymore than the K.K.K. should be in the USA

What does the orange order have to do with England?

Not exactly England, but more so with Britain.

Yeah, but it was formed in NI, not by people from England. The English had no involvement in it's formation.

Seeing as I live here and you are 9000 miles away, I think I know more about the bloody situation in the country than you do.

When I typed that the Orange Order shouldn't be there any more than Britain, I was comparing the two, NOT saying there were the same. I never made the claim that the orange order started in England. Also, I never said you didn't know about the subject, I just defended my claim that I wasn't completely ignorant about the subject.

 

[Rikki Allinson]

lol, you know whats funny? The fact that that I see time and time again, English escapist (not all mind you, but a fare share) typing how much America sucks and giving their opinions on domestic American problems and yet when the tables are turned, all of a sudden the response is that because I'm American, your response becomes "your an outsider, so you don't understand and you don't have a right to state an opinion on the subject".
This thread is a perfect example of how non-Americans type about domestic American issues. You know what my response to them is? To look at what they have to say REGARDLESS of their nationality.

I may have said your opinion was incorrect based on my own knowledge, but not that you should not educate yourself to your own betterment if you wish to comment on things you don't quite know enough about at the time of your posting.

Also I never said America sucks, nor was I (nor anyone else here that I could see) discussing American domestic issues, Others, you and I are commenting on patriotism however I do believe the OP meant 'Nationalistic & Fanatical tendencies'. All I merely stated was just that a small portion of the populous (who jeer and chant and act like toddlers throwing dummies out of their prams) make the whole look bad. Yet somehow that didn't come across in the end of my my post I fear.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

lol, you know whats funny? The fact that that I see time and time again, English escapist (not all mind you, but a fare share) typing how much America sucks and giving their opinions on domestic American problems and yet when the tables are turned, all of a sudden the response is that because I'm American, your response becomes "your an outsider, so you don't understand and you don't have a right to state an opinion on the subject".
This thread is a perfect example of how non-Americans type about domestic American issues. You know what my response to them is? To look at what they have to say REGARDLESS of their nationality.

I may have said your opinion was incorrect based on my own knowledge, but not that you should not educate yourself to your own betterment if you wish to comment on things you don't quite know enough about at the time of your posting.

Also I never said America sucks, nor was I (nor anyone else here that I could see) discussing American domestic issues, Others, you and I are commenting on patriotism however I do believe the OP meant 'Nationalistic & Fanatical tendencies'. All I merely stated was just that a small portion of the populous (who jeer and chant and act like toddlers throwing dummies out of their prams) make the whole look bad. Yet somehow that didn't come across in the end of my my post I fear.

Agreed, I think there is just some miscommunication.