Why are JRPGs so much longer than WRPGs?

[immortalfrieza]

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

Misconception as grinding is not needed (what is needed is to beat every encounter as you're going through an area, and that is grinding as much as facing Skeleton X, Y, and Z when going through a dungeon in WRPG B, C, and D). Hard bosses in JRPGs don't require grinding, merely some knowledge on how to fight.
The likes of Matador in SMT3 doesn't require grinding, he is just there to separate the jobbers from the main event talent.

Basically. I've found that I only spend any time grinding when I don't want to in the rare occasions I'm up against a boss that is particularly hard and/or tricky, otherwise the resources I get from fighting everything on the way to a boss is more than enough, and the grinding rarely takes more than 10-20 minutes when I have to do it anyway. For the record, because of what I've learned from the lifetime of playing RPGs these days I usually grind quite a bit whenever I can find a decent opportunity just to make victory a little more assured, including doing all the sidequests.

Snip

Pal, if you think the Tales games are "cartoony, childish, or girly" you've never actually played one. The games are always VERY serious and mature overall, and can get VERY dark, frequently from the very beginning. Sure, there's humor spread throughout, but that just makes the maturity, seriousness, and darkness stand out more. Even the anime style of the games doesn't always look very cartoony. The plots are also significantly less cliched than most.


OT: A lot of people here are saying things like "WRPGs are sidequest and choice focused" and "JRPGs are focused on the story with few sidequests" as well as the grinding. This is wrong, there's plenty of JRPGs (Final Fantasy 12, Xenoblade Chronicles, most Metroidvania games just to name a few) that are focused on sidequests over story, or in addition to story, and plenty of WRPGs (Fable series, anything by Bioware, Dead Island off the top of my head) that focus on story over sidequests or in addition to sidequests, both can be equally grindy and exploration based, and both have plenty that are short 20 hour long romps or 100 hour long epics. The line between the two genres isn't anywhere near as wide as people think.

 

[duwenbasden]

JRPGs just seem like huge, long games taking up many hours of your time. WRPGs are also pretty long but I feel like due to the increased emphasis on choice, you get less content in a single linear playthrough, they seem a lot shorter.

But a standard JRPG like FF or Valkaryia Chronicles will easily stretch past the 50 hour mark, but most WRPGs are around the 20-30 hour mark but you might get the odd outlier (50 for Dragon Age Origins, about 90 for Skyrim)

Why is this, and why do JRPGs have tons of cinematics, whilst WRPGs find it more difficuly to incorporate as many cinematics without cutting down on game length?

Not really. I have 54 hours on Pokemon X and 250 hours on Skyrim, and enjoyed most of the time in them. I say about even. I did the Civil War quest after 200 hours, and the E4 after 50 hours and only after a long "ffffffinnneeeeeeeee" sigh. Having a story is fine, but if you think your story is more important than mine you can fuck right off. I am not your taxi driver along your plotted line.

Also, more chance of a JRPG character grinding my gears and stuck with him/her for the rest of the game. I will gladly listen to M'aiq for his absolutely asinine opinions; but I have the urge to turn off my game every time Shawna opens her fucking mouth for her absolutely asinine opinions.

 

[Krige]

My point is that TES games strive through dicking around and user generated content and the vast world to put that into.

I agree and that's why I say that this dicking around is the real meat of the game.

 

[infohippie]

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

 

[RealRT]

Because brevity is the soul of wit and JRPGs clearly have neither.
*ba-dum-tish*

I agree. everyone have different taste and i respect it but i rather play this
Badass game over this
Cartoony, childish or girly game. no offence.

Yeah, lest we all forget that using a video game controller to maneuver some dark-and-edgy shadow knight with chain mail and scars is totally more adult and manly than using it to maneuver a set of Japanese anime characters. Shouldn't we be talking about the gameplay?

What? I'm under an impression that you spent last five years under a rock when it comes to RPGs and games in general if you call Geralt that.

 

[immortalfrieza]

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

No, in fact you can set up all emulators to work with either keyboard and mouse or controllers pretty easily as long as the game doesn't require motion controls. If it does use motion controls it's a pain in the ass to get it to work, so I don't play any that require it. Also, I should mention emulators are usually at least a console generation behind, so don't expect to be playing PS3 or 360 games or anything like that for a while.

For the record, I greatly prefer using controllers, simply because it's easier and more comfortable.

 

[endtherapture]

I hate the whole "childish" or "anime" graphics vs. realistic debate that always seem to go on. People really need to open their minds and not instantly judge.

I can go back to my gamecube and play Baten Kaitos, or Tales of Symphonia, or Wind Waker, and still think they look beautiful, they still hold up graphically today; The same cannot be said for any "realistic" game of the time.

The graphics and art style lend themselves to better performing games, and help to further the universe they are trying to create. JRPGs are rarely (if ever) set on earth, or even an earth like planet. They have entire wacky universes with things that just wouldn't be possible in an earth like world; I mean.. where is fallout set? Earth, post apocolyptically, but that is by design. Where is Skyrim set? Might as well be earth sometime in the past. Where is the Witcher set? might as well be earth. Where is Fable set? might as well be earth with magic.

Disclaimer: I am not by any means saying WRPGs are bad, I tend to enjoy JRPGs more because I like story driven games, but that isn't to say I haven't had my fair share of fun in WRPGs, I like a majority of them (besides Skyrim which I hated).

It's not even a realism issue, it's blatant ignorance. It's the ignorance spurned from people seeing animation and instantly thinking of it as childish in the US.


Japanese games lack this problem, they don't have any connotation like that. A game with anime graphics is just a game with anime graphics, it's not "cartoony" or "childish" any more so than a game like the Witcher. It's just an art style which people like and can have any kind of themes you wanna put in your game.

Yep it's so ignorant. Anime is just an art style and it can be used in a number of ways and encompass different tones. There's the more realistic stuff like Final Fantasy vs more cel shaded stuff like Wind Waker and watercolour style like Valkaryia Chronicles. I personally think the range of expressions you can get with an exaggerated anime character in a game is far superior to current attempts to realistically model facial expressions in Western games.

 

[Nanondorf]

I'd have to say that it really depends on the games themselves rather than the dev being jap-western. RPGs generally have at least 25-30 hours of gameplay for me , but some games, having too many extra objectives but still mantaining the fun factor can keep me going for double that time and then some (Skyrim,Xenoblade).
I noticed that most not-so subtle differences between them are found in gameplay, where WRPGs tend to prefer real-time combat instead of turn-based. As far as story progression goes, most JRPGs are linear to a fault, but still encourage some backtracking, while WRPGs let you run wild or complete objectives in any order.
Also is it just me, or are JRPG devs high on drugs when they write their story? Most of those plots are completely bonkers, and maybe that's what I like so much about them.

 

[infohippie]

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

No, in fact you can set up all emulators to work with either keyboard and mouse or controllers pretty easily as long as the game doesn't require motion controls. If it does use motion controls it's a pain in the ass to get it to work, so I don't play any that require it. Also, I should mention emulators are usually at least a console generation behind, so don't expect to be playing PS3 or 360 games or anything like that for a while.

For the record, I greatly prefer using controllers, simply because it's easier and more comfortable.

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

Actually, I believe that in most cases it's actually harder to use a controller with most emulators, and even then I think you have to use a program like Joy2Key.

Well, thank you. I might have to start looking into emulation then, and give some JRPGs a try. I have heard good things about Bravely Default, for example.

 

[Greg White]

My point is that TES games strive through dicking around and user generated content and the vast world to put that into.

I agree and that's why I say that this dicking around is the real meat of the game.

I wouldn't call all the guild quests dicking around per se, it's just that most of what's out there isn't directly related to the 'main story.' Hell, some of the guild quests are better than the main quest.

The user generated stuff is just a nice addition.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Well, thank you. I might have to start looking into emulation then, and give some JRPGs a try. I have heard good things about Bravely Default, for example.

Bravely Default is VERY good, even if the second half is a bit lacking. Sadly it's pretty unlikely you'll be able to find an emulator out there capable of playing it for a good while and it would require special equipment to rip the rom from the cartridge anyway, at least if you wanted to get it legally. You should probably get the new 3DS when it comes out if you don't already have the old one.

Actually, I believe that in most cases it's actually harder to use a controller with most emulators, and even then I think you have to use a program like Joy2Key.

All the emulators I've ever used have no problem with controllers, simply go into the emulator's menu and set it up. I use the Xbox 360 controller for windows with mine and it works perfectly.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I hate the whole "childish" or "anime" graphics vs. realistic debate that always seem to go on. People really need to open their minds and not instantly judge.

I can go back to my gamecube and play Baten Kaitos, or Tales of Symphonia, or Wind Waker, and still think they look beautiful, they still hold up graphically today; The same cannot be said for any "realistic" game of the time.

The graphics and art style lend themselves to better performing games, and help to further the universe they are trying to create. JRPGs are rarely (if ever) set on earth, or even an earth like planet. They have entire wacky universes with things that just wouldn't be possible in an earth like world; I mean.. where is fallout set? Earth, post apocolyptically, but that is by design. Where is Skyrim set? Might as well be earth sometime in the past. Where is the Witcher set? might as well be earth. Where is Fable set? might as well be earth with magic.

Disclaimer: I am not by any means saying WRPGs are bad, I tend to enjoy JRPGs more because I like story driven games, but that isn't to say I haven't had my fair share of fun in WRPGs, I like a majority of them (besides Skyrim which I hated).

It's not even a realism issue, it's blatant ignorance. It's the ignorance spurned from people seeing animation and instantly thinking of it as childish in the US.


Japanese games lack this problem, they don't have any connotation like that. A game with anime graphics is just a game with anime graphics, it's not "cartoony" or "childish" any more so than a game like the Witcher. It's just an art style which people like and can have any kind of themes you wanna put in your game.

Yep it's so ignorant. Anime is just an art style and it can be used in a number of ways and encompass different tones. There's the more realistic stuff like Final Fantasy vs more cel shaded stuff like Wind Waker and watercolour style like Valkaryia Chronicles. I personally think the range of expressions you can get with an exaggerated anime character in a game is far superior to current attempts to realistically model facial expressions in Western games.

That's because of a core difference in philosophy. In Japanese games, the ideal aimed at with a game is that of a living playable Anime. Their philosophy is that "fantasy/2D>reality/3D" and thus we get the games that we do. Western games on the other hand are bent on simulating reality really well and thus forgo the larger realm of possibilities made available to game-makers out of the virtue of the medium.


Frankly, it's easier to sell a game when you don't ask for suspension of disbelief. It's easier to sell a game about a gangster than about a magic ninja traitor, even though the two stories will share a lot and one who likes one will like the other. People simply won't give the magic ninja a chance cause the premise is "too silly" for them to take seriously. Unless we solve this issue things won't change and making a million realistic gangster games will not help at all in this area.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

snip

See, that's not the problem, different tastes and all that, the problem is you were saying one genre is better quality than the other and that JRPGs just go for quantity, when you get something like Skyrim being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread and it's a buggy mess saved only by mods.

A question, have you even played Tales of Zestiria, to call it childish or girly? Or are you judging a book by its cover?

Well, I dont see any way he COULD play it, considering that the game isn't even out yet.

Well, didn't know that, and that just proves it's just judging a book by its cover, which isn't something to be proud of.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

snip

See, that's not the problem, different tastes and all that, the problem is you were saying one genre is better quality than the other and that JRPGs just go for quantity, when you get something like Skyrim being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread and it's a buggy mess saved only by mods.

A question, have you even played Tales of Zestiria, to call it childish or girly? Or are you judging a book by its cover?

Well, I dont see any way he COULD play it, considering that the game isn't even out yet.

Well, didn't know that, and that just proves it's just judging a book by its cover, which isn't something to be proud of.

That'd be the case if this game was a new IP. This is a main tales game, a series that has been going for like 20 years and has consistent themes. No, his error is far more egregious since the accusations he leverages are flatly untrue. He didn't just judge a book by its cover, he judged a book by the genre. Like, he looked at the bookshelf with the label "anime" and aimlessly decreed all the books in there to be childish girly and whatever else. Regardless of their varied content. It's ultimate level ignorance, basically.

 

[Caostotale]

What? I'm under an impression that you spent last five years under a rock when it comes to RPGs and games in general if you call Geralt that.

I actually don't know shit about either of the games that were pictured in that post, and my knowing the details of either game's characters is completely beside the point. I was reacting to the poster's comically-'Western' pandering to an ever-assumed group of bro-gamers who need all of their games to be 'adult', 'mature', 'bad-ass' etc... as if such stylistic choices make any fucking difference in the grand scheme of things.

For what it's worth, for years now, the most 'mature' and 'adult' gamers I've personally known (based on how old they are, how stable their lives are, whether they have kids, how much money they put into their gaming habits, etc...) are generally people I've met in the Japanese shmup/arcade-game crowd, a scene where tons of the games have bright and flashy colors, silly teenaged anime characters, upbeat dance music, etc... yet nobody in that group of gamers ever seems to give a flying fuck about how 'childish' some of the games look, keeping their criticisms aimed at things like the games' technical characteristics, scoring systems, levels of challenge, etc...

 

[RealRT]

What? I'm under an impression that you spent last five years under a rock when it comes to RPGs and games in general if you call Geralt that.

I actually don't know shit about either of the games that were pictured in that post, and my knowing the details of either game's characters is completely beside the point. I was reacting to the poster's comically-'Western' pandering to an ever-assumed group of bro-gamers who need all of their games to be 'adult', 'mature', 'bad-ass' etc... as if such stylistic choices make any fucking difference in the grand scheme of things.

For what it's worth, for years now, the most 'mature' and 'adult' gamers I've personally known (based on how old they are, how stable their lives are, whether they have kids, how much money they put into their gaming habits, etc...) are generally people I've met in the Japanese shmup/arcade-game crowd, a scene where tons of the games have bright and flashy colors, silly teenaged anime characters, upbeat dance music, etc... yet nobody in that group of gamers ever seems to give a flying fuck about how 'childish' some of the games look, keeping their criticisms aimed at things like the games' technical characteristics, scoring systems, levels of challenge, etc...

The Witcher series is well-known for being mature not only in style, but in storytelling, with morally grey choices and dilemmas made in a bleak world filled with all kinds of -isms and Game of Thrones-like political intrigue. Based off the book series by Anrzej Sapkowski. So, actually The Witcher is a good example of a WRPG. Now that other game looks generic.