I'd be a lot less bitter if they fucking released Enslaved and Red Dead Redemption for the PC already.
Why are MOST PC gamers full of so much hatred towards Consoles?
- Thread starter Krylock
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...I only really hate the Xbox(&360). Microsoft is making how much money on poorly engineered, substandard hardware? Nothing wrong with console gaming as a whole, I just wish there were better peripherals available for consoles...
Oh, and no Red Dead Redemption on PC makes me angry as well.
Oh, and no Red Dead Redemption on PC makes me angry as well.
Hmm. My first post. Better make it a good one. On such an old chestnut - so let's say something interesting (which 90% of the OP's comments weren't). Oh, and I've helped build some of the games you all like flaming each over, although I'm well aware that claiming this on the internet is about as compelling as declaring a wild and deep love for French Cheese.
The issue isn't "PC Gamers vrs Console Gamers", the issue is "Corporate Control vrs Invidualisation & Innovation". A poster above almost nailed the issue.
I've been around since the Sinclair ZX81. Through the Dragon / BBC micro wars (were *you* a spectrum or a C64 supporter?!?), through the entire Amiga vrs PC entry and so on and so forth. Competition of "your" brand versus "their" brand has a well oiled history and is largely fueled and run by the marketing departments of games companies. This was the case in Spectrum vrs C64 - its certainly the case in "PC vrs XBOX". With the added gold plated irony that, yes, Microsoft is playing both sides of the field here.
The issue you're trying to discuss, and missing, has been around since before consoles really existed (barring Sega etc, which were a separate market then) - and boils down to "Did EA buy your company then destroy it?". Corporations such as EA are on record as being essentially "anti" the consumers of their products; and, at least in their early incarnations, "anti" the very people who produced said games (for the youngsters: google "EA Spouse"). Profit comes before any other consideration - and if that means a sub-par product then they don't care, as long as initial sales hit targets (notice how PC games now ship with huge bugs? There's one argument that they always did - however, being on this side of the business fence, all I'll say is: there didn't use to be the cynical release of software known to be full of bugs. The ancient tug of war between developers and publishers is now so firmly rooted in "ship or die" that, well... Obsidian can still make games, for instance).
A little tangent for some thinking on what each "side" of this "conflict" represents:
PC Gaming:
Little or no bar to market entry - you can still (just about - Steam is 50% evil, 50% a god send here) sit down in front of a computer, write your code and make a game. This is where all your games came from. There's an immense amount of freedom; there's also an immense amount of junk. Valve's business model at the moment is actually the best in the field in that it basically co-opts "wild talent" in the modding community and makes it make them money. Vast sums of money. (To whomever commented on Valve / Steam producing bad games - seriously. Stay in school.)
However, given the average sophistication of 3rd party tool & languages used, people can still take something like TES IV or Never Winter Nights II (Aside: someone needs to nuke Obsidian from orbit), engage their imagination, and make content.
For FREE
For EVER
This is why NW1 is still played online; why Rogue-a-likes still keep coming; why innovative Indy games are still being made.
For corporations, this is bad news: modding is free. When people are playing modded content, they're not buying your next AA title mark X.
Consoles:
Sega piloted a business model essentially precluding anyone from developing on their system who wasn't tied to a cast iron contract. Every other console developer has gone the same way, and are exclusionary - if you sample, for instance, the Indy content for the XBOX live you'll quickly see this. Developing for a AA console is a total nightmare - both contractually & code wise. You wonder why your Console > PC port are usually so bad? Look at the code behind it (or don't - they don't like you doing it).
The ideal Console consumer is someone who passively buys an experience (your game), and then buys the next 5 upgrades in the franchise. EA brought this to the PC (although, is not the only one - 2K games not releasing modding tools for BioShock caused huge amounts of ill feeling, especially given the history of the brand they were adding to) - however, developers such as Square Enix for consoles practically raised this to an art form. I believe Mr Croshaw pointed this out in their latest "experience". (Small aside - I note a poster here commented that RPGs on consoles are better. To this, I can just laugh. Oh dear oh dear.)
This difference is why "PC gamers" are so full of angst - they're well able to both see through PR (DLC - the latest micro-payment scam, shameful to the business) and in many cases make a better game than the actual development team with the correct tools. I'd urge you, for instance, to check out healthy modding communities and witness what a "cloud" type development cycle can do for a game - TES IV is the perfect example.
Anyhow, that's enough for now.
Tl;dr
The issue is "passive consumer" vrs "active participant" - if you can't see it, it usually means you're on the wrong side. This is why Zombie games are so "of the moment" - we're subconciously fighting against being turned into passive consumers of (often poor) product.
The issue isn't "PC Gamers vrs Console Gamers", the issue is "Corporate Control vrs Invidualisation & Innovation". A poster above almost nailed the issue.
I've been around since the Sinclair ZX81. Through the Dragon / BBC micro wars (were *you* a spectrum or a C64 supporter?!?), through the entire Amiga vrs PC entry and so on and so forth. Competition of "your" brand versus "their" brand has a well oiled history and is largely fueled and run by the marketing departments of games companies. This was the case in Spectrum vrs C64 - its certainly the case in "PC vrs XBOX". With the added gold plated irony that, yes, Microsoft is playing both sides of the field here.
The issue you're trying to discuss, and missing, has been around since before consoles really existed (barring Sega etc, which were a separate market then) - and boils down to "Did EA buy your company then destroy it?". Corporations such as EA are on record as being essentially "anti" the consumers of their products; and, at least in their early incarnations, "anti" the very people who produced said games (for the youngsters: google "EA Spouse"). Profit comes before any other consideration - and if that means a sub-par product then they don't care, as long as initial sales hit targets (notice how PC games now ship with huge bugs? There's one argument that they always did - however, being on this side of the business fence, all I'll say is: there didn't use to be the cynical release of software known to be full of bugs. The ancient tug of war between developers and publishers is now so firmly rooted in "ship or die" that, well... Obsidian can still make games, for instance).
A little tangent for some thinking on what each "side" of this "conflict" represents:
PC Gaming:
Little or no bar to market entry - you can still (just about - Steam is 50% evil, 50% a god send here) sit down in front of a computer, write your code and make a game. This is where all your games came from. There's an immense amount of freedom; there's also an immense amount of junk. Valve's business model at the moment is actually the best in the field in that it basically co-opts "wild talent" in the modding community and makes it make them money. Vast sums of money. (To whomever commented on Valve / Steam producing bad games - seriously. Stay in school.)
However, given the average sophistication of 3rd party tool & languages used, people can still take something like TES IV or Never Winter Nights II (Aside: someone needs to nuke Obsidian from orbit), engage their imagination, and make content.
For FREE
For EVER
This is why NW1 is still played online; why Rogue-a-likes still keep coming; why innovative Indy games are still being made.
For corporations, this is bad news: modding is free. When people are playing modded content, they're not buying your next AA title mark X.
Consoles:
Sega piloted a business model essentially precluding anyone from developing on their system who wasn't tied to a cast iron contract. Every other console developer has gone the same way, and are exclusionary - if you sample, for instance, the Indy content for the XBOX live you'll quickly see this. Developing for a AA console is a total nightmare - both contractually & code wise. You wonder why your Console > PC port are usually so bad? Look at the code behind it (or don't - they don't like you doing it).
The ideal Console consumer is someone who passively buys an experience (your game), and then buys the next 5 upgrades in the franchise. EA brought this to the PC (although, is not the only one - 2K games not releasing modding tools for BioShock caused huge amounts of ill feeling, especially given the history of the brand they were adding to) - however, developers such as Square Enix for consoles practically raised this to an art form. I believe Mr Croshaw pointed this out in their latest "experience". (Small aside - I note a poster here commented that RPGs on consoles are better. To this, I can just laugh. Oh dear oh dear.)
This difference is why "PC gamers" are so full of angst - they're well able to both see through PR (DLC - the latest micro-payment scam, shameful to the business) and in many cases make a better game than the actual development team with the correct tools. I'd urge you, for instance, to check out healthy modding communities and witness what a "cloud" type development cycle can do for a game - TES IV is the perfect example.
Anyhow, that's enough for now.
Tl;dr
The issue is "passive consumer" vrs "active participant" - if you can't see it, it usually means you're on the wrong side. This is why Zombie games are so "of the moment" - we're subconciously fighting against being turned into passive consumers of (often poor) product.
i dont blame the TC. ive seen a lot of pc gamers make personal attacks against either console gamers or people who want to make a gaming pc and the "elitists" start attacking them like they killed their dog
thing is. these topics and the phrase pc gaming is dead wont stop until pc gamers stop acting like what i mentioned above.
thing is. these topics and the phrase pc gaming is dead wont stop until pc gamers stop acting like what i mentioned above.
The premise of the title is faulty. Best you can do is ask: "Why are SOME PC gamers full of so much hatred toward consoles." I would say most PC gamers support peaceful coexistence.
With that said, console gaming has brought about certain attitudes which has diminished PC gaming. For example, no private servers for your favorite shooter? Thank you consoles. Dumbed down controls and user interface? Thank you consoles. A trend toward reducing customizability options? Probably, again, consoles are to blame. Reduced modding options... yup. Less inventiveness of gaming in general? Kinect aside, most major gameplay developments like online gaming and 3D acceleration began on the PC. Dumber games in general. Yeah, that's a trend that seemed to start in the console domain too.
(Now I'm not saying dumb is easy, but if the entire goal of the game is to place a cursor over a target and pull the trigger, it just isn't very deep, and same goes for quick-time events. For those who like deeper gameplay, we've lost it on the PC in lieu of games that conform to console controls.)
Naturally there are plenty of rebuttals to the above statements i.e. "didn't shooters start on PCs?" and "name me a PC game that is deeper than, say, Final Fantasy Tactics?" and this is all true which brings me back to the first line of this post. The PC is to blame too, being a platform that is very difficult to develop for given the multiplicity of harware, drivers, and operating systems, which has only gotten worse over time.
I like my PS3 and I love my PSP, but neither has provided me with a rewarding and lasting gameplay experience that stands up to the best PC games, though I think they are capable of it and hopefully will some day. While the PC gaming scene isn't dead, one would be in denial to say it is alive and well.
Sorry for this TL;DR post but once you get me started sometimes I can't stop.
With that said, console gaming has brought about certain attitudes which has diminished PC gaming. For example, no private servers for your favorite shooter? Thank you consoles. Dumbed down controls and user interface? Thank you consoles. A trend toward reducing customizability options? Probably, again, consoles are to blame. Reduced modding options... yup. Less inventiveness of gaming in general? Kinect aside, most major gameplay developments like online gaming and 3D acceleration began on the PC. Dumber games in general. Yeah, that's a trend that seemed to start in the console domain too.
(Now I'm not saying dumb is easy, but if the entire goal of the game is to place a cursor over a target and pull the trigger, it just isn't very deep, and same goes for quick-time events. For those who like deeper gameplay, we've lost it on the PC in lieu of games that conform to console controls.)
Naturally there are plenty of rebuttals to the above statements i.e. "didn't shooters start on PCs?" and "name me a PC game that is deeper than, say, Final Fantasy Tactics?" and this is all true which brings me back to the first line of this post. The PC is to blame too, being a platform that is very difficult to develop for given the multiplicity of harware, drivers, and operating systems, which has only gotten worse over time.
I like my PS3 and I love my PSP, but neither has provided me with a rewarding and lasting gameplay experience that stands up to the best PC games, though I think they are capable of it and hopefully will some day. While the PC gaming scene isn't dead, one would be in denial to say it is alive and well.
Sorry for this TL;DR post but once you get me started sometimes I can't stop.
I built myself a really awesome gaming rig, and really the only clear cut advantage I see is less load times and mods. If there's a single player game that I want I'll usually opt for the PC version for those reasons.
That said, I can understand preference, but HATRED towards consoles? Because of tech differences? I don't fucking get that at all. I HATE THE XBOX BECAUSE MY COMPUTER CAN PROCESS A COMPLEX TEXTURE IN SLIGHTLY HIGHER DETAIL WHICH YOU CAN KIND OF SEE IF YOU HOLD A MAGNIFYING GLASS TO MY SUPER MASSIVE 27 INCH COMPUTER MONITOR! By the way, if you actually want to disparage consoles as gaming platforms just because of slightly less cutting edge tech, Crysis had better be what you regard as the best game of all time until Crysis 2 comes out and instantly replaces it, or your whole stance of logic falls apart. Also, you better not like Half life 2 anymore, because even by console standards, that game looks dated as fuck.
To me if a game is fun I don't give a shit what it's on. I actually prefer the consoles just because most PC exclusives tend to be MMOs, RTS games, and single player RPGs that vaguely imitate MMOs in formatting, none of which strike me as particularly intriguing compared to console exclusives like Uncharted, God of War, Smash Bros, Heavy Rain, and Gears. If you think WoW is great, by all means like WoW. I'm not going to sit here and berate you for it. I disagree with that opinion, but I don't really give a fuck enough to brew hatred towards some game that I don't even have to acknowledge or play because some people like it.
Basically, in short, elitism is stupid no matter where it's coming from. Personally I find it much more obnoxious when it's typed out by smug nerds who go out of there way to use the most condescending language possible than when some drunk fratboy yells "I FUCKIN LOVE THE XBOX" but that's just me.
That said, I can understand preference, but HATRED towards consoles? Because of tech differences? I don't fucking get that at all. I HATE THE XBOX BECAUSE MY COMPUTER CAN PROCESS A COMPLEX TEXTURE IN SLIGHTLY HIGHER DETAIL WHICH YOU CAN KIND OF SEE IF YOU HOLD A MAGNIFYING GLASS TO MY SUPER MASSIVE 27 INCH COMPUTER MONITOR! By the way, if you actually want to disparage consoles as gaming platforms just because of slightly less cutting edge tech, Crysis had better be what you regard as the best game of all time until Crysis 2 comes out and instantly replaces it, or your whole stance of logic falls apart. Also, you better not like Half life 2 anymore, because even by console standards, that game looks dated as fuck.
To me if a game is fun I don't give a shit what it's on. I actually prefer the consoles just because most PC exclusives tend to be MMOs, RTS games, and single player RPGs that vaguely imitate MMOs in formatting, none of which strike me as particularly intriguing compared to console exclusives like Uncharted, God of War, Smash Bros, Heavy Rain, and Gears. If you think WoW is great, by all means like WoW. I'm not going to sit here and berate you for it. I disagree with that opinion, but I don't really give a fuck enough to brew hatred towards some game that I don't even have to acknowledge or play because some people like it.
Basically, in short, elitism is stupid no matter where it's coming from. Personally I find it much more obnoxious when it's typed out by smug nerds who go out of there way to use the most condescending language possible than when some drunk fratboy yells "I FUCKIN LOVE THE XBOX" but that's just me.
I have nothing against consoles... its just that most conversations on the subject go a little like this:
"You have an xbox?"
"Uh yeah, but I'm more of a PC gamer..."
"PC's are stupid! Xbox is better, why do you hate consoles?!"
"Umm... I never said-"
"WHY DO YOU HATE CONSOLES?!"
"You have an xbox?"
"Uh yeah, but I'm more of a PC gamer..."
"PC's are stupid! Xbox is better, why do you hate consoles?!"
"Umm... I never said-"
"WHY DO YOU HATE CONSOLES?!"
Generally, I believe that there is no difference between - Consoles and PCs. Indeed Pcs are incredible, work well, and require a somewhat "skill" to easily navigate the keyboard. But again Consoles are in the same respect and require a similar muscle memory (being able to use a keyboard/game controller without looking).
I have also heard that Console gamers have auto-aim and this makes it so that Consoles require no skill. This was remedied on the 1st page, who said "Most PC gamers hate Console FPS's because they think it takes no skill because of Auto-aim, etc. But it's actually more complex than it seems, and it is actually skillful in many ways. Console gamers notice this because they are regulars to console gaming. Most PC gamers don't because they are not regulars to console gaming. It works vice verse and so on and so forth.
The PC gamers that only play on the PC, can't really make comparison and judgement calls on whats better. All they see is the FPS that they play with a mouse and keyboard, which requires somewhat skill, but they don't see the Console side from a clear point of view.
Console FPS's are not just "Hold down trigger and spray bullets BOOM HEADSHOT i am leet". Even with auto-aim most FPS's take skill. Not any regular average joe can just pick up a controller and become pro, because they have aim assist. It takes good reflexes, situational awareness, somewhat decent aiming skills, and etc and so on." There is also the option of turning it off, I have never been given this option so I assume that it's already off - and if auto-aim is sticky aim where it switches to a enemy for you - it's shit. Have you ever tried sprinting to cover and your player stops dead to centre on a enemy - it's a death sentence if your difficulty is like Impossible/Legendary/Veteran. Plus it doesn't have auto-aim online.
I have also heard that Console gamers have auto-aim and this makes it so that Consoles require no skill. This was remedied on the 1st page, who said "Most PC gamers hate Console FPS's because they think it takes no skill because of Auto-aim, etc. But it's actually more complex than it seems, and it is actually skillful in many ways. Console gamers notice this because they are regulars to console gaming. Most PC gamers don't because they are not regulars to console gaming. It works vice verse and so on and so forth.
The PC gamers that only play on the PC, can't really make comparison and judgement calls on whats better. All they see is the FPS that they play with a mouse and keyboard, which requires somewhat skill, but they don't see the Console side from a clear point of view.
Console FPS's are not just "Hold down trigger and spray bullets BOOM HEADSHOT i am leet". Even with auto-aim most FPS's take skill. Not any regular average joe can just pick up a controller and become pro, because they have aim assist. It takes good reflexes, situational awareness, somewhat decent aiming skills, and etc and so on." There is also the option of turning it off, I have never been given this option so I assume that it's already off - and if auto-aim is sticky aim where it switches to a enemy for you - it's shit. Have you ever tried sprinting to cover and your player stops dead to centre on a enemy - it's a death sentence if your difficulty is like Impossible/Legendary/Veteran. Plus it doesn't have auto-aim online.
FANBOY ALERT, seriously dude, do you know what you are saying, games are meant to entertain if someone is more entertained by a pc fair enough but the "standard" of the entertainment value of consoles is pretty good thanks, now don't mind me you just go back to being superior than the rest of us console paupersteh_gunslinger said:
I just cannot get into PC gaming. At all. I've tried for years, and I have put up with years of crap.
I never bought a custom-built PC, because why should I have to? All my PC games have been run on my home PC, and whilst I've had many happy hours of gaming, there are more than a few flaws; the graphical fuck-ups, the sound that refuses to work, the game that suffers a catastrophic crash just before the end, the fact that only a retard thinks keyboard and mouse is good for FPS gaming, the fact that setting up multiplayer takes six hours of planning (admittedly, this is now a problem on consoles to, but back in the days of local multiplayer it was not), and the fact I can never find the right bastard patch to make my game run properly.
Thank Odin for consoles! Does my Console have the specs to run the game I want? Of course it does! Installation time? None! (okay, again, these days that isn't true...) What if I want to play with friends? I just invite them over! Console gaming won me over a long, long time ago, and though I will always have fond memories of PC gaming (Chocks Away and Alien Invasion on the Archimedes remain the greatest games I ever had the pleasure of playing) I am now past the point where I am willing to listen to fanboyism over how epic gaming would be, and that if I wasn't such a n00b I'd spend all the money I have on a computer that'll be obsolete in six months.
Console gaming is how gaming is meant to be; it is gaming for the masses, on as equal terms as one can get.
I never bought a custom-built PC, because why should I have to? All my PC games have been run on my home PC, and whilst I've had many happy hours of gaming, there are more than a few flaws; the graphical fuck-ups, the sound that refuses to work, the game that suffers a catastrophic crash just before the end, the fact that only a retard thinks keyboard and mouse is good for FPS gaming, the fact that setting up multiplayer takes six hours of planning (admittedly, this is now a problem on consoles to, but back in the days of local multiplayer it was not), and the fact I can never find the right bastard patch to make my game run properly.
Thank Odin for consoles! Does my Console have the specs to run the game I want? Of course it does! Installation time? None! (okay, again, these days that isn't true...) What if I want to play with friends? I just invite them over! Console gaming won me over a long, long time ago, and though I will always have fond memories of PC gaming (Chocks Away and Alien Invasion on the Archimedes remain the greatest games I ever had the pleasure of playing) I am now past the point where I am willing to listen to fanboyism over how epic gaming would be, and that if I wasn't such a n00b I'd spend all the money I have on a computer that'll be obsolete in six months.
Console gaming is how gaming is meant to be; it is gaming for the masses, on as equal terms as one can get.
You just don't like console shooters, doesn't mean it is flawed. A controller couldn't beat a keyboard at a FPS game but in what universe would people even want to do that anyways?ciortas1 said:
The car you have sucks because it its not a formula 1 race car, it is inherently flawed. Its much slower, you can't even drift on the roads you drive on.
That's a fallacy, though.Douk said:
People have computers anyway.
Gaming PCs tend not to be in addition to a non-gaming computer. Ok, mine is, but I'm in the IT business.
Add to that a massive library of games, some 100x greater than any one console, not counting free games and piracy, you can be a PC gamer for less $ than console.
Someone was quoting ridiculous sales figures earlier ... so that means devs who want to make money target consoles, sure.
And shock horror, retail sales figures do not include microtransactions (from sims to runescape to mass effect 2), time cards (millions of people in south korea play starcraft 2 without buying it), small games (as embarassed as I am about facebook "games," those things are scary massive), subscriptions (WoW has 12 million suscribers. How much moneys is that?) or steam.
There are over a billion PC units in the world, and at any one moment it's almost certain more PCs are being used for gaming than all consoles combined.
Just because retail stores think consoles are more popular, or cheaper, doesn't mean they're right.
Can I applaud you for that? Seriously? That's probably one of the most legitimate points I've seen in this stupid thread. ...even mine sounded a bit "dick'ish"Mouldy Oldy said:
...side note so I contribute something
lets just get this out there
CONSOLE VS COMPUTER
AIMING IN FPS's
Mouse > Joystick
PRECISION JUMPING IN PLATFORMERS
Joystick/D-pad > Arrow Keys/WSAD
EASIER HOOK UP
console
LOWER PRICE
usually console
HIGHER ACCESS TO GAMES
computer, check out flash bases
HIGHER ACCESS TO GAME ENHANCEMENTS (ie expansions, DLC, mods, etc.)
computer
LESS LIKELY TO DIE
kinda a tie... you're likely to get red-ringed if you dick off just like you'll get a virus if you pirate
BETTER MULTIPLAYER SUPPORT
computer... no fees, no host migrations, dedicated servers, etc.
EASIER PICK-UP-AND-PLAY
console, you don't need to install/check specs/check HD space/other... just put in and play
SCORE
COMPUTER: 4
CONSOLE: 4
so the winner will be whoever can make a better video of theirs turning into a robot transformers style (my money is on the SEGA Genesis actually, with all those add-ons it pretty much is one already!)
AIMING IN FPS's
Mouse > Joystick
PRECISION JUMPING IN PLATFORMERS
Joystick/D-pad > Arrow Keys/WSAD
EASIER HOOK UP
console
LOWER PRICE
usually console
HIGHER ACCESS TO GAMES
computer, check out flash bases
HIGHER ACCESS TO GAME ENHANCEMENTS (ie expansions, DLC, mods, etc.)
computer
LESS LIKELY TO DIE
kinda a tie... you're likely to get red-ringed if you dick off just like you'll get a virus if you pirate
BETTER MULTIPLAYER SUPPORT
computer... no fees, no host migrations, dedicated servers, etc.
EASIER PICK-UP-AND-PLAY
console, you don't need to install/check specs/check HD space/other... just put in and play
SCORE
COMPUTER: 4
CONSOLE: 4
so the winner will be whoever can make a better video of theirs turning into a robot transformers style (my money is on the SEGA Genesis actually, with all those add-ons it pretty much is one already!)
See people?
all preference, just get what you like and stop calling the other an idiot because that just shows what I child you are and how insecure you are with your purchase!
off note- ever notice that no one flame wars about hand-helds? where's the iPhone vs DSi?
It may have something to with the fact that consoles are easier to control(from a developers point) so for years we had developers, managers and the odd halo fanboy tell us that our platform of choice is dying and/or sucks. So we did what comes naturally to people who shoot each other for fun: we did respond in kind. Sorry about that