Why are people afraid of the trades?

[antipirate]

"go to college" has pretty much been a mantra for parents and high school guidance councillors for years. Really it should be (and is starting to shift towards) "get some sort of post-secondary education" but trade school is still seen as being for people who can't get into college even though ones chances for a job are better in the trades than any degree except engineering.

My other advice for people looking at post secondary education is; do a co-op program it will help you make the connections and get the experience that will get you a job.

Myself I went to university in science (biochemistry to be exact) because I want to do research as a career and have since moved on to a MSc. in nutrition, but I still wish I had taken co-op.

Regards,
Jordan

 

[yeti585]

"go to college" has pretty much been a mantra for parents and high school guidance councillors for years.

This. So much this.
The only time I've had a teacher say anything other than "go to college" was when I asked my science teacher what my other options were. He gave me the look of "They are watching me and if I don't say 'go to college' they'll kill me" then he asked me what program I was in at the school (mechanic/automotive) and told me I could start a business based on that. How generic, go the "right" route or be a pioneer.

 

[Therumancer]

I have seen conversations crop up about people going to college for useless degrees only to get no jobs or how the job market is so bad. Sometimes when having conversations about the bad job market with people and how some college degrees are useless I mention that more people should go into a trade. Most people will stop turn slowly and look at me like I just committed murder as if I have said something so absurd they cannot believe I would mention it.

I get that trades are generally looked down on but I ask why? Fact is that is where all the work is and not only that it is where a lot of the money is. A person going through for a apprenticeship for a plumbing job will make more money and find work way easier than any engineering jobs or scientific studies job and it isn't even like plumbers have to work in shit they can just set up pipes if they so please and that is just plumbing I haven't even touched on electricians, construction workers, mechanics etc. I just have to know why is the idea of doing a apprenticeship and going for a trade such a absurd concept to so many people when logic dictates that they are the smartest thing to do and that if you want to be a success that is what you should do.

It's because those jobs tend to be held onto very tightly. If an existing plumber (for example) trains you to work for/with him that's one thing, but going to school and learning to do plumbing, in hopes of setting up your own business or find work is a touchy thing. See most areas already have professionals in most of the key areas, plumbing, electronics, etc.. many of which have operated for decades as a family business. You need something done, you call one of these guys. They don't look fondly upon competition, and you'll also notice that a lot of people tend to do business with one specific guy more or less exclusively as a matter of tradition, etc...

The thing is that you come into a neighborhood and set up shop, your probably intruding on someone's territory. They are going to blacklist you at the best, break your kneecaps at the worst. In many places there are "unions" of a sort set up by the professionals specifically to ensure things are split up fairly, this is also how they engage in collective bargaining since big businesses and such wind up having to contract the services of a plumber or whatever from the union and then play by the union's rules. You come in as an independant on union territory (which is pretty much everywhere), bad things happen.

Then there is a darker side to the whole thing of course, which is simply how organized crime gets tied to the unions. Having their fingers into things like Plumbers and Pipefitters is how the mob can get information for break ins, and know which areas to go into to rip out pipes and such, the latter being a big deal, and they even had a bit about that in "The Sopranos" where everything was leading up to them ripping a bunch of pipe out of building developments to re-sell. That's not quite reality in the way it went down, but it's inspired by real events.

Now granted, a lot of this depends on where you are, but it's very easy to go out and learn a trade and wind up with a skill you can't practice for all intents and purposes, much like it is to wind up with a degree nobody wants to hire you for. If none of the local plumbers in an area are taking on new hands, good luck getting the union to let you start a new business in someone's back yard because they all belong to the union to pretty much prevent that from happening.

Like anything, you need to do research, today's world sucks in that you really can't just say "I want to do this" and then make a career at it. You have to work around what is availible, and you have to understand that the people out there in competitive job markets have done things to lock out new guys and ensure the safety of their own positions (sometimes a glass ceiling, sometimes a rather solid one). What makes things worse is that since school can take years, you never know what is going to be out there when you finished, the lay of the land when you start can be far differant than when you finish.

If you want to learn a trade, look at things like how many people in the area are in that trade, how long they have been operating, and what unions if any operate in the area. If you've got a union, 4 plumbing companies, and they all say things like "Bob and Sons, established 1973" it's probably not a good area to try and set up shop in that profession and chances are the businesses aren't going to be hiring since you know... your not Bob or one of his sons.

 

[hentropy]

For the most obvious difference: those are harder, more hands-on jobs that if you pursue that path, you'll be doing it for the rest of your life. The theme of this generation is basically work smarter, not harder. I was taught that the trades were an option, but that you would work your ass off and barely see your kids or family, but you'll never go hungry. On the other hand, if you get a college degree in something, you can be making the same salary and do a small fraction of the work those people in trades do. Those jobs are just for dummies that can't into math very well... is what I got from my formative high school years.

Of course, no one told me that directly. But many of my uncles worked in trades and that's largely they way they were, even if they were always employed, they lived for the weekend and couldn't go an entire evening without at least a cold beer or two. Most modern young people just don't see that as a very desirable life. So I wouldn't say they're looked down upon, only that the perception is that those jobs are last resorts for those not mentally inclined. Like the armed forces, you could probably replace "trade" with "military" in everything in the OP and it would still hold up very well.

 

[TehCookie]

Trade jobs require manual labor, and that's like too much work.

 

[aba1]

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Man you must from some really rough place because I have never heard of anything like that happening at all. I know a good few people who run one man businesses and they have never had a problem. In fact a lot factories and large buildings that need maintenance will have electricians or plumbers on staff and many companies that need things shipped often have mechanics on staff to fix the trucks. I guess you must be from somewhere really rough but I have never heard of anything like what you are talking about it sounds like something out of a crime drama or a episode of soprano's.

 

[aba1]

For the most obvious difference: those are harder, more hands-on jobs that if you pursue that path, you'll be doing it for the rest of your life. The theme of this generation is basically work smarter, not harder. I was taught that the trades were an option, but that you would work your ass off and barely see your kids or family, but you'll never go hungry. On the other hand, if you get a college degree in something, you can be making the same salary and do a small fraction of the work those people in trades do. Those jobs are just for dummies that can't into math very well... is what I got from my formative high school years.

Of course, no one told me that directly. But many of my uncles worked in trades and that's largely they way they were, even if they were always employed, they lived for the weekend and couldn't go an entire evening without at least a cold beer or two. Most modern young people just don't see that as a very desirable life. So I wouldn't say they're looked down upon, only that the perception is that those jobs are last resorts for those not mentally inclined. Like the armed forces, you could probably replace "trade" with "military" in everything in the OP and it would still hold up very well.

Sounds like your uncle was just working for the sorta place that needs people working at all times. Most trades people work regular 9-5 monday to friday sorta jobs or a variation on that as far as I have seen. Plus trades get paid more than most careers these days since the demand is so high. I remember my cousin went through to be a electrician and if he wanted he could have taken a job working standard hours and retire in his late 40's he would be making so much money.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I have seen conversations crop up about people going to college for useless degrees only to get no jobs or how the job market is so bad. Sometimes when having conversations about the bad job market with people and how some college degrees are useless I mention that more people should go into a trade. Most people will stop turn slowly and look at me like I just committed murder as if I have said something so absurd they cannot believe I would mention it.

I get that trades are generally looked down on but I ask why? Fact is that is where all the work is and not only that it is where a lot of the money is. A person going through for a apprenticeship for a plumbing job will make more money and find work way easier than any engineering jobs or scientific studies job and it isn't even like plumbers have to work in shit they can just set up pipes if they so please and that is just plumbing I haven't even touched on electricians, construction workers, mechanics etc. I just have to know why is the idea of doing a apprenticeship and going for a trade such a absurd concept to so many people when logic dictates that they are the smartest thing to do and that if you want to be a success that is what you should do.

But then what happens when everyone's a plumber?

But in all seriousness;

If you want to be a success, being a Plumber isn't always the smartest thing.

Someone with a degree in engineering can apply that to a huge range of specialties with a huge number of options. (Even if the competition for opportunities is much higher these days.)

But a Plumbers a Plumber. A Valuable service; but the success potential is much lower than someone who builds Jet-Engines or Turbines.

On a whole I agree though; More people should join Trade Professions because its an essential component to a civilization. But the reality is a Plumber has far less success potential than an Engineer; it's just a fact.

There is some grey area but If you were asked to bet on the comparable success of an Engineer or a Plumber. Simple choice isn't it really.

Actually in the trades you will find a lot of incredibly educated people. People holding several degrees working as pipefitters, because that's where the money is, is actually the norm. I have a friend who went into pipefitting and he makes a lot more than I do, while only working four months out of the year. (Yes i'm kicking myself over that).

 

[thiosk]

The biggest lie that we as americans have told our children is that they are all special. Follow your dreams, we say, and our parents paid for the 4 year degree in music, art, english literature, and drama. Big surprise, not every drama school grad ends up in big budget motion pictures. The successful ones are happy, of course, but the unsuccessful ones have pigeonholed themselves, and all they have left is the feelings of entitlement.

Meanwhile, a two year degree in laser welding at a local college has a nearly 100% placement rate, with the jobs starting around 75-85 k per year. But how many of your parents would be dissapointed to learn you had decided to become a welder at age 18? Mine would have been. Its cultural, too-- every asian-american parent I've ever met would sooner disown their child then allow them to work a trade.

Many people are simply not suited for the 4 year liberal arts degree. And these people should do a trade, not major in duhhhh.

 

[Chemical Alia]

My dad is a contracter with his own small business, who started out as a carpenter working for another big contracter in our area for about 15 years. He's pretty exceptional at what he does, and his work put his boss' kids through college, despite barely making enough our family when I was growing up, much less doing the same for me and my sister. Needless to say, both of my parents encouraged us to go to college, something neither of them were able to do.

My dad's nearing retiring age, and it's only in the last few years that he's had a decent amount of financial success with his career. And that's mostly due to working for one particularly rich client for the past decade or so (getting lucky). In the economically depressed area of PA where we're from, there's not a lot of houses getting built or additions/rooms getting done. Plus, most of the people in my area who had blue collar jobs traditionally worked at factories such as Bethlehem Steel, and were all laid off over the past few decades.

Besides, typical "trades for women" aren't too common, I can only really think of hair stylists. Most parents don't push their daughters in that direction, in any case.

 

[Therumancer]

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Man you must from some really rough place because I have never heard of anything like that happening at all. I know a good few people who run one man businesses and they have never had a problem. In fact a lot factories and large buildings that need maintenance will have electricians or plumbers on staff and many companies that need things shipped often have mechanics on staff to fix the trucks. I guess you must be from somewhere really rough but I have never heard of anything like what you are talking about it sounds like something out of a crime drama or a episode of soprano's.

Well, the point I'd make is how friendly those people would be if you suddenly became their competition. People in business try and drive competitors out of business, and that's not always done legally or through fair competition.

A lot also depends on whether they have a union in the area where you are, as I said, not everyplace has a chapter. The purpose of a union being to take care of the members, and that can involve controlling who gets to be a part of the union. It's like that with just about anything. This is why when unions come into businesses and such to organized employees where there weren't any before, it's a big deal. At the same time being part of a union is not always a good thing for the people in it either, but going on about unions in general is another thing entirely.

The organized crime stuff is a side point, that's not "officially" a part of unions, it's just how things turn out. After all if you control the union you wind up getting your fingers into the business it represents. Typically you wind up with some wealthy, seedy sorts coming up with money to help the unions get organized, set up places to meet, finance rallies, and such, and of course those interests wind up taking a managerial position over a period of time by getting the people who bring them in as "contacts" into the top rungs and so on. Then they can control the business. They can threaten employers with strikes, and get their fingers into whatever the union happens to run. Perhaps most infamously the mob has been involved with the teamsters, as they wind up controlling shipping which they can use to skim shipments, smuggle, etc. Plumbers and Pipefitters is another union they can get involved in along with construction, and well... a lot of things.


Mob involvement doesn't mean everyone in a union is mobbed up, just the people at the top usually, and that affects policy, and means that occasionally if someone pushes a union, they might get pushed back a little harder than the law allows (so to speak).

It's not me being from a rough area, it's just how things work in "trades", you were wondering why they don't have the most shining reputation, and that's why. Your not the only one who has looked at it and figured "oh yeah, I can go into Plumbing and look at all the money I could make" for example, and then run into that reality. An area only needs so many plumbers, and the guys who are installed in an area generally don't want to share their business turf. Just like how if you ran a plumbing business, you wouldn't much care for it if some kid decided to try and set up shop accross the street, and undercut you to steal all your customers. People in trades tend to be unusually protective of their turfs, and especially if unions are involved the people that are "in" are very good at ensuring they don't just wind up being undercut and replaced.

Incidently a lot of this is also why a lot of services are highway robbery, by coordinating through unions and such, and preventing new people from coming in and undercutting, they can keep the prices high. This is why it can be so crazy expensive to have some guy come in and tighten a leaky faucet or whatever. If it's just business (as opposed to an actual friend) the guy can charge you a crazy price because he knows anyone else you ask (he knows everyone in the area, and they might be in the union together) is going to pretty much charge you the same thing.

There are exceptions of course, but well, there it is. As I said, going into a trade is not entirely a bad idea, just get the lay of the land first.

 

[octafish]

bloody sparks ^^...personally i was a live cable jointer...ye, fear my safety rule breaking dark arts

"the trades" are ok. you can make relatively mucho cash at a relatively young age tis true.

then again after ten years i had back problems that are almost crippling and early onset arthritis in my hands from the use of compression hand tools...at 26...so there was that...

after those ten years i was literally cursing the fact i didn't do the few modules at college that would have enabled me to further qualify as an engineer everyday as opposed to being "stuck on the tools".

i wouldn't plan anything long term around doing continuous physical labour whether you think it'll be sufficiently indoor-ish as opposed to out in all weathers or not.

you won't meet many old men.

although i'm sure when you start "the old guys" will seem old...but even they will be few and far between...and they will probably be in their 50s max

getting the message yet ?

only three things happen to tradesmen : you either get "off the tools" or you end up old, fucked and bitter or you end up dead.

if you have any brains you make plans for getting "off the tools" straight off the mark even if its at a later date.

Now that is the truth. Those fifty year olds won't just look old to a youngster they will be prematurely aged. Most trades are fucking hard work and they will ruin your body. I think sparkies have it better than most but there is still a high risk of injury (more from ladder falls than electrocution). My dad was a fitter and turner and his hands are ruined with arthritis. My brother is a chippy, his back is fucked, but now he is a qualified builder and site manager and he is never touching the tools again. My sister's partner is a brickie, but he has three guys on salary doing the grunt work. Everyone I know in the building industry over thirty has gotten off the tools, or switched to something easier on the body like bespoke cabinet making, joinery, or the like.

 

[xDarc]

Another thing that I wonder why hardly anyone thinks is being a small business owner. Stick to what you know, make a plan, read up business, reasearch, get a loan and take a chance.

That's what I'm gonna do. I recently bought a small starter home and plan on paying it off quickly and buying a 2nd one and renting it out for extra cash to throw at the business, or to act as collateral if need be.

I figure I have about 10-15 years of cubicle left before I get out and take my shot. Then I'll be running my coffee shop. There's a real appeal in doing light menial tasks like serving drinks and goodies and knowing that all the money is going into your pocket.

I don't care if only make 40-50k a year, I'd do it just to get out of all the enterprise level corporate bullshit that is needlessly complicated, makes no sense, and sucks the life right out of you.

 

[Fijiman]

My guess is that a lot of people are looking to get easy money without doing a whole lot of work. I personally think that going for a trade would be a great idea.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Honestly... it's a status thing. Culturally it is "better" to be a lawyer than a farmer. They both do a lot of work, but culture decides which profession is more desirable.

It's that simple.

 

[Vault101]

My guess is that a lot of people are looking to get easy money without doing a whole lot of work. I personally think that going for a trade would be a great idea.

I disagree..Id say its more about cultrual status

I think its unfair to class one as "harder work" than the other, the guy at the office putting extra hours to meet deadlines while stressing over extra workloads and other job related stuff....yeah its not physical labour but you can't say he isnt working

or Lawyers...Lawyers dont work physcially but they get paid alot being being a lawyer is ALOT of work

 

[In Search of Username]

I have seen conversations crop up about people going to college for useless degrees only to get no jobs or how the job market is so bad. Sometimes when having conversations about the bad job market with people and how some college degrees are useless I mention that more people should go into a trade. Most people will stop turn slowly and look at me like I just committed murder as if I have said something so absurd they cannot believe I would mention it.

I get that trades are generally looked down on but I ask why? Fact is that is where all the work is and not only that it is where a lot of the money is. A person going through for a apprenticeship for a plumbing job will make more money and find work way easier than any engineering jobs or scientific studies job and it isn't even like plumbers have to work in shit they can just set up pipes if they so please and that is just plumbing I haven't even touched on electricians, construction workers, mechanics etc. I just have to know why is the idea of doing a apprenticeship and going for a trade such a absurd concept to so many people when logic dictates that they are the smartest thing to do and that if you want to be a success that is what you should do.

Everyone thinks they are destined for great things now, or feels that they have to be in order to fit in. It's kind of childish.