Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[Mantonio]

No. Fuck that. You can't have a day celebrating women, while not having a day celebrating men and then pretend you're working for equality. That's making it less equal.

Nearly all high offices in government and corporations (in America, at least) are held by men. Men are getting 99% of new jobs during this 'recovery'.

Has it not occurred to you that maybe the reason men hold these jobs is because they're good at them?

No, stop, I'm not saying women aren't as competent. But what I AM saying is that pointing out that there are more men in a certain field proves nothing. All it means is more men apply for that field.

I am thoroughly against this idea that he HAVE to have equal amounts of men / women everywhere. No, we shouldn't. Gender should come into it, competence should!

 

[EvilPicnic]

^^poster above, bigots have children too, who will grow up to be bigots. I agree that we need to have some patience, but ignoring a problem won't help it go away, and could lend it credence as being acceptable.

Anyway.

I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.

But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.

Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.

Here we go again, accuse male gamers of being 'nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty', and making fun of even game devs of having been nerdy boys. I thought gaming was already nerd-culture, or did that change when I wasn't looking.

What, that's not fucking mysandrous to gang up like that on male gamers and male developers? Why do male gamers and male developers have to take all the heat for an entertainment factor you feel entitled to join in when they toiled and sweat to get the industry up and running without female guidance or support (unless you were married to a game developer, or supported the industry since its early days)? Again, I am going to reiterate an older point, don't fucking blame us, when there is enough room in the industry for you. Not as consumers (if you really feel the industry, is not up to your standards at this current point in times), but as creators, developers. We are living in a society where it's fucking easier to be female. As a male, I still feel the pressure of having balls. Oh, you like games, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you are not into sport, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you like anime, you little nerdy man-child.

This 'institutionalized misogny' as you call it, is not existent, or is it because not all games cater to you, hell, I don't play JRPGs because of the cutesy characters. Gaming is an escapism, and right now, it does not need to grow the fuck up.

Want it to evolve? Want it to be more accepting of you? Then suck it up, and join the damn industry, toil and sweat, just like those 'nerdy little man-childs' did once. There's enough room for all of us.

But don't you dare yap on about male gamers and developers being nerdy manliness-minus-one-mysognistic dicks.

I can yap on about whatever I like, thank you very much

But I think you missed my point: I'm saying that that's what gamers AREN'T. That's why I called it a 'stereotype', most gamers aren't nerdy pubescent boys and never were, but many people assume they are. It's a myth perpetuated by the media and the gaming industry, and does everyone involved a disservice.

A 2009 ESA survey showed that 75% of gamers are over 18, and 25% are over 50. But who is EA's 'You Mom Hates Dead Space 2' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

It also says that the ratio of male to female gamers is 3:2. So for every 10 gamers, 4 are female. But who is Gamestation's 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

How many female game developers are there, compared to male? Not many, and none that I can immediately name. [EDIT] I just looked it up. According to a 2005 IGDA study only 11.5% of people in the Game Development industry are female, and most of them are in HR. 95% of programmers are male [/EDIT]

Saying the gaming industry doesn't have a problem with sexism is like saying the FA doesn't have a problem with homosexuality.

And I think it's very possible for a game to be escapist, fun, and popular without having to regress your mind to that of a hormonal high-school boy. This is a very narrow demographic and is overly represented in mainstream gaming.

 

[The Funslinger]

Oh man, ive been running into this alot. Some people HATE when females actually do things like grown ups.


Theres this one video on youtube, about how this one guy looks like a girl, so when he talks some guys actually tell him he needs to be quiet and hes being a ***** for saying something. And he correctly points out how thats dumb, girls are allowed to talk, duh.

The comments are ASTOUNDING "HOW DARE YOU, YOU HATE ALL MEN! YOU WANT TO DESTROY MEN! ARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHH! ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
amazing.

Yes, but these are the people who will only get laid when Satan discovers ice-fishing. EDIT: clarifying, they blame women for it, instead of their own short comings.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

The just don't give a fuck, obviously. And why would they? It doesn't really affacet sales or change anything for the companies.

 

[Mantonio]

My own thoughts on this matter: The problem is that the subject matter at hand (In this case gender equality) is handled INCREDIBLY ham-handedly.

You want a female character? Okay fine. You want one with flaws and strengths and a believable personality, who at the end of the day is just as useful as your male characters? Sure, go ahead! You want to point this out at every single opportunity and harp on about it? No, go away. Equality (I don't really like the word 'feminism') is fine, but when you're up in our face about it twenty four seven we're just going to get annoyed.

Example: Those GRLLL GAMERS who continually say 'YES, I'M A GIRL AND I PLAY GAMES. DON'T HIT ON ME YOU SILLY BOYS'

Screw you. Shut the hell up. When I'm shopping I don't yell 'THAT'S RIGHT, I'M A MAN AND I CAN COOK' do I? Stop whoring out your equality, it helps no one, least of all you.

 

[BRex21]

Why do you think society laughs at men who are victims of domestic abuse? Because we rejoice with your suffering? No, dude. The reason men are not given as much care is because society thinks women are ~too weak to hurt a man~. And it's other MEN who will laugh and mock those who claim to be abused, 'cause you are no longer a REAL MAN. Domestic violence, as well as rape, are equated in our society as womanly things which equal weak things. Only the ~weak women~ get abused, and because men are not ~weak~ they can't be abused. Yeah, blame misogyny for that one.

Oh sure its not femenists fault, they just shout slogans like stop male violence against women. like these people claiming to be feminists http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/viol_dom.html And of course its misogyny to think only men have the genes to be violent, that definetly shows a strong bias against women. The fact of the matter is that articles like the one above go a long way in the war on men by classifying domestic violence as something that happens to women.

"The war on men" -- lolwut?

This is an example of femenists LITERALLY saying that men hitting women is a problem that we need to stop men from hitting women and only men from hitting women. I work on campus in a lab with 7 other people and i am the only one who has to go to mandatory seminars on how no means no, and how i have to controll my masculine urges to rape every woman i see. I am also the only person in the office to be openly criticised for disliking that i was groped while getting coffee. Since im a man i was supposed to like it, or be gay.
Yet if it was mandatory or even OPTIONAL for women to attend a course on how to avoid rape, in virtually any way it would be victim blaming. If i were to physically stop a woman from feeling my abdomen in public it would be assault
While i know not all feminists are anti-man, just participating in these programs ,or denying their existance as is often the case in this forum, labling men as the attacker and women victim even with overwealming evidence that this is becoming less and less the case, they are becoming anti-man. Sites that support programs like the one above, in the "public interest" while completely ignoring close to %50 of the population.

 

[EllEzDee]

How was it offensive saying it's cheaper than your girlfriend anyway? 99.9999% of Call of Testosterone players are guys, that's a pretty obvious fact. Didn't know girls like being called a noob fag every time they scored...and even if they did, why should they get their knickers in a twist over it?

I've only seen the Black Ops poster for it, but if it's used for all their games, i don't really see why it's sparked a shit storm. Gaming is predominantly a guy thing. It's not going to discourage girls, and i don't think it's offended any of them besides the shit sparkers in question (a shit sparker is someone who ignites a shit storm).

 

[kathleenb]

Some perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vr_vKsk_h8

The relevant part: Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

 

[kathleenb]

This is an example of femenists LITERALLY saying that men hitting women is a problem that we need to stop men from hitting women and only men from hitting women. I work on campus in a lab with 7 other people and i am the only one who has to go to mandatory seminars on how no means no, and how i have to controll my masculine urges to rape every woman i see. I am also the only person in the office to be openly criticised for disliking that i was groped while getting coffee. Since im a man i was supposed to like it, or be gay.

Okay, you have a perfect example of how the patriarchy hurts men, too. You find the concept that you can't control yourself around a woman to be offensive, yes? And yet this line of logic also tells women that since men are unable to control their dicks, it's our responsibility to control men's reactions to us. So how about instead of bitching, talk to whoever does these seminars. Talk to the anti rape group on campus (I can almost guarantee there is one) and find out how you can help them.

Yet if it was mandatory or even OPTIONAL for women to attend a course on how to avoid rape, in virtually any way it would be victim blaming.

Yes, yes it would be victim blaming. It is not my responsibility to control the reactions of others to me. The blame for rape rests solely with the rapist. Period.

If i were to physically stop a woman from feeling my abdomen in public it would be assault

It would only be assault if you used more force then necessary to remove her hand.

 

[Woodsey]

Because feminism is just the opposite end of the scale from what we have now. Instead of it being all about guys and whatnot, feminism means it gets to be all about women.

You might want to look up the definition of feminism.

Whilst some people who purport to be feminists want to cut off all mens balls and hang them on their walls, they're just sexists. Feminists, they are not.

 

[Dense_Electric]

No. Fuck that. You can't have a day celebrating women, while not having a day celebrating men and then pretend you're working for equality. That's making it less equal.

You want a day celebrating your masculinity? How about every single fucking day? Nearly all high offices in government and corporations (in America, at least) are held by men. Men are getting 99% of new jobs during this 'recovery'. A woman's chances of being raped or sexually abused in America are AT LEAST 1 in 6, probably more due to under reporting. The chances for a man getting the same? Over 1 in 24 - admittedly, this is probably also very low due to under reporting, but look at the difference. Women are regularly degraded in popular culture, particularly some aspects of music. Most domestic violence is against women. Want to know when a woman is most likely to be murdered? When she's pregnant.

Every. Single. Day. is a fucking celebration of manhood. Trying to reclaim one day for women's history, art, whatever does nothing to dent your fucking masculine privilege.

EDIT: tl;dr: Want a celebration of men and their manliness? Try Super Bowl Sunday.

Wow, it must suck to live with that much blind rage built up... So I guess learning about influential females outside of that one day doesn't count, hm? No shit most high offices are held by men, women only started joining their ranks recently. You have to give it some time to even itself out, which it will, but please don't keep bitching about it in the meantime.

Men are getting 99% of the new jobs in the recovery? You know, 99% of people who say "99% of X is Y" are making up statistics off the top of their head.

Women have a higher chance of being sexually assaulted? Yeah, and men have a higher chance of being murdered. Doesn't mean either is any more likely to happen to you or me individually, but if you're so concerned why don't you learn to defend yourself and do something about it instead of complaining on the internet?

Women are degraded in popular media? So are men. Ever seen those commercials implying that men are blubbering idiots? What about the ones pandering on about how real men have to have ridiculous muscles or whatever? Happens just as much to us as it does to you, don't act like you're the only victim of it.

Most domestic violence is against women? Okay, this really proves you're making shit up off the top of your head. Every (non-biased) study I've ever seen has actually shown that it's right about 50/50. Maybe some macho-headed douchebags don't report it because they're afraid everyone will think their penis is smaller or some retarded crap, but it happens about evenly.

Every single day is a celebration of manhood? When was the last time you saw a commercial about prostate cancer? Now when was the last time you saw a commercial about breast cancer? My point exactly. However, have you ever seen a commercial about breast cancer acknowledging that men can and do get it and die from it? Neither have I. What else do you want? Women don't have to register for selective service? (Though I didn't out of sheer principle, never heard or saw anything about it after that). Women are often favored in divorce courts? Women get lower life-insurance rates and lower car-insurance rates while only health-insurance rates are higher? Free drinks? Easier for you to find. You know how many of the aforementioned macho-headed douchebags would attack a man attacking a woman? Most of them. You know how many would attack a woman attacking a man? Not many. Apparently your physical strength is irrelevant, it's all what's in your pants.

Does discrimination against women happen? Absofuckinglutely. Does it happen against men? Again, the answer is absofuckinglutely, but apparently there are some people that refuse to acknowledge this. Stop playing victim, you're no worse off than I am.

EDIT: And for the record, I could give a damn about sports. If some guy trying to convince everyone how straight he is wants to watch a bunch of hulking men in extremely tight clothing climbing all over each other and sweating while groping for a tight piece of leather is into it, I'm not going to judge them for that, but it's not my thing.

 

[BRex21]

Oh diddums did someone not like hearing the truth?

The problem is that women have equality under the law now, people of different skin colours have equality under the law now, the cultural equality will come in time, they've just to wait for the old bigots to die off, so will they PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

I mean honestly there is only so much whining one can take before you just want to oppose someone out of pure spite.

I'm so sorry you find history so hard to deal with. Maybe the Cherokee should just shut up about the Trail of Tears - after all, it annoys your precious feelings to be reminded of what was done by your country. Hey, and union activists should just shut their traps about the Triangle Shirtwaist fire - who cares if a hundred mostly immigrant women were bolted inside a death trap to make sure they couldn't take a break? And we should just forget the whole 'ripping people out of their homelands and forcing them to work as another human being's PROPERTY' because your poor little feefees were hurt. Got it.

Your problem is you pick and choose. You said earlyer that most of the recovery jobs were given to men, yet you ignore that most of the people laid off were men. Not out of descrimination but because men more frequently choose jobs in the manufacturing sector than women.
You also speak of the horrors happening around the world where women are sold as slaves, and it is horrible, yet women dont have a monopoly on travesties, our history is quite horrible. besides i only ever see it pulled out as some sort of trump card in these arguments that get started when a woman starts whining that insult comedy offends her, womens day celebrations often follow the lead of radicals pointing to the male pivelage checklist. heck, consider what makes headlines.

 

[kathleenb]

A) NOT MY COUNTRY! DUH! I'm not an American.

B) The world's history can be summed up as one group of people pissing on another, every group has been pissed on and done the pissing at sometime or another. So grow the hell up and stop whining.

History is something that should be remembered, but it's just that HISTORY, stop acting like little kids whining about what happened a century ago. I mean honestly, GROW THE HELL UP.

a) My mistake, I assumed. Many apologies.

b) Not whining. Remembering history is half of not allowing it to be repeated. I remember what happened on the Trail of Tears because I know people who lost family there. As a country, America needs to remember these things because, well... we have a sorry history of forgetting what's been done in our name.

If you can tell me with a straight face that I'm the one in this conversation who has to grow up, I will actually point and laugh. Because appreciation of the past and it's impact on the present (and the future) is part of being a grown ass human being. Which you are not acting like.

 

[kathleenb]

Your problem is you pick and choose. You said earlyer that most of the recovery jobs were given to men, yet you ignore that most of the people laid off were men. Not out of descrimination but because men more frequently choose jobs in the manufacturing sector than women.
You also speak of the horrors happening around the world where women are sold as slaves, and it is horrible, yet women dont have a monopoly on travesties, our history is quite horrible. besides i only ever see it pulled out as some sort of trump card in these arguments that get started when a woman starts whining that insult comedy offends her, womens day celebrations often follow the lead of radicals pointing to the male pivelage checklist. heck, consider what makes headlines.

I don't have exact figures on layoffs, but the impression I've gotten is that they were pretty evenly split (because of retail job loss - most retail jobs are held by women). And I am not talking about modern slavery, horrible as it it, I'm speaking of historical slavery in America. Which was systemic oppression of entire cultures and religions based on skin color.

Have you taken a look at the male privilege checklist? Can you read it and not say that (assuming you're a guy in America) none of these things have ever applied to you, ever in your life?

 

[kathleenb]

You keep pointing out how the popular culture insults men, too. And it does. What are you doing about it? Are you writing to companies to protest their depictions of men in their commercials (I do this when I see negative portrayals of women)? Are you doing anything to combat the culture that tells men they have no control over their dicks and that women bear the responsibility for preventing rape? No? Hmmmm...

 

[Mantonio]

You keep pointing out how the popular culture insults men, too. And it does. What are you doing about it? Are you writing to companies to protest their depictions of men in their commercials (I do this when I see negative portrayals of women)? Are you doing anything to combat the culture that tells men they have no control over their dicks and that women bear the responsibility for preventing rape? No? Hmmmm...

Why do you assume they're not? Where has he said he isn't?

 

[Riff Moonraker]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

Hey, we guys catch it too. Look at almost every commercial that comes on tv. We are portrayed as stupid, aimless beings that would be lost if it wasnt for the woman putting us on the right path. That gets old, after awhile, too.

I know that doesnt answer your question, I'm just saying we get it sometimes too.

 

[EvilPicnic]

On topic its odd to see how much self-entitlement and borderline misogyny just the thought of females brings out on these usually very liberal forums.

Quite.

 

[veloper]

It's simply not our fight.
Sometimes I'm in the mood for games like Duke Nukem.

True feminists would be insulted by men doing their fighting for them anyway.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Furthermore, I understand discrimination all too bloody well, seeing as I am autistic. No I'm not just making it up for brownie points. I really truly am. I cannot keep work probably because employers here can feel the "offness" of me from "normal" people and they want rid of me.
I mean really, THIS is what bothers you? Of all the things to launch into a bunch of hateful bickering arguments about? This kind of bullshit? Really?!

Well I could argue a feminist platform from the fact that I have suffered domestic abuse for most of my life up which has resulted in Post traumatic stress syndrome and Anxiety disorder. I won't though becuase of what people might say about that which will just exacerbate my problems. I really don't want to be believe all men are assholes nor do I think it's true.

Then why mention it like that? You want to slide it under the guise of passing conversation so you still get the points but don't have to face up to the actions?

Way to go. Nice job.

Of what I know of you, your a troll so I won't be answering to you any more than this. I was trying to explain to that guy that there are ways I could make an argument more serious but I don't want to mostly becuase of trolls like you who actually care about 'points' /pat.