Why are people so quick to defend drinking? (rape thread offshoot)

[CrashTest]

Okay, I didn't want to jump into any of the (three?) current drunken rape threads, but this issue seemed like it deserved more attention.

Why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse? A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners. Given the context, this is assumed to be a person who cares a lot about who their sexual partners are, and are willing to define it as rape if they drunkenly consent to sex with someone they wouldn't otherwise.

Putting aside the rape issue, why is alcohol getting such a free ride? It is a drug, and a pretty damned nasty one at that. I understand people like it. Hell, I like it. But I also know that it is dangerous, and bad for me. I do stupid things when drunk, I know that before I drink it.

I'm very libertarian when it comes to drugs. I have no issue with people being allowed to drink. But why are people so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice? If you go out and get drunk to the extent that you can't make good decisions, then you have abused a mind altering drug to quite a severe degree. Why are so many people willing to give such behaviour a free pass? Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

To put it simply. If you take enough of a recreational drug that it would make you agree to have sex with someone you didn't want to (regardless of whether it actually happens), shouldn't that be a bad thing? Something we should discourage, rather than rush to avoid such people feeling like they did anything wrong?

Disclaimer: Again, I drink, I like drinking, and I judge no one for getting drunk. Nor do I think rape victims should feel in any way like they are at fault. This is a question about the degree to which alcohol abuse is defended, that is easily contextualised by referencing the recent rape threads.

 

[Cousin_IT]

It's only bad when they're not having sex with me

 

[Pimppeter2]

Because, the amount of alcohol one can drink while making a "informed decision" is very much so on a case to case basis. And I don't think I should be considered a "rapist" because I hooked up with a girl that happened to be drunk at a party where I was also drunk.

If my fiancee came home and told me that in a drunken state she cheated on me, I would break things off with her. Alcohol is a choice. Your actions after where a cause of your choice to drink alcohol. If you were worried about the guy you were with, or are worried about being taken advantage of, learn to say no to alcohol. Put down your 5th martini of the night and get some fresh air.

Some girls/guys act sluttier when they drink, some lower their standard. Its an informed decision. I have a friend who knows that alcohol makes her "loose", and when she drinks and ends up hooking up at parties, she knows its her fault.

I think what people (like me) are worried about are how much alcohol before it becomes rape?

I know that personally I could make an informed and valid decision after drinking 20+ beers. So can many of my friends. So can some (fewer) girls that I know will do the same?

My biggest problem would be that any girl that ends up hooking up with a dis-favorable guy while intoxicated can automatically claim she was raped. That's just a bad idea. Someone shouldn't go to jail because the girl "regretted" sleeping with them.

 

[TheIronRuler]

I can't give an informed opinion here because I am drunk never drank alcohol in a social occasion while not being surrounded by my family.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

Alright...

1. Drugs are considered illegal (for the most part), while alchohol is not. So when someone uses drugs, not only do they make an ass of themselves they are also breaking the law. With alcohol it's easy to say "well it is their choice" but with drugs you're more likely thinking "well they're breaking the law".

2. As much as alcohol and ciggarettes are bashed by the government, they will never be outright banned because society as we know it would collaspe if they were.

3. People who agree to have sex while drunk should not be considered rape victims (I really feel like I should carry around a pre-recording of that). All it does is give women a way to blame men for their mistakes, and devalues legitimate rape cases by making rape look like something women call just for the fun of it.

4. As someone said on one of the other threads (I'm paraphrasing): "A guy and a girl, both drunk, have sex. One is a rapist, and the other is a victim. Yeah... that seems fair..."

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Because at the same time you are to answer for your actions while you are intoxicated, you can't just cherry pick when you have to be responsible for your actions.

Also you don't become another person when you are drunk, you inhibitions are just removed to a certain degree, so in other words, your true self just comes to the surface when you are drunk.

 

[boandpop]

Because alcohol is a personal choice; you chose to waste your money on it, you pay the consequences.

 

[Phasmal]

Because you're surrounded on this site by neckbeards who wouldnt be able to convince a woman to have sex with them unless she was heavily intoxicated?

I lol'd.

But, srsly, people defend drinking because they like drinking.
I dont really drink at all, and because I'm 21, I get treated like a giant buzzkill (because I should be off my face all the time). I always have to provide a reason for NOT drinking. So I have to go around saying `Sorry, I dont drink, my parents are alcoholics.`

(Also, note all the people blaming the raping on women drinking. Let me tell you, women drinking in a room with no rapists will not get raped. Because of the lack of rapists. Society is all like `Dont get raped` to women instead of `Dont rape` to men).

 

[Vern5]

Do you blame the knife when a mugger stabs you?

Alcohol is only as dangerous as the person who is drinking it. Alcohol has never forced me to drink it. Alcohol has never convinced me to have just one more shot. Alcohol has never talked me into stopping by a 7-11 at 4 in the morning to grab some condoms on the way back to the apartment.

Alcohol is a passive catalyst. It allows us to shed inhibitions as well as rational thought. But alcohol cannot act on a person of its own volition, mostly because it has none. A person must make the choice, however misinformed, to drink. If they have willpower, they will not get drunk. If they lack that willpower, bad things will happen.

A person chooses to drink.

a slave obeys /joke.

 

[Batou667]

Okay, I didn't want to jump into any of the (three?) current drunken rape threads, but this issue seemed like it deserved more attention.

This. Thread. Again....?

The perceived "defence" of alcohol comes from the fact that people were pointing out that alcohol isn't some kind of reality-changing narcotic that completely strips you of your ability to make sensible decisions the minute you take a sniff of the stuff. People in those aforementioned threads were tediously bleating on about how "you can never give consent under the influence, as your thought processes are radically altered" which is grade-A bullshit.

I think that if the discussion had taken place amongst individuals who had a) actually been drunk before and b) for that matter, had sex before, we would have had a very different overall concensus. As it was, those threads were mostly full of naive adolescent moralising about the evils of drink and "rape is bad, mmmkay?".

Here's my take on it: alcohol is for adults who are (supposedly) aware of their own limits. Booze is a social lubricant, and in moderation (or even a little bit over-moderate) it can improve a night out. It also helps people lose their inhibitions, a fact which since time immemorial has been aiding shy people, both men and women, to have sex more frequently than they might otherwise. People are still, however, completely responsible for their actions when drunk. This is acknowledged in law (no, you don't get a reduced sentence for murder because you'd been drinking). Crucially, this works both ways: You can't claim to be an unwitting victim for the choices you make while drunk. If I get wasted, go on eBay and bid on a Picasso, then bad luck, sucker! I need to honour that decision. You can't use alcohol as an excuse to absolve yourself of your actions' consequences.

What I'm absolutely NOT saying here is that date-rape of a comatose, unconscious woman is in any way excusable. That's rape, plain and simple, regardless of whether she was rendered unconscious by drink, drugs, or a baseball bat.

What I AM saying is that alcohol isn't the mind-bending hallucinogen some of our less world-wise posters would have you believe it is, and that you ARE responsible for things you do while drunk - even things you later regret. This doesn't make a criminal less guilty if a crime is commited on you while drunk, but conversely you being drunk doesn't magically criminalise everyone around you if YOU consent to something you later regret - be that ordering two dozen Big Macs, skinny-dipping in the mayor's duck pond, or having sex with somebody you don't fancy.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

I've gotten a hard time from my parents for drinking in college. I would down 14 beers in one night, help empty a keg, etc you know the college shit.

I don't understand whats wrong with it. Its been 2 years later and I drink maybe once every couple a months and even thats gone down to maybe 3 or 4 beers. The problem that I have been told is that when I do drink, I drink to get drunk and thats apparently wrong.

 

[CrashTest]

This. Thread. Again....?

The perceived "defence" of alcohol comes from the fact that people were pointing out that alcohol isn't some kind of reality-changing narcotic that completely strips you of your ability to make sensible decisions the minute you take a sniff of the stuff. People in those aforementioned threads were tediously bleating on about how "you can never give consent under the influence, as your thought processes are radically altered" which is grade-A bullshit.

I think that if the discussion had taken place amongst individuals who had a) actually been drunk before and b) for that matter, had sex before, we would have had a very different overall concensus. As it was, those threads were mostly full of naive adolescent moralising about the evils of drink and "rape is bad, mmmkay?".

Here's my take on it: alcohol is for adults who are (supposedly) aware of their own limits. Booze is a social lubricant, and in moderation (or even a little bit over-moderate) it can improve a night out. It also helps people lose their inhibitions, a fact which since time immemorial has been aiding shy people, both men and women, to have sex more frequently than they might otherwise. People are still, however, completely responsible for their actions when drunk. This is acknowledged in law (no, you don't get a reduced sentence for murder because you'd been drinking). Crucially, this works both ways: You can't claim to be an unwitting victim for the choices you make while drunk. If I get wasted, go on eBay and bid on a Picasso, then bad luck, sucker! I need to honour that decision. You can't use alcohol as an excuse to absolve yourself of your actions' consequences.

What I'm absolutely NOT saying here is that date-rape of a comatose, unconscious woman is in any way excusable. That's rape, plain and simple, regardless of whether she was rendered unconscious by drink, drugs, or a baseball bat.

What I AM saying is that alcohol isn't the mind-bending hallucinogen some of our less world-wise posters would have you believe it is, and that you ARE responsible for things you do while drunk - even things you later regret. This doesn't make a criminal less guilty if a crime is commited on you while drunk, but conversely you being drunk doesn't magically criminalise everyone around you if YOU consent to something you later regret - be that ordering two dozen Big Macs, skinny-dipping in the mayor's duck pond, or having sex with somebody you don't fancy.

I really don't think this is the same thread... I referred to the rape ones because they were the motivation behind it. The level of passion with which people were defending a girl(usually)'s right to go out and get wasted seemed odd to me.

I'm not sure I made myself clear in my original post. A lot of people seem to have interpreted me as attacking alcohol (which I was), and also suggesting that therefore I was arguing that people who had drunk it weren't responsible for their actions (which I wasn't).

My point is that alcohol, whilst not a "mind-bending hallucinogen" is a pretty damn horrible drug. Imagine if there was a pill you could take, or smoke, that made you violent, lose memory, vomit, collapse, lose the ability to see or speak clearly, unable to think coherently, gave you liver disease, made you put on weight...

Again, I like alcohol. I mean, I like it a lot. But I don't understand why anyone could get on a moral high horse, and encourage the rights of (particularly young) people to go out and start taking a really damaging drug. I choose to damage my body/mind/social standing every time I go out and have a good time on alcohol. Whilst I would never stop anyone else doing the same, I don't see why people are so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice.

 

[Batou667]

I really don't think this is the same thread... I referred to the rape ones because they were the motivation behind it. The level of passion with which people were defending a girl(usually)'s right to go out and get wasted seemed odd to me.

I'm not sure I made myself clear in my original post. A lot of people seem to have interpreted me as attacking alcohol (which I was), and also suggesting that therefore I was arguing that people who had drunk it weren't responsible for their actions (which I wasn't).

Oh.

I see.

OK then.

Well, if your question is "why do people defend getting drunk", I suppose it's for exactly the same reason that you brought up: it's enjoyable. In moderation it's a great social lubricant, and hell, some of the stuff even tastes pretty good.

What's the alternative, condemn people who choose to get drunk?

 

[isometry]

Sadly, I think a lot of it has to do with advertising. People think of alcohol as sexy/fun/cool because that's what TV commercials tell them. Likewise, Cigarettes are deadly/cancer/bad because that's what the TV tells them.

I'm libertarian about drugs, I don't want prohibitions or restrictions on alcohol, but I think it's bizarre that tobacco is banned from TV advertising while alcohol advertisements spend millions and get treated as entertainment (e.g. superbowl commercials).

Before anyone critcizes me for focusing on TV, I realize a lot of us don't watch it (maybe the majority of us). But these advertisements still trickle down through to us, whether in web ads, or through other people who still do watch TV.

 

[CrashTest]

I see.

OK then.

Well, if your question is "why do people defend getting drunk", I suppose it's for exactly the same reason that you brought up: it's enjoyable. In moderation it's a great social lubricant, and hell, some of the stuff even tastes pretty good.

What's the alternative, condemn people who choose to get drunk?

Of course not, its not a judgement issue. There's nothing morally wrong with alcohol, its just quite dangerous and we shouldn't be encouraging it as a society. isometry makes a good point about television.

Take the rape poster with the girl on the floor that people got worked up about. Ignoring the rape aspect, it features a young girl in what appears to be a state of being unable to walk, and the campaign explicitly suggested she was on her own. Surely, regardless of consequences this is a situation we should be trying to stop. The girl could have been mugged, choked on her own vomit, hit her head, walked into a road... The poster was focusing on rape, but how can there be any moral outrage regarding a girl's right to put herself in that position?

Don't get me wrong, I think anyone (adult) should have the right to get drunk. So long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Same for other drugs, extreme sports, or any other dangerous activity. But I don't think there should be a societal encouragement of such behaviour, and there certainly shouldn't be a backlash when the dangers are pointed out.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

(Also, note all the people blaming the raping on women drinking. Let me tell you, women drinking in a room with no rapists will not get raped. Because of the lack of rapists. Society is all like `Dont get raped` to women instead of `Dont rape` to men).

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could do whatever they wanted without having to worry about what other people might do as a result. I would love to be able to leave my front door unlocked without having to worry about someone robbing me. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in, and nothing in the near future is going to change that.

Putting aside whether or not having sex while drunk should even be considered rape, what is wrong with advising women to not put themselves in a situation where they would agree to have sex with someone they wouldn't while sober? If there was a way to get every rapist to stop raping people I would be the first one to do it, but again that's not likely to change in the near future. I'm not saying we should ever stop trying to stop rapists (that would be stupid), but I never quite understand the argument, in this situation, of "I should be able to do whatever I want, and damn the consequences". Again, it would be nice if women could do that, but that's not the world we live in.

Put it this way: say you have a small child who keeps stealing cookies from the cookie jar. You've tried telling the kid off, but they keep doing it. So what do you do? You move the cookie jar to a higher shelf the kid cannot reach. You can make the same arguments (I should be able to put the cookie jar where I like, If the kid wasn't stealing the cookies there wouldn't be a problem), but isn't it better to do what you can do instead of focusing entirely on what to other person should be doing?

 

[AlouiciousKF]

If the honest response to "drunk sex=rape" for some of you people is honestly "Well, they shouldn't be in that situation in the first place!", then you are probably incredibly ignorant, or have some issues yourself.

Here's a hint: Why is it the woman's fault a man had sex with her while she was intoxicated? Why is the onus never on the man to look at himself and say "Oh, shit, she's drunk. Maybe I shouldn't do this?"

 

[Guffe]

Maybe because it's one of the few drugs not illegal??
I mean you can (at the right age) to consume as much as you want.
I personally have only been really drunk a few times in my life but I drink almost every weeknd a little bit, but I know how much I can take and keep it at a reasonable level.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't think a lot of it is defending drinking so much as defending guys who get charged with rape, when it really wasn't rape. Alcohol sucks and causes lots of really stupid decisions by pretty much everyone who consumes it in vast quantities. However some laws are still vague, subjective, and stupid.

 

[Scars Unseen]

My point is that alcohol, whilst not a "mind-bending hallucinogen" is a pretty damn horrible drug. Imagine if there was a pill you could take, or smoke, that made you violent, lose memory, vomit, collapse, lose the ability to see or speak clearly, unable to think coherently, gave you liver disease, made you put on weight...

True story: If you drink too much water in a short span of time, bad things will happen to you and you'll probably die.

Don't confuse use of a substance with abuse of the same. Alcohol does none of those things when used in moderation. Alcohol is not horrible any more than water is, but drowning yourself in either will fuck you up.

(Also, note all the people blaming the raping on women drinking. Let me tell you, women drinking in a room with no rapists will not get raped. Because of the lack of rapists. Society is all like `Dont get raped` to women instead of `Dont rape` to men).

Other things that society says:

Lock your doors(lest you get robbed)
Protect your identity(lest it get stolen)
Look both ways before crossing the street(lest you get hit by inattentive drivers)
Let someone taste your food and wine before you eat and drink(lest you get poisoned by assassins)
Watch out where the huskies go(and don't you eat that yellow snow)

You might notice a trend here. Advice is often given to people so that they may take measures to protect themselves from the actions of others. Should we tell women that they should just do whatever they want with no head for risk assessment? Sure they might be raped in a situation a more cautious and attentive person might not have, but at least they'll have the satisfaction of knowing it wasn't their fault.

Me, I would rather just be armed with knowledge to avoid being a victim in the first place. Oh yeah, that reminds me of something else society has said once or twice. "Forewarned is forearmed."