Why are people so quick to defend drinking? (rape thread offshoot)

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JesterRaiin

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CrashTest said:
But why are people so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice? If you go out and get drunk to the extent that you can't make good decisions, then you have abused a mind altering drug to quite a severe degree. Why are so many people willing to give such behaviour a free pass? Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?
- Because reality is horrible, unjust, imperfect and evil you think about it for a moment and we need something to escape it sometimes.
- There's a very big difference in behavior after using alcohol, cannabis AND cocaine. Seriously, it's like comparing bulldozer, pontoon and tank.
- Drinking alcohol and overusing it are different things too. I don't think that anybody wish drunken hooligans puking and screaming in his/her neighbourhood.

I guess that the best answer to things you speculate about is this old saying :
"Everything is for human, but first you must be the human".
 

HardkorSB

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CrashTest said:
Okay, I didn't want to jump into any of the (three?) current drunken rape threads, but this issue seemed like it deserved more attention.

Why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse? A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners. Given the context, this is assumed to be a person who cares a lot about who their sexual partners are, and are willing to define it as rape if they drunkenly consent to sex with someone they wouldn't otherwise.

Putting aside the rape issue, why is alcohol getting such a free ride? It is a drug, and a pretty damned nasty one at that. I understand people like it. Hell, I like it. But I also know that it is dangerous, and bad for me. I do stupid things when drunk, I know that before I drink it.

I'm very libertarian when it comes to drugs. I have no issue with people being allowed to drink. But why are people so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice? If you go out and get drunk to the extent that you can't make good decisions, then you have abused a mind altering drug to quite a severe degree. Why are so many people willing to give such behaviour a free pass? Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

To put it simply. If you take enough of a recreational drug that it would make you agree to have sex with someone you didn't want to (regardless of whether it actually happens), shouldn't that be a bad thing? Something we should discourage, rather than rush to avoid such people feeling like they did anything wrong?

Disclaimer: Again, I drink, I like drinking, and I judge no one for getting drunk. Nor do I think rape victims should feel in any way like they are at fault. This is a question about the degree to which alcohol abuse is defended, that is easily contextualised by referencing the recent rape threads.
I can understand the first time that someone gets drunk and doesn't really know what it's like to be drunk. However, if you get drunk regularly and at some point someone takes advantage of you, you were asking for it. If your willing to violate your brain to the point that it can't control your body properly, you're guilty of everything that happens afterwards.

The problem is that it's perfectly OK to get drunk regularly (at least in western society). What's more, when I tell people that I don't drink, they respond with "Why? What's wrong?" (as in, assuming that some terrible thing happened that made me put down alcohol) or even "You don't want to drink with me? You're disrespecting me?"
That's the main problem, really.
 

Riobux

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The way I see it is simply: If you have the inability to control yourself, then it's your fault. The individual, male or female, has to make the concious choice to drink too much, and has the ability to decide on his/her own bat how much they wish to consume. If he/she drinks too much and ends up having sex with a guy/girl then it's their own fault for drinking that much.

It's all about self-control, which is why I end up defending excessive drinking. Excessive drinking can be enjoyable and, sometimes, a psychological tool. However, the problems that arise from it usually aren't so much "I drunk a tiny bit and it made me do bad things", but usually "I got smashed and I'm horrified I had sex with someone, oh no pity me". It's hard to pity someone who puts themselves into that situation, I'm sorry.
 

MasochisticAvenger

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AlouiciousKF said:
If the honest response to "drunk sex=rape" for some of you people is honestly "Well, they shouldn't be in that situation in the first place!", then you are probably incredibly ignorant, or have some issues yourself.

Here's a hint: Why is it the woman's fault a man had sex with her while she was intoxicated? Why is the onus never on the man to look at himself and say "Oh, shit, she's drunk. Maybe I shouldn't do this?"
Why is it the man's fault a woman had sex with him while drunk and regretted it later? We hold people accountable for their actions in every other department even when they are drunk. If I gambled away all my money at a casino, I wouldn't be able to get it back on the basis I was drunk would I? I just do not understand why things should be different just because it is sex.
 

weker

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Alcohol doesn't effect you instantly like most illegal drugs do.
Alcohol doesn't get you accident like many other substances do, you can but it tends to be due to lifestyle rather then addictive chemicals.
Alcohol is built into our culture massively.
Alcohol does not damage your health quickly like a cigarette and other drugs do.
Alcohol does cause some people to arseholes, however this is only a small amount of people. I for one am a "loving"/jolly drunk, meaning apart from having a good laugh, I tend to start shouting things like group hug and so on.
Alcohol also helps people to relax massively and even become more confident, which can really help from a medicinal point of view.
 

Kermi

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weker said:
Alcohol doesn't effect you instantly like most illegal drugs do.
Alcohol doesn't get you accident like many other substances do, you can but it tends to be due to lifestyle rather then addictive chemicals.
Alcohol is built into our culture massively.
Alcohol does not damage your health quickly like a cigarette and other drugs do.
Alcohol does cause some people to arseholes, however this is only a small amount of people. I for one am a "loving"/jolly drunk, meaning apart from having a good laugh, I tend to start shouting things like group hug and so on.
Alcohol also helps people to relax massively and even become more confident, which can really help from a medicinal point of view.

I don't really have a vested interest in this thread, but this post intrigues me.

1. Why does the time between taking a dosage of alcohol and the effects matter at all when it comes to substance use/abuse? I was at a work lunch on Friday where I had two steins over the course of an hour and didn't notice I was intoxicated until I tried to stand up.

2. Are you trying to say alcohol doesn't get you *by* accident? Because alcohol certainly does get you into accidents - drunk drivers are responsible for a large number of deaths every year. Also, you can get intoxicated accidentally. As I addressed in point 1 - I was drunk but didn't notice any physical impairment until I tried to walk. If you don't carefully monitor your intake you can get into a lot of trouble - letting waiters refill your glass of wine so you lose track of how many standard drinks you've had, doing a few shots which don't kick in for awhile. The delayed effect of alcohol is part of why it's so dangerous.

3. So are cigarettes. Marijuana has become increasingly popular. Cocaine used to be an everyday thing for rich people in the 19th century (and you could argue it still is). People who frequent raves and nightclubs are probably familiar with the effects of ecstacy even if they don't partake themselves. Alcohol is really only different because it's allowed.

4. I guarantee you someone who drinks heavily every day will suffer health issues much sooner than someone who smokes a pack of smokes a day.

5. However small the group, alcohol is still shown to have a negative impact - much more so than other substances classed as narcotics. People under the influence of alcohol are more likely to cause harm to other people by acts of negliugence or aggression. People under the influence of marijuana are more likely to do some serious damage to your stash of potato chips then fall asleep.

6. You could apply this statement to just about any controlled substance. Using alcohol as a social lubricant is all well and good, but the fact that many people rely on it is rather sad. That you refer to this use of alcohol as 'medicinal' is rather disturbing, if I'm perfectly honest.
 

CrashTest

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Okay, again, maybe I'm not making myself clear. A lot of people responded by saying that alcohol in moderation was fine. Whilst this may well be true, I did say at the beginning that this was about using alcohol to the extent that one would sleep with someone they wouldn't otherwise. More excessively, though I can't find the poster anymore, to the extent of the girl being collapsed on a bathroom floor.

I honestly don't know if it would be possible for cocaine to be taken in moderation. I do know that as it is unregulated, there isn't any useful measure of what moderate cannabis use would be. The point being, you can't claim alcohol isn't that bad because people don't have to drink a lot of it. People don't, in theory, have to take a lot of any drug. Also, I don't know about the US, but go out on a Friday or Saturday night (or many other nights) in the UK and people clearly aren't taking it in moderation.

To reiterate. This is not about moderate use. Although I want to skirt around it to avoid dragging this into another rape topic, this is largely stemming from the poster of the girl on the floor. If she was a heroin user, no one would be leaping to say it wasn't the drug's fault (I suspect). Why is alcohol, when it is used to a degree that incapacitates people, given such an easy time?


In response to the people who said "because it's legal". Honestly, why is this important? I'm not even trying to be clever or dismissive. I would genuinely like you to explain why the fact that something is legal makes it okay in anything other than a legal sense.
 

Arakasi

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Alcohol is a socially accepted and commonly used drug.
People defend it because people like it, they like what they are used to.

Some say religion is the opiate of the people, I think alcohol can join that group.

I should note that I am very biased, I have never drunk alcohol.
 

Zantos

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It isn't being defended because people won't accept that it's bad for you. It's because people seem to think that the only way to drink is to get so plastered you can't think, whereas the majority of people can in fact go out and have a few then go home with no issues. I think once in the past year I've been irresponsibly drunk, yet people seem to assume that's what happens every single time you do anything with alcohol involved.
 

weker

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Kermi said:
1. Why does the time between taking a dosage of alcohol and the effects matter at all when it comes to substance use/abuse? I was at a work lunch on Friday where I had two steins over the course of an hour and didn't notice I was intoxicated until I tried to stand up.

A drug that you need to ingest large amounts of is less hazardous then one that works instantly, as it allows the user to notice the effects with much greater ease. For example E works almost instantly if my knowledge of it is anything to go by, which means it can be used on someone with ease such as in a drink. With alcohol you need to "NORMALLY" ingest large amounts, so it is unlikely to effect you without noticing.

"I was at a work...stand up" I and most other people from what I know would notice this, I think you just can't take as much as me or others. Some people can't some people can, it's more of a personal thing rather then the vast majority.


2. Are you trying to say alcohol doesn't get you *by* accident? Because alcohol certainly does get you into accidents - drunk drivers are responsible for a large number of deaths every year. Also, you can get intoxicated accidentally. As I addressed in point 1 - I was drunk but didn't notice any physical impairment until I tried to walk. If you don't carefully monitor your intake you can get into a lot of trouble - letting waiters refill your glass of wine so you lose track of how many standard drinks you've had, doing a few shots which don't kick in for awhile. The delayed effect of alcohol is part of why it's so dangerous.

There are laws in place to keep drinkers out of trouble, if you are caught drink driving you will be given a punishment fitting the crime. It can get you into accidents but ofc this is all on your head if you do so, as being drunk from my knowledge is not an excuse in a court of law.

Alcohol does have it's dangers, but so does everything in life. Compared to other drugs alcohol poses much less danger, and furthermore it's all down to moderation to avoid these effect, as there is a difference between alcohol and being drunk


3. So are cigarettes. Marijuana has become increasingly popular. Cocaine used to be an everyday thing for rich people in the 19th century (and you could argue it still is). People who frequent raves and nightclubs are probably familiar with the effects of ecstacy even if they don't partake themselves. Alcohol is really only different because it's allowed.

Were talking about multiple drugs, which I do not fully understand the full details of.
When talking about drugs we must not ignore the elephant in the room, where they come from. Alcohol has been built into our society creating itself as a respectable trade, while other drugs have fallen into illegal and underground areas, this means if we were to reintroduce them it would create an easy way to fund crime and such. It's not fair the other drugs are not given the same rules, but hey life isn't fair.

Marijuana is one such drug, as many places would be easily able to sell the substance here, or get it from hear. From my understanding Holland the pubs get theirs from areas where it would fund crime. Also Marijuana can effect your driving easily as for many it is a borderline instantiation effect, while for the most part with alcohol it's not


4. I guarantee you someone who drinks heavily every day will suffer health issues much sooner than someone who smokes a pack of smokes a day.
This is due to substance abuse, the person is not taking the substance in moderation.
I don't fully understand this due to the inclusion of cigarettes.


5. However small the group, alcohol is still shown to have a negative impact - much more so than other substances classed as narcotics. People under the influence of alcohol are more likely to cause harm to other people by acts of negliugence or aggression. People under the influence of marijuana are more likely to do some serious damage to your stash of potato chips then fall asleep.

Again marijuana is illegal for many different reasons. Drugs don't become illegal for one reason alone, it tends to be multiple factors and implications if they are illegal or legal.

Alcohol can make some people more violet, as I stated I tend to be a loving drunk, if anything I might crush someone as I am a big chap.

We also have to consider the idea of freedom of speech (I think that's the term as it's thrown around enough to not make sense) these are our bodies and we should be able to put what we want inside them


6. You could apply this statement to just about any controlled substance. Using alcohol as a social lubricant is all well and good, but the fact that many people rely on it is rather sad. That you refer to this use of alcohol as 'medicinal' is rather disturbing, if I'm perfectly honest.

Medicinal in the ways of reducing stress, calming people, helping them get to sleep, allowing them to relax and so on (all situation and environment dependent).
As for social lubricant, so what if you think it's sad, not everyone has confidence (I am not one of these people) some people get loads of help after being slightly tipsy, allowing them to know the experience of being confident so they can put their foot in the big old confidence door, and actually get some real confidence in their normal life. I have a fair few friends who gained their confidence and came out their shell after they got their hands on alcohol, and their now living a vastly more fulfilling life.

I know of them was terrified of going to parties and such, and after drinking with them, he learnt that they were all nice, and now he goes with us lot frequently.

Calling it sad because not everyone is good in social situation make me feel your a little bit ignorant I am reluctant to admit, and I hope this is not the case.
 

Nerdstar

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Boris Goodenough said:
Because at the same time you are to answer for your actions while you are intoxicated, you can't just cherry pick when you have to be responsible for your actions.

Also you don't become another person when you are drunk, you inhibitions are just removed to a certain degree, so in other words, your true self just comes to the surface when you are drunk.
theres a saying in latin for that, In vino veritas it to translates, ?in wine [there is the] truth".
 

Kermi

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weker said:
A drug that you need to ingest large amounts of is less hazardous then one that works instantly, as it allows the user to notice the effects with much greater ease. For example E works almost instantly if my knowledge of it is anything to go by, which means it can be used on someone with ease such as in a drink. With alcohol you need to "NORMALLY" ingest large amounts, so it is unlikely to effect you without noticing.

"I was at a work...stand up" I and most other people from what I know would notice this, I think you just can't take as much as me or others. Some people can't some people can, it's more of a personal thing rather then the vast majority.
Alcohol becomes more effective over time. MAny people have unwittingly drunk too much too quickly and suffered because of the delay. With a drug that takes effect faster, you are less likely to overdose - unless the dose is too large to begin with.

There are laws in place to keep drinkers out of trouble, if you are caught drink driving you will be given a punishment fitting the crime. It can get you into accidents but ofc this is all on your head if you do so, as being drunk from my knowledge is not an excuse in a court of law.

Alcohol does have it's dangers, but so does everything in life. Compared to other drugs alcohol poses much less danger, and furthermore it's all down to moderation to avoid these effect, as there is a difference between alcohol and being drunk
We agree on this, but the fact that there are laws and punishments for drink drivers etc. doesn't prevent tragic deaths happening every day.

Were talking about multiple drugs, which I do not fully understand the full details of.
When talking about drugs we must not ignore the elephant in the room, where they come from. Alcohol has been built into our society creating itself as a respectable trade, while other drugs have fallen into illegal and underground areas, this means if we were to reintroduce them it would create an easy way to fund crime and such. It's not fair the other drugs are not given the same rules, but hey life isn't fair.

Marijuana is one such drug, as many places would be easily able to sell the substance here, or get it from hear. From my understanding Holland the pubs get theirs from areas where it would fund crime. Also Marijuana can effect your driving easily as for many it is a borderline instantiation effect, while for the most part with alcohol it's not
Legalising narcotics would actually take money away from narcotics dealers and the criminals they work with because people would not have to subvert legal authorities to obtain then. The money would instead wind up with the government and one would hope, fund public services as as narcotics anonymous and the health care system. You'll note there are not all that many alcohol bootleggers anymore, and little reported bootlegging related crime since prohibition was lifted.

4. I guarantee you someone who drinks heavily every day will suffer health issues much sooner than someone who smokes a pack of smokes a day.
This is due to substance abuse, the person is not taking the substance in moderation.
I don't fully understand this due to the inclusion of cigarettes.

The claim was that cigarettes have more immediate effects on health. I am suggesting the immediate effects of alcohol are worse.

Again marijuana is illegal for many different reasons. Drugs don't become illegal for one reason alone, it tends to be multiple factors and implications if they are illegal or legal.

Alcohol can make some people more violet, as I stated I tend to be a loving drunk, if anything I might crush someone as I am a big chap.

We also have to consider the idea of freedom of speech (I think that's the term as it's thrown around enough to not make sense) these are our bodies and we should be able to put what we want inside them
It is more likely that marijuana was made illegal for political reasons than social/health reasons. I don't personally indulge but compared to alcohol it's relatively harmless.

Medicinal in the ways of reducing stress, calming people, helping them get to sleep, allowing them to relax and so on (all situation and environment dependent).
As for social lubricant, so what if you think it's sad, not everyone has confidence (I am not one of these people) some people get loads of help after being slightly tipsy, allowing them to know the experience of being confident so they can put their foot in the big old confidence door, and actually get some real confidence in their normal life. I have a fair few friends who gained their confidence and came out their shell after they got their hands on alcohol, and their now living a vastly more fulfilling life.

I know of them was terrified of going to parties and such, and after drinking with them, he learnt that they were all nice, and now he goes with us lot frequently.

Calling it sad because not everyone is good in social situation make me feel your a little bit ignorant I am reluctant to admit, and I hope this is not the case.
Medicating with alcohol only provides false confidence by lowering inhibitions - this is another thing that makes alcohol dangerous. Breaking the ice and relaxing is one thing, but fueling up on dutch courage is another entirely.
 

Pyramid Head

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Well alcohol has a very long history with the human race. Beer may have been our very first prepared drink, maybe even predating tea, and mead wasn't that far behind. The rich history and unique flavors make imbibing of it a real experience.

That said, i can see where you're coming from. People drinking to excess is an unbelievably common phenomenon, and it is strange that less hazardous vices are outlawed. I suppose you could field a "Blame the user, not the drug" argument as the alcohol didn't come to life and force it's way down peoples throats and bring up personal responsibility, but maybe alcohol should receive harsher criticism because people do tend to make too light a deal of it at times.
 

Something Amyss

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CrashTest said:
A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners.
If it looks like a strawman....

Come now, that's not the gist of these threads.

Besides, if you're "libertarian" about drugs, then you should be rushing to the defense of their right to do this.

The inherent problem with this sort of argument is that a lot of the argument comes down to the issue of "two wrongs make a right." And I'm sorry, but you seem to be coming down on the side that two wrongs do make a right. At least, that's what I get based on your attack on a caricature of the other side. The problem that people have isn't that drinking too much is right. However, once you're there, further compounding that someone did wrong by justifying someone else doing something wrong doesn't justify the second act.

People shouldn't drink too much. People also shouldn't screw people who can't make rational decisions, regardless of why they're there. That's what people by and large have been saying, and no, it's not a cart blanche defense of alcohol abuse.

I seriously wonder if all the folks using the "she shouldn't have got drunk" excuse understand how much it sounds like "she shouldn't have dressed like that" under the broader blanket of "hey! She was akin' for it!"

You know, my personal views on drugs and alcohol are pretty harsh, and while I don't go out of my way to enforce them on people, I do not look highly upon the consumption of any of them and even less so in excess. And I still don't think that someone who is intoxicated in any way validates sex with them in such a state.

Sorry if you don't take issue with that, but I can see only two reasons you would address the issue in such a false way: either you are one of the people supporting it, or you legitimately do not understand what people are saying and are ranting from a position of ignorance. I gave you enough credit to assume the former for the sake of argument, but in the end, it's hard to tell why someone comes up with such spurious claims. It does, however, generally boil down to malice or ignorance.

I do take great issue with the argument that two wrongs make a right (or more specifically, two wrongs make it okay). You know, the actual issue most people were discussing.
 

Something Amyss

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Pyramid Head said:
That said, i can see where you're coming from. People drinking to excess is an unbelievably common phenomenon, and it is strange that less hazardous vices are outlawed.
I'm curious as to how you feel about aspirin.
 

AndyFromMonday

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People like using drugs, alcohol is the only legal psychoactive drug on the market so people will defend it. Prohibition has been proven not to work but that won't stop the ultra conservatives from touting their bullshit.
 

Pyramid Head

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I'm curious as to how you feel about aspirin.
You mean the thing about it having a bleeding risk and having high potential for overdose?
Well, it has it's uses and it's dangers. I feel the uses outweigh that, but that people should be careful to only take the recommended dose and get regular checks with their doctor so that they are at minimal risk from the drug. It's medicine after all. It affects the bodies chemistry, you should always be careful because there are only slight differences between medicines and poisons.
...in fact sometimes there are no differences at all and some medicines are just controlled doses of poisons.
 

weker

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Kermi said:
Alcohol becomes more effective over time. Many people have unwittingly drunk too much too quickly and suffered because of the delay. With a drug that takes effect faster, you are less likely to overdose - unless the dose is too large to begin with.

This is due to stupidity and ignorance of the substance, when a person hasn't learn how to manage the drug. They have only themselves to blame as they have ofc drank to quickly. It's comparable to a massive coffee intake which can cause issues for some. Just because a person is not wise when they approach alcohol doesn't mean alcohol has anything to be blamed for.

The claim was that cigarettes have more immediate effects on health. I am suggesting the immediate effects of alcohol are worse.

Alcohol is no way near the same immediate damaging effect unless you are 1/1000 that suffer from alcohol being deadly to you or something along the lines. Cigarettes can very quickly get you addicted and caused harm due to the tar and such. Alcohol only tends to cause effects on health after abuse of it, from over indulgence in short or long term, but either way it's not a case of 2 drinks and it's suddenly worse then a cigarette.

It is more likely that marijuana was made illegal for political reasons than social/health reasons. I don't personally indulge but compared to alcohol it's relatively harmless.

I have to investigate it more really, as their are many conflicting test of marijuana.
I know one reason for it's drug classification is due to it's difficulty to be tested are recorded when used, and has a much faster effect on driving. Meaning compared to booze it would cause loads more intoxicated drivers to get away with crimes Scott free.


Medicating with alcohol only provides false confidence by lowering inhibitions - this is another thing that makes alcohol dangerous. Breaking the ice and relaxing is one thing, but fueling up on dutch courage is another entirely.

"provides false confidence by lowering inhibitions" This is complete subjective and is complete dependent on the person, and not across the board
I have not replied to all statements due to time, and urge to play Dota 2 :D
 

Craorach

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Alcohol is so widely accepted that it pretty much a universal "get out of trouble" card in many portions of society.

For years the line "just had a few to many, he'll be okay in the morning" was pretty much forgiveness for any misdemeanour or poor behaviour, in some cases it'd even get people off for actual crimes, with many people forgiving fights or assaults.

Look at how hard various authorities have found it just to convince the general public that drink driving is bad. Look at the massive ad campaigns and punishments they have to step up every year around this time just to put a dent in it.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody should be given any leeway what so ever no matter what their state of mind, or what substance they are affected by, if they willingly imbibed it. Drugs, alcohol or even sleep deprivation are not excuses unless they are forced upon you or caused by sickness.
People should be treated as if they are fully sober and aware of anything that is going on unless they are forced into a situation by others.. by forced, I mean physically forced or tricked, not the victim of so called peer pressure.