Why are The Witcher 2 fans so defensive?

Recommended Videos

Caligulove

New member
Sep 25, 2008
3,029
0
0
Been watching a walkthrough of it, since Im nowhere near having a PC able to run the game effectively. From what I've seen I definitely like the combat. Though definitely a lot of pre-battle prep. That is to say that the person doing the walkthrough does a lot of prep and a lot of alchemy/potions before doing anything with battles.

Compared what Ive seen to the original from '07 and I think the sequel improved in just about every way possible. Not to mention the environments! good god, I would love to see every RPG I play look like that. "Traditional" fantasy RPG stuff like the setting never really interests me, part of why I passed over Dragon Age, despite the BioWare pedigree- but Witcher 2 definitely seems like a game I could get into. Oh that and Im surprised Fox News isnt all over the game, yet. Especially considering there are actual whores to sleep with in very NSFW cutscenes
 

Gildan Bladeborn

New member
Aug 11, 2009
3,044
0
0
It isn't a question that the "tutorial" is (or was, the balance has been changed as of the latest patch and some of the mechanics of swordplay itself have been tweaked) difficult, or that the game doesn't do a particularly good job about making things obvious - if you're used to the beginning of a game holding your hand and telling you what to do and when to do it every step of the way, while placing you in situations where it's practically impossible to fail, it's going to feel like the developers have this personal vendetta against you. Unobtrusive little pop-ups that appear from time to time throughout the prologue and whenever you first do/encounter certain things like critical effects or your various signs do not "effective teachers" make.

The counter arguments that all the required information is already there and that the game simply leaves it up to you to experiment with the tools in your arsenal to discover what works are all well and good, but they don't render complaints about the "lack of a proper tutorial" invalid, as the game absolutely lacks a "proper tutorial". In point of fact it doesn't have a tutorial at all - it has a prologue, some tips that display, and a journal to peruse that reiterates the information covered in the manual.

What brings the animosity to the table isn't the claim that it's difficult (it can be, especially if you don't know what you are doing and have been conditioned by other games not to try things unless they tell you to specifically), but rather the assertion generally made by the people complaining about the difficulty that, by not having a tutorial in any real sense, the developers have done something wrong. Cries of "It's terrible game design!" or "In this day and age it's inexcusable not to have a tutorial or expect us to read things!" and of course "Here, go watch this Extra Credits video all about how it's terrible game design!" tend to irritate folks like me somewhat because while I understand that the more organic process of learning how to play a game by having it actively teach you is "the done thing" these days, I hail from an era where the thought of sitting down to something without reading the instructions and expecting success was bloody stupid.

The problem with tutorials is that if you're good at video games, they're invariably torture - the only ones I've ever felt were justified were the sort that delved into peripheral functions of extremely complicated interfaces, and by that I mean space simulators; I've never encountered any that were fun. They tend to break immersion, shovel in contrived circumstances, and serve as this barrier we have to slog through before games let us actually play them for reals. A brief pop-up or reminder should absolutely be enough for anyone familiar with the controls who has any experience at all with modern gaming to know everything they need to about the game, and there are difficulty settings for a reason.

I fired up the prologue for The Witcher 2, and to my unfettered delight I was not being put through a series of paces wherein my abilities would be trickled back into my possession while the game explained to me how to play it like I was particularly thick, I was actually asked to do stuff that was fun. And this is the bone of contention - it's okay to point out that the game doesn't go out of its way to teach you how to play it, because that's absolutely true. Suggestions that the lack of a hand-holding introduction to the mechanics make the game shit though are going to fall on deaf ears - it's not a failing of the game when you fail because you were expecting to be coddled at the start, it's simply an old-school design philosophy that a lot of people found refreshing.

We don't actually care if you like the game or not.

Hate it for all I give a crap, just hate it because you didn't find it enjoyable - if you haven't played the game, you can just shut the hell up: you don't get to have an opinion on whether or not the game was good, because you don't know if the game is good or not, you didn't PLAY it (you may freely suggest that it looks or sounds good/bad/interesting/uninteresting, and that would be valid and entirely appropriate and nobody would argue with your conclusions because they're subjective impressions that you have formed).

If, like Yahtzee, you played the game, didn't enjoy it, but then went on to make a comedy video wherein you just made shit up about it instead of pointing out the real flaws (of which there are a fair few, just sitting there ripe for mockery!) because you gave up midway through chapter 1 and therefore didn't have enough material to nitpick, it shouldn't be surprising when like a million people show up to point out you were doing more than simply exaggerating for comedic effect (i.e., lying).

And if you reflexively chimed in to defend Yahtzee's ridiculous claims that were based on falsehoods, having yourself not played the game in any way, you can especially shut the hell up, seriously.
[hr]
As for all the animosity generated by the official review here on the Escapist, people mostly took umbrage with the fact that Greg Tito spent the bulk of it complaining that the tutorial was hard, didn't mention all sorts of things that were major selling points, and then assigned what amounts to an "eh, it's okay I guess" score to what is quite clearly a labor of love and an excellent game (only the "lunatic fringe" were suggesting that he's just bad at games, his complaints were valid enough but the dispute goes back to whether the conscious decision to not hold players hands is evidence of bad design worth significantly reducing the 'score'). But what really riled up the fans is that Greg had earlier given Dragon Age II, a game that even people who enjoyed it (I include myself in that number) won't dispute was quite clearly deeply flawed and redolent with lazy design choices and re-used assets, he gave that game a perfect score, suggesting that Dragon Age II was what all other RPGs aspired to be.

The mind literally boggles - the disparity between "this is the second coming" for DA2, the obvious cash grab with a rushed out the door development cycle, and "buy it when it hits the bargain bins, maybe" for The Witcher 2 quite literally exceeds my ability to reasonably address while remaining civil, so I'll turn to the One Sentence Review section of Something Awful's Video Game Article which sums up each game quite concisely (and in one sentence - truth in advertising!):

One Sentence Reviews said:
Dragon Age II
An embodiment of lazy, aim-for-the-middle design with uneven writing and the most hilarious illusion of choice in an RPG to date; this made me double check to make sure this branch of BioWare won't come anywhere near Mass Effect 3 or Star Wars: The Old Republic. 4/10


The Witcher 2
If you were wondering where all the heart, creativity, painstaking detail, variety, and meaningful dialog that was supposed to be in Dragon Age 2 wandered off to, it's here, only without any of the useful UI or clearly communicated gameplay concepts. 9/10
 

Loonerinoes

New member
Apr 9, 2009
889
0
0
SuperChurl said:
It's Dragon Age 2's hilarious negative overreaction in reverse.

Remember: opinions must be polarized! There's no such thing as under-par game with moderate improvements, or an ambitious game with mild flaws. Everything is either an unprecedented disaster slapped together by uncaring media conglomerates and goddamn Satan; or the magnum opus of a generation, zenith of quality and integrity--so ingenious that to not appreciate it means there must be something wrong with you.
Spot...freaking...on!
 

infohippie

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,369
0
0
Because if those of us who liked it stay quiet, CD Projekt may only hear the criticism, and the next Witcher game will turn out like Dragon Age 2. And that would be a travesty.


Lizmichi said:
LordRoyal said:
It was lore from the novels. In the novels monsters are damaged properly with silver and humans with steel.
Yea but how many have read the books? The context is gone from the game if you haven't read the books. It wasn't like that in the first game so why add it now? What works with books might not work with a game.
Um... Huh? It absolutely was like that in the first game. You didn't get a silver sword at first, only a steel one, so the relatively weak monsters you fought were rather hard to kill. When you finally get a silver sword it makes fighting monsters so much easier! Plus it allows depth - in TW2 you lose your silver sword as part of a certain scene, and you have to be really careful about monsters until you can manage to replace it.
 

Lewieroo0

New member
Feb 2, 2009
340
0
0
Having to look at other sources to enjoy the game is NOT good game design, i have to say that these fans are acting like immature dickheads to those who don't see the game like they do :mad:

Tutorials are quite mandatory to let the player know what they're doing, otherwise how would anyone know what the hell to do to get use to the Basics?
 

Danceofmasks

New member
Jul 16, 2010
1,512
0
0
Worr Monger said:
Danceofmasks said:
I have videos on youtube showing off my style .. and frankly, if I have to use the pause menu I'd be too embarassed to upload them.
What do you use to record them? I tried Fraps, but the frame rate was just awful.
What are your computer's specs?
FRAPS requires some system resources (and less resources than other recording options, such as screen capturing), so it will impair performance somewhat.

Still the least intrusive and highest quality recording, though.
 

Selef

New member
Nov 13, 2009
65
0
0
i don't post often, but I'm posting now. I am honestly tired of hearing how the people defending the game have to be ignorant and blind when they are giving good, reasonable arguments to why they like it. And the people who are bashing it can get away with arguing "you just think its good because your a PC elitist and hate everything else." and other people bashing the game just agree. Now while I do enjoy my PC I also have a PS3 I enjoy, I just play more games on my PC for the convince of having them all in one place. I'm not saying that all the people against the games are giving weak arguments, some of them have valid points, the combat was infuriating for me at times, but the sense of accomplishment I got from getting past those parts was great. But i think that people who are saying what they don't like about the game should actually give good reasons as to why they don't like it.

EDIT: P.S. anyone else finding the term P.C. Elitist just a little offensive? I personally don't think I'm better than anyone based on what i choose to play games on, that would be a little sad.
 

mateushac

New member
Apr 4, 2010
343
0
0
Lewieroo0 said:
Having to look at other sources to enjoy the game is NOT good game design, i have to say that these fans are acting like immature dickheads to those who don't see the game like they do :mad:

Tutorials are quite mandatory to let the player know what they're doing, otherwise how would anyone know what the hell to do to get use to the Basics?
As stated by PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY already, you absolutely DO NOT need to check for any outside source to enjoy this game to a pretty good extent. I've never played the first game and i've beat this one on normal without ever looking into the tutorial journal entry.

Prologue, even out of order (stupid choice by the devs, I agree), teaches you everything you need to know about combat and, for me atleast, it being kind of hard actually helps you learn stuff that are not promptly shown in the pop-up tips.

Of course people may want the console, I mean, easy difficulty, and it's actually there for you. You can probably "mash "X" to victory" if you really want to (don't be ashamed to tune it down to easy if that's what you need to enjoy the game, many have done it and do not regret their choice). But honestly, this game's combat system actually has ONE virtue, THE LORE IS DEEPLY INTEGRATED TO IT: You may have to read books to get to exploit enemy weaknesses, you may have to learn how to set traps to protect yourself, you may have to get to know the fields you're walking into so as to prepare your potions right.
Geralt is not an UNBEATABLE hero, neither he is an omniscient being. He has to learn from each and every new foe, as any normal human (or mutant) would, and the player has to do so with him.

Actually, still about the combat system, I guess the main point of complaint to it comes prom the fact that it's more focused to the STORY itself than to the BATTLING ACTION. You get to immerse yourself into the character much more than to enjoy that huge gorefest we're used to.

To finish this poorly organized supposedly fanboyish mindstorming thread. I do recognize this game may annoy plenty of people, but maybe these "faults", as you see them, are just a way for the developer to show the player how their game should be played for maximum enjoyment and immersion (according to their opinion).
 

infohippie

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,369
0
0
Leo Alli said:
http://www.saviors-of-queens.com/index2.html
Hahahaha, that's freaking awesome! That is their response to the people complaining about the difficulty of The Witcher 2, right?
 

Kahunaburger

New member
May 6, 2011
4,141
0
0
mateushac said:
But honestly, this game's combat system actually has ONE virtue, THE LORE IS DEEPLY INTEGRATED TO IT: You may have to read books to get to exploit enemy weaknesses, you may have to learn how to set traps to protect yourself, you may have to get to know the fields you're walking into so as to prepare your potions right.
Geralt is not an UNBEATABLE hero, neither he is an omniscient being. He has to learn from each and every new foe, as any normal human (or mutant) would, and the player has to do so with him.

Actually, still about the combat system, I guess the main point of complaint to it comes prom the fact that it's more focused to the STORY itself than to the BATTLING ACTION. You get to immerse yourself into the character much more than to enjoy that huge gorefest we're used to.
Truth.

Witcher 2 is a poor hack-and-slash and an awesome RPG. The combat is clunky, but it's one of the best in terms of integrating combat into the story and world. It rewards tactics and planning, and is true to the source material. I've only read The Last Wish out of the series, but the combat in the game definitely feels like the combat in that book.
 

Waaghpowa

Needs more Dakka
Apr 13, 2010
3,073
0
0
Scrumpmonkey said:
I don't see the point in being mad at bad reveiws, infact im suprised that a game with so little in the way f user-freindlyness has been given such stellar reveiws. Honestly if a reveiwer can't look past the faults of the game that is his opinion and with a series as ball-breaking as The Witcher a completely valid one.

Im a fan of The Witcher series, have been even pre Enhanced Edition, but the games are an aquired taste. They lack any kind of hand-holding BUT if you are willing to look past their faults what they do manage is so very far above the offerings of other companies that its hard to imagine anyone not liking it. Then I rememebr dying 52 times and realise that this game is NOT for everyone.

BUT the other side of the coin is that some have simply not been giving the game a chance or dismissing it out of hand becuase it is not what they are used to. The game is in the vein of Metro 2033 (the stellar PC version) or STALKER. You have to put your pre-conceptions about how to play this type of game aside and realise what the game is trying to do. In Metro it makes you feel like an armedbut fleshy man at the piss-end of the apocalypse and you need to play accordingly, no running and gunning like a floating gun or a tank here. In The Witcher the world is harsh and if you are not careful you can die. Fast. You need to consider how you are going to play more carefully than in many other action RPGs.
Probably one of the best explanations thus far.

Note: Those of you claiming "PC elitism", those you call elitists DO NOT represent the rest of us. You also come off as having a smug attitude or self righteous, like you're somehow better for not being an "elitist".

Now can we all shut up about it please? The people complaining about complainers are just as bad, so shut the fuck up, you're not making it any better.
 

Sinclair Solutions

New member
Jul 22, 2010
1,611
0
0
trollpwner said:
Let's just back up a moment here.
mazzjammin22 said:
Blend said:
The Witcher 2 fans aren't defensive. FANS are defensive. It's bizarre to me how you are just noticing this with respect to this one game. I'd guess this is the first time you are on the opposite side of the argument.

Fans are always defensive of what they love with the level/insanity of the defensiveness inversely related to mainstream opinions.

Sorry I couldn't read all of A, probably a B person but was just responding to the general premise of the thread anyway.
Exactly. Go watch Yahtzee's "Mailbag Showdown" episode. Some people just want to defend their decisions to avoid the niggling doubts in their heads. That's just one reason, but people do crazy, stubborn things for a multitude of reasons.
I think there are a few generalisations here. Not all fans are bad. Being a fan of something doesn't inherently make you a dickhead. It's the obnoxious fans I can't stand. You know, this argument.
trollpwner said:
It's the whole obnoxious fan thread:

I liked this.

I am smarter than anyone else, therefore not only is this game the best ever made but anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Why can some of these people just not admit fault?
If you are a fan, great, but don't be a stubborn, ignorant, obnoxious dick about it. If you are a fan, your attitude should really be:

"I liked this game. However, not everyone is the same. Some people may not like this game and, in reality, it isn't really perfect. I can try and point out its aspects to people in a respectful manner in the hope that they may gain some of the positive experience I did."

Not

DERP DERP YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT!
Well, I just thought that since we were talking about particularly stubborn and defensive fans, I assumed we didn't need to specify that they were the zealous fans. Obviously it was a wrong assumption.
 

Waaghpowa

Needs more Dakka
Apr 13, 2010
3,073
0
0
Dexter111 said:
Aside from the fact that the dude in the video drives me bat shit crazy, I agree with the rest. Not every game should be simplified or have the difficulty tuned down because it will make everyone happier. It's their product, and they can design it how they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Clearly there are people who are ok with their design choices.
 

devotedsniper

New member
Dec 28, 2010
752
0
0
The ZP vid didn't really bother me he had some good points but then he says things such as you couldn't skip cutscenes when you can (come on it took all of 3 buttons for me to figure it out when it came to dying for the first time) which also makes me think he didn't really give it to much of a chance (my guess it's cause of the first). I realise the guys a critic so he's never gonna truly be happy with a game but some of the people on here did seem to take it rather seriously.

In my opinion i don't see where all the whining comes from, i think most of those complaints about the game are either because people haven't played through the first (although if you do abit of reading you can understand the previous game fairly easily), and/or there to used to modern games where they hold your hand the whole way through the game, where this one doesn't it will help you if you need it which means look it up in the journal but otherwise your on your own (you also get popups on the screen telling you how to do things but i guess those who need there hands held can't read those?).

In the end i managed to finish it before any of the patches (which aparently make the combat easier at the start) along with the troll DLC (which most people weren't able to download for some reason so it's now included in the patch), i never really had any issues, even with the combat once i got some of my skills up it was fairly easy, i can't complain, anyone else can i'll respect your opinion but i'm happy that TW2 took this approach of trial by fire.

P.S. to all those complaining the combats too hard i got a great tip for you.... turn the difficulty down, i know it's super hard to find in the menu but you can do it! *sarcasm*