why are there no WW1 games?

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MortisLegio

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The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
Macgyvercas said:
Probably because none of them could fully capture the epic awesomeness that is Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen
That's The Red Baron for those of you who don't know that already
Yes, I know I'm a bad American because I think the coolest guy in WWI was from the Central Powers, but come on, the man shot down 80 planes and has had three songs written about him by The Royal Guardsmen
The songs are "Snoopy VS the Red Baron" "The Return of the Red Baron" and "Snoopy's Christmas"
LOL very nice!

MortisLegio said:
in the words of yahtzee "it would be really fucking boring"
Couldn't be more boring than your statement repeating an already boring statement.
(pulls out history book)
dont tempt me boy...
Pulls out history books, articles, dissertations, notes, first hand sources, documentaries and over 10 years of studying...
I do..
fine... would you (in a game) sit for hours at a time stuck in water filled trenches, getting gang green, dying every time you go charging across the no mans land, choking on chlorine and mustard gas, seeing machines that you have little chance of winning against charge you, artillary shells bursting just above your head (killing you) knowing that no good come from this war only death and a second world war.

First hand sources... um unless you know alot of people who are 100+, that unlikely
and 10 years of studying? how old are you?
 

The Tommy

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MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
Macgyvercas said:
Probably because none of them could fully capture the epic awesomeness that is Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen
That's The Red Baron for those of you who don't know that already
Yes, I know I'm a bad American because I think the coolest guy in WWI was from the Central Powers, but come on, the man shot down 80 planes and has had three songs written about him by The Royal Guardsmen
The songs are "Snoopy VS the Red Baron" "The Return of the Red Baron" and "Snoopy's Christmas"
LOL very nice!

MortisLegio said:
in the words of yahtzee "it would be really fucking boring"
Couldn't be more boring than your statement repeating an already boring statement.
(pulls out history book)
dont tempt me boy...
Pulls out history books, articles, dissertations, notes, first hand sources, documentaries and over 10 years of studying...
I do..
fine... would you (in a game) sit for hours at a time stuck in water filled trenches, getting gang green, dying every time you go charging across the no mans land, choking on chlorine and mustard gas, seeing machines that you have little chance of winning against charge you, artillary shells bursting just above your head (killing you) knowing that no good come from this war only death and a second world war.

First hand sources... um unless you know alot of people who are 100+, that unlikely
and 10 years of studying? how old are you?
What a shattering observation. Sounds a bit like the other rot that's been posted here before. Is your book your high school history text with a paragraph or chapter on the War?

I'm old enough to know you're an arse for not considering that diaries and interviews with past vets and letters are primary sources. Plus you haven't cited any specific engagements nor offered any other information which hasn't been covered already by the "it was boring" crowd. There was a variety of combat both during periods of static war in the trenches and during offensives which ultimately in the last year led to open warfare. Try reading about the German Ludendorff Offensive or the British Army during the last 100 Days Offensive. Lots of open warfare and combat in villages and even canals.
Cambrai in 1917 offers some insight into how armored warfare could assist the infantry in making a breakthrough. Third Ypres saw the use of pillboxes.

I'm just scratching the surface but you should try reading the principles of French Captain Laffargue or the British Army's manual on Instructions for the Training of Platoons for Offensive Action 1917.
German Strosstruppen methods make for interesting reading as well.


Try reading some of my earlier posts and that of others interested or educated on the subject.
 

Zildjin81

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Lets see if we can get this thread to 1000 replies......

OT: because world war 2 was more exciting?
 

The Tommy

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Haxordude said:
Lets see if we can get this thread to 1000 replies......

OT: because world war 2 was more exciting?
Working on it. WWI developed and created everything we take for granted in modern weaponry and tactics. If you like rapid fire rifles and machine guns, tanks and aeroplanes, and fast paced infantry tactics, then WWI is where to start. It gives a break from the fascist skull basing formula.
 

The Tommy

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Major Tom said:
The Tommy said:
Tom Thought you might enjoy this lot. Not totally accurate regarding the E.III fighting against a Camel in 1917 but a work of art none the less. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01mG3RDdf28
That was hilarious! Totally unexpected, that. Beer has some of the best ads, I tell you.
Glad you enjoyed it mate!! The damn thing won an award at Cannes!
 

LewsTherin

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But you already can zerg rush in Starcraft, and that's all it will really be. With some mustard gas and early tanks thrown in.
 

The Tommy

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LewsTherin said:
But you already can zerg rush in Starcraft, and that's all it will really be. With some mustard gas and early tanks thrown in.
Maybe if you took no account of reality into it. Vastly more complex than you make it.

The reason why the trenches developed was the technology outpacing both logistics of supply and the tactics to counter their great power. Failures were due to pressures often times caused by the stress to assist burdened allies on other fronts despite lack of readiness and adjustments to methods NEVER tried before. The squad based combat stuff that's a staple for FPS games like BIA and COD and modern warfare in general began as early as 1915 with the French and British looking to break the stalemate.

Artillery preparations vastly improved from quick but ineffective hurricane barrages or week long bombardments which alerted a dug in enemy, to complex time tables that allowed a creeping barrage to cover an advance while passing over enemy positions to keep their heads down until the British soldiers were on top of them. I can keep going.
 

MortisLegio

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The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
Macgyvercas said:
Probably because none of them could fully capture the epic awesomeness that is Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen
That's The Red Baron for those of you who don't know that already
Yes, I know I'm a bad American because I think the coolest guy in WWI was from the Central Powers, but come on, the man shot down 80 planes and has had three songs written about him by The Royal Guardsmen
The songs are "Snoopy VS the Red Baron" "The Return of the Red Baron" and "Snoopy's Christmas"
LOL very nice!

MortisLegio said:
in the words of yahtzee "it would be really fucking boring"
Couldn't be more boring than your statement repeating an already boring statement.
(pulls out history book)
dont tempt me boy...
Pulls out history books, articles, dissertations, notes, first hand sources, documentaries and over 10 years of studying...
I do..
fine... would you (in a game) sit for hours at a time stuck in water filled trenches, getting gang green, dying every time you go charging across the no mans land, choking on chlorine and mustard gas, seeing machines that you have little chance of winning against charge you, artillary shells bursting just above your head (killing you) knowing that no good come from this war only death and a second world war.

First hand sources... um unless you know alot of people who are 100+, that unlikely
and 10 years of studying? how old are you?
What a shattering observation. Sounds a bit like the other rot that's been posted here before. Is your book your high school history text with a paragraph or chapter on the War?

I'm old enough to know you're an arse for not considering that diaries and interviews with past vets and letters are primary sources. Plus you haven't cited any specific engagements nor offered any other information which hasn't been covered already by the "it was boring" crowd.

Try reading some of my earlier posts and that of others interested or educated on the subject.
1 there is video of the war, I have seen it
2 letters are still considered second hand sources
3 I have read, seen, heard almost every thing about world war 1
4 its boring because trench warfare is boring, to make a good shooter it needs a good pacing not waiting forever to attack
5 the only good battle I can think of is the battle of belleau wood between the Germans and the US Marines (predominantly) where the french (I hate them) ran off and for 26 days the Germans and Americans fought until the Americans finally won after being gased and almost two thousand casualties.(also thats where the Marines got the title Devil Dogs)
 

The Tommy

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MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
MortisLegio said:
The Tommy said:
Macgyvercas said:
Probably because none of them could fully capture the epic awesomeness that is Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen
That's The Red Baron for those of you who don't know that already
Yes, I know I'm a bad American because I think the coolest guy in WWI was from the Central Powers, but come on, the man shot down 80 planes and has had three songs written about him by The Royal Guardsmen
The songs are "Snoopy VS the Red Baron" "The Return of the Red Baron" and "Snoopy's Christmas"
LOL very nice!

MortisLegio said:
in the words of yahtzee "it would be really fucking boring"
Couldn't be more boring than your statement repeating an already boring statement.
(pulls out history book)
dont tempt me boy...
Pulls out history books, articles, dissertations, notes, first hand sources, documentaries and over 10 years of studying...
I do..
fine... would you (in a game) sit for hours at a time stuck in water filled trenches, getting gang green, dying every time you go charging across the no mans land, choking on chlorine and mustard gas, seeing machines that you have little chance of winning against charge you, artillary shells bursting just above your head (killing you) knowing that no good come from this war only death and a second world war.

First hand sources... um unless you know alot of people who are 100+, that unlikely
and 10 years of studying? how old are you?
What a shattering observation. Sounds a bit like the other rot that's been posted here before. Is your book your high school history text with a paragraph or chapter on the War?

I'm old enough to know you're an arse for not considering that diaries and interviews with past vets and letters are primary sources. Plus you haven't cited any specific engagements nor offered any other information which hasn't been covered already by the "it was boring" crowd.

Try reading some of my earlier posts and that of others interested or educated on the subject.
1 there is video of the war, I have seen it
2 letters are still considered second hand sources
3 I have read, seen, heard almost every thing about world war 1
4 its boring because trench warfare is boring, to make a good shooter it needs a good pacing not waiting forever to attack
5 the only good battle I can think of is the battle of belleau wood between the Germans and the US Marines (predominantly) where the french (I hate them) ran off and for 26 days the Germans and Americans fought until the Americans finally won after being gased and almost two thousand casualties.(also thats where the Marines got the title Devil Dogs)
Well that's amazing but letters written of the time are considered a primary resource not secondary like a book written about it or a quote by a historian which can take it out of context.
Its impossible for you or anyone to know EVERYTHING about the war or close to it, since people and scholars are still learning about it to this day.
Name at least four other fronts in WWI besides Gallipoli and the Eastern Front.

One video.. Incredible... I bow to your unrivaled expertise.

A good shooter doesn't take into account that all wars have long periods of waiting.

Can you give any other account without the biased American machismo present from your previous observation?
The Americans fought as early May 1917 and had participated in a slow introduction to the rigors of modern combat under the eye of their French and British allies. The US would not have been ready to decisively effect the strategic military situation until 1919. But that doesn't mean that her only worthy action was at Belleau Wood and certainly not the only worthy action by the Allies.



The French had been bled to death by Four years of HEAVY fighting at the Frontiers, the Somme, Woeverve, Artois, Verdun 500,000 casualties) and the Chemin Des Dames where they suffered 40,000 casualties on the first day of the battle. Their country had been occupied and was not (like all countries involved) for a protracted war of this scale.

You fail to cite anything of value and you so you fail
 

The Tommy

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Major Tom said:
The Rockerfly said:
Because Hitler was comic book evil while ww1 didn't really have anyone like that
The propaganda at the time can portray the Germans as lazy [http://www.internationalposter.com/pimages/RUL10687.jpg], insane, baby-eating brutes [http://infolab.stanford.edu/~mmorten/propaganda/wwi/us--45/destroy-brute.jpg]. Don't think you can get more comic book than that, surely we can do just as well.

MortisLegio said:
1 there is video of the war, I have seen it
2 letters are still considered second hand sources
3 I have read, seen, heard almost every thing about world war 1
4 its boring because trench warfare is boring, to make a good shooter it needs a good pacing not waiting forever to attack
5 the only good battle I can think of is the battle of belleau wood between the Germans and the US Marines (predominantly) where the french (I hate them) ran off and for 26 days the Germans and Americans fought until the Americans finally won after being gased and almost two thousand casualties.(also thats where the Marines got the title Devil Dogs)
Have you done any research outside of the Western Front? Like on the Eastern Front, the Italian Front, the Balkan Front, Palastine? Because if you haven't, your claim at no.3 sounds very disingenuous, considering that there were little, if any trenches in the East.
He has to answer my question about naming other fronts still. But I guess he'll just wikipedia it or look it up on his video. Hopefully he'll just not poison the thread anymore with his arrogance and stupidity.
 

The Tommy

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Major Tom said:
Sorry about that. Your question went up while I was still writing, so I didn't see it.
No problem at all its quite fine. This bickering with high schoolers will amount to nothing really but I'm hoping to find people like you who have an interest in the War and more to the point; an opinion about a game on it or how it could be done.
 

WolfThomas

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Dec 21, 2007
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Here's how I think it could be done, a combination of scripted scenes, but mostly procedurally generated stuff.

The game would start with a pretty standard tutorial, learning how to use rifles, grenades etc. But emphasizing the rigid social structure at the time and the colonial jingoism at the start "tut, tut the war will be over by christmas and we won't have given the kraut a sufficient walloping". This of course would all change throughout the game. You'd probably be a reserve officer or something, fresh faced and straight out of school.

The first mission would be heavily scripted, you getting ready to go over the top for a charge. The atmosphere would be incredibly tense, from the music, the soldiers muttering and the sound of artillery fire. You'd feel scared of going over the top.

Then you'd leap over and run through no man's land while machine guns and artillery obliterate everyone around you horrifically, not a cinematic but rather if you bother to turn to the left you'll see a couple of men ripped to pieces by machine gun fire. Eventually a shell would land near you and you'd pass out.

You'd awake in hospital for a brief moment before it blacks out.

Now the bulk of the game would be about a single large area, your lines (+ no man's land and the germans) and perhaps the nearest village you billet at while on rest.

The game would a fps with rpg elements like STALKER, there'd be NPCs from officers who'd issue you orders, to supply clerks or medical officers who ask you favours (like bringing them so much of x) and just soldiers with great accents and funny senses of humour.

At your lines you'd be able to walk around reasonably safely, you'd have to be careful and crouch through sniper trouble spots, wade through the muck with rats and every now and then you'd hear the crump of artillery and have to seek cover or hit the bottom of the trench.

No man's land would be ever changing and initially very frightening, but eventually you'd begin to learn safe spots, good sniper vantages and the quickest routes as you went out on night patrols. It would change each sometimes not by much, at other times huge differences. Every now and then a flare would go up illuminating the whole area before fading leaving it darker then it was before until your eye readjust.

Missions would consist of repelling German attacks (sometimes fighting in the trenches), assisting artillery and mortars, sniping the German lines, scouting no man's land, ambushing patrols in no man's land, retrieving wounded and dead, and off course attacking the enemie's line.

You wouldn't go over the top often in an all out assault, but you'd dread every time, sometimes you'd be successful and hold a trench, until your relieved or ordered to pull out, but inevitably you'd lose it, and you may even get badly wounded/die. When you got killed in game, you'd later wake up in hospital being told you'd been bravely rescued and dragged back. If this happened too many times the game would end with you being sent home crippled or actually dieing and you'd have to reload a save or checkpoint.

After every "big show" npcs you'd gotten to know might be crippled/dead, this would be random and depend on what happened in the fight. You might hate certain officers and almost be happy when they bought the farm or change your opinion about them when they do something amazingly heroic. A NPC you like might make you think of doing something risky in the hope of saving them. A wounded NPC might right you letters from hospital or from home if they are crippled.

As the war progressed the nature of combat would adapt, you'd eventually have plane and tank support.

Weapon wise you'd be able to carry three type of weapon:

Primary:
Simple bolt action rifle (both English and German) and would have the advantage of a bayonet
Scoped bolt action rifle
Lewis Gun (later in the game)
Double barreled shotgun (perhaps as award for side questions)
Pump action shot gun (side quest)
Anti-tank rifle (agains later in game)
BAR rifle (later)
Prototype submachine guns (sidequest + later in game)

Secondary
Webley revolver
Mauser semi-automatic or a Luger(captured from Germans)
Colt 1911 (later in war)

Melee:
Bayonet
Bowie knife (captured from germans)
Cosh (steel rod rapped in leather favoured by English)
Improvised trench clubs
Officer's swords
Sharpened shovels
and more stuff

Your pistol and melee could be used together at times. You would also carry a couple of grenades.

A heavy element of combat would be the melee side, either a brutal scuffle in the confined space of a trench or silent killing in the dark of no man's land. You'd be able to perform melee attack like elbowing and kicking like in condemned also.

The gun play wouldn't necessarily be slow paced, I mean Call of Juarez make even older and slower weapons quite exciting. Player would have to get to trying to be accurate and maintain cover before closing in violently with bayonet or shovel.

I should also mention gas and disease. If pushed though gas would create in game, impassible spots in no man's land and another thing you have to worry about on your lines, you'd have to run get a crude gas mask or something.

Disease, could be mentioned quite often (by medical officers, NCOs etc), but would be harder to implement in the actual play. At most things like trench foot and respiratory infection could be implemented as restrictions to running speed, health etc. But anything worse might have to skip by your character, for the shake of maintaining the story.

I've also been thinking that environment having effects on your clothing could be implemented quite well. You start each day with a pristine (well at least cleaner) seat of clothes, each time you hit the dirt and land in mud, the clothing gets dirty, can get torn when going through wire and bloodstained in combat.

Sample from game:
Imagine this, its a few hours before dawn but very illuminated by the full moon, you and two other soldiers crawl up the side of a crater, you see German's placing heavy rolls of wire over the edge. The three of you pick a target and fire simultaneously before firing off the more rounds rapidly and throwing crude grenades, this met with screams of anguish and surprise.

Without a moment to appreciate your work you fling youself back into the crater as machine gun fire rakes the top. Scrambling down the slop and wading through the water of the shell crater, you start to run stumblingly as you hear the "fwoop" of a mortar. You get out of the crater just as an explosion lands nearby.

You get separated from your two comrades who are hightailing it back to lines, when you dive into another artillery crater, this one filled with corpses from a previous attack. As you peer over the edge of the crater prone, a noise behind you makes you start to turn. One of the corpses isn't dead (rather he was hiding) and his hands are wrapped around your throat. Your rifle gets knocked out of your hands. You draw your revolver and pull the trigger, but with all the water and mud its doesn't fire. Rapidly, as the screen goes back, you click to slam the butt into his head. His fingers loosen and you realize once again you're the only living man in this crater.

That would be something to talk about around the water cooler.

I wonder if suhlEap expected this to get so huge...