why can lesbians flirt in a way that's harassment if guys do it?

[Trunkage]

Well the girl who told me about it happening was in my opinion SUPER HOT 10/10 bi girl. As in, wanted to date her before personality differences made it seem impossible. The location was a regular, 18 year old dance club. No exclusivity to lesbians, no alcohol to blur people's view.

Maybe you can only do it if you're a SUPER HOT girl but this was just my opinion about her attractiveness. Hell she could have slapped my ass and I would have felt uncomfortable about that but still gone along with it and kissed her, etc.

University student that's 18 probably has different social norms.0

Also I've never been to "the club" so maybe I just don't understand. But seriously, in general I notice girls being really aggressive hitting on each other (when that's the way they swing).

As some other people have already said, I think it would come down to context. You get offended at people who you are not interested in touching you, but love attention from those we are. Obviously if its an initial contact, then hotness is going to be the main determining characteristic.

As a person who has had the genital handshake as the first interaction from strangers of both sexes, that didn't happen for me (I like forward people but that's a bit much and their hotness didn't even register), maybe it works for some people.

 

[Pax Romana]

Shortest answer I could give is that all women are afraid of all men all the time.

Seen it myself in numerous public places. If I'm walking out of the gym and a woman is also leaving, I'll hold the door for her. And she practically sprints to her car, glancing over her shoulder the entire way and stopping just short of screaming like a victim in an 80s slasher flick. Meanwhile I'm casually walking to my car on the other side of the lot, occasionally checking my email or texts.

Grocery stores. I'll be standing in a isle, comparing whatever to whatever. A woman wants to enter the isle too, but she simply won't. She won't dare be alone with a man in a full packed grocery store at 2pm. So she'll circle, waiting for me to leave.

Truly if I didn't know better I'd say all men walked around dressed up as Jason Voorhees all the time.

Is this sarcasm? This seems like sarcasm or I really hope it is. Although I have seen this said around here before seriously and honestly I wonder where some of these people live, I am going to guess that it's America. I am from Ireland and I have never noticed a woman who looks frightened simply by my presence (6ft, 90kg). Perhaps that has happened but it has never been obvious to me. If it was I would just assume she is in some way traumatised or emotionally dammaged because if she thinks all men are dangerous then there is something wrong with her and her world view.

I asked my girlfriend this before and a female friend and they said the only time a man would make them nervous is if they are walking alone on a dark road or something like that.

Only the internet equates flirting to harassment and small numbers of people who think internet equates to real world.

But talking with actual people (not internet drama pants characters) you will not run into these moronic presumptions, and if you do that is a definitive marker that person is batshit so walk away while you still can.

Well said.

 

[Nailzzz]

When I was with my ex, my current GF use to have issues with women hitting on her rather blatantly. My ex used to have to pretend to be her GF to get other women to leave her alone. They would be at a club(not a lesbian one) and they would just walk up and sit in her lap and try to make out with her without even saying a word. So yeah lesbians can be pretty forward. I'm guessing it usually works for them or I doubt that would have adopted the practice.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think it's part of the culture when specifically dealing with homosexuals in general. As bad and as homophobic as this is going to sound, due to the way society perceives homosexuality, most homosexuals, male, or female, are out for a quickie. There are lots of problems with homosexuals being able to find any intimacy, and they can get desperate for physical contact. This is actually a huge part of what drives the bug catcher/gift giver culture amongst gay men. While not all gay men and lesbian women are super foreword, there actually tends to be a pressure amongst them needing to be super foreword. I REALLY hate to say this, but in general... Straight people tend to have more respect for personal space. At least this is what I've in my own personal experience, and what a lot of gay and lesbian people tell me.

Being trans and passing for female I get hit on by lesbians a lot, as well as gay guys, and oddly enough straight people of both sexes. Lesbians are at least far less inappropriate in their flirting than gay men are. The problem I have is that lesbians tend to react the very worst of anyone when they find out I'm trans. It's not like I get them in bed and they find out that way either, just telling them turns them instantly horribly hostile and mean. Lesbians have this weird tenancy to act like anything feminine is holy and only for biological women. They get super offended when they learn someone who was born male is wearing a dress and if they pass they get really angry.

I really can't explain this. The other end of the scale is gay guys will like flock to me and flirt really hard and put a ton of effort into trying to get in my pants. When it comes to the "trans panic" sort of thing, generally I get more disappointment than other negative reactions when I tell a straight guy. Sometimes straight guys will try to adopt a bi stance on it though, or tell me they'd go gay for me. Which is really flattering, but not more likely to get me to get in bed with them. I generally don't get hit on by straight women, when I do it's usually after they learn I'm trans. Though some of the worst reactions I've had to the knowledge of my being trans was from straight women.

As for women feeling threatened by men? Yeah I can relate actually. I'm small and not very strong, so foreword guys can be scary, especially when they're big and not fat big either. Plus the way guys can sometimes look at women is less like they're appreciating her, and more like they're looking at a cut of tasty meat. Some of it is just sexism at work, or hard line extremist feminist ideas about the idea that all men are rapists... Some of it is though the justified fear of the fact that a man is far far more likely to rape a woman, than say another man, or a woman will rape a man, or woman.

 

[balladbird]

It's not all that great, most girls I attempt to flirt with have absolutely no idea I actually want to get into their pants. They just think I'm being friendly

this basically exemplifies the biggest reason I can think of. I have no personal experience with any lesbians behaving in the way you describe, but if I were forced to theorize why same-sex flirtation seems more overt than het flirtation, I'd say it's probably because a gay person has to put a lot more effort into showing that they're romantically interested in another person of the same gender, since even if the other person is gay as well, they're not really conditioned to interpret attention they get from another man/woman in a romantic way.

the points raised by others more eloquent than I seem fair, as well.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I don't know, but it seems slightly like a false distinction to me.

Harrassment happens, and often goes largely unpunished if done in certain contexts. I've been harassed by lesbians, and guys, and witnessed others being subjected to the same. But, context matters.
All this harrasment happened in and around nightclubs.

And yes, lesbians were doing it too, but where I disagree with your assessment, is the idea that men were being punished for it, and women weren't.

Rather, in my experience, in the right context, everyone just gets away with it in general.
Lesbians aren't getting away with more, it's just I've only witnessed them do it in environments where people in general were being let off doing questionable things.

Funny how oblivious poeple can be to how uncomfortable they are making someone else though...

I certainly have no idea why a lesbian thought it ok to stick her hands down my pants without warning...
But I also have no idea why a guy thought it OK to try and hug and kiss me at random, and not even let go when I was clearly trying to break free of his grip...

It surprises me more that people don't notice that it isn't appreciated afterwards than that they do it in the first place.

 

[irishda]

I think it's because there's a secret organization dedicated to making sure life is harder and more unfair for men, especially white men, but we can't admit there's a problem or else the feminist agenda comes after us and seizes our kids and house.

Or maybe it's because you extrapolated one situation into an entire social trend, since one sample size is enough to determine a larger trend, and lesbians just flirt in a variety of ways like everyone else.

I think either one is good.

 

[Ryotknife]

SNIP.

The men I have dated had no problem having their drivers license photocopied by a friend in order to have an opportunity to have a date with me, I have never had a man not agree to have their ID photocopied so I don't think my safety is that much of an inconvenience for them. Not only did I have a friend keep a copy of their ID< my friend ALSO happens to own a background checking company. LOL

I wont lie, that would be a deal breaker to me. My first thought is that im about to become a victim of some kind of identiy theft scheme or something. Yes, im overly cautious/paranoid too. Whenever im in any public place where there are a lot of people passing close to me, I keep one hand on my wallet. When i walk home at night through a neighborhood of mostly old people you would swear i was being hunted by ninjas by the way i keep looking around me.

 

[chuckman1]

The men I have dated had no problem having their drivers license photocopied by a friend in order to have an opportunity to have a date with me, I have never had a man not agree to have their ID photocopied so I don't think my safety is that much of an inconvenience for them. Not only did I have a friend keep a copy of their ID< my friend ALSO happens to own a background checking company. LOL

Gotta be honest I would be...sketchy about that like the fella above me. I would think you were either gonna steal my identity, sell copy id's on the black market, or were a Russian spy plotting my assassination.

The background checks would creep me out even more like what's next my Social Security number? Blood sample?

Whatever works for you is good, but a bit much for me I never saw a photo ID of any girl I was with.
If you live in a country with guns I would suggest getting one, blasting an attacker seems pretty good to me.

Also, unrelated personal question: Never over 2 weeks single? How do you get over someone that fast? Hell it took me over 6 months to get over my first "love" when we only dated 2 months

OT-Some people will think I'm a sexist jerky MRA but in my defense, it really does seem like gay flirting is more aggressive than straight flirting among MY CIRCLE of friends (I don't like hanging out with guys who go around groping). And yeah most gay people in my state seem to be hiding it so when you find someone that is it may have a "better seize the opportunity" effect.

 

[Loonyyy]

Because they can? Harassment isn't flirtation, and men and women, straight and gay, can do it. Men harassing women is more common, sure. There are more straight men than there are lesbian women, and straight men are encouraged to be the initiators in sexual relations, whist women are not, and lesbian women additionally face potential homophobia, if they are even out. Additionally, as women, they are more likely to experience sexual harassment themselves.

Yeah, that example? That's creepy aggressive invasive shit, that's not cool whether a man or a woman does it. This time it was well received, but frequently, those advances are utterly unwelcome. For instance, see a lot of so called "Pick Up" tactics. An awful lot of those are boundary pushing, harassing, and often fail (Even by the so called "Artists" estimation). Occasionally working does not justify them the rest of the time.

 

[Terminal Blue]

The premise is misleading because whether or not something is harassment is always contextual regardless of who is doing it. If someone is okay with something, it's not harassment. If someone tells you to stop something and you don't, that's harassment. Different social settings will have different conventions on what it is acceptable to do.

Sure, there's a difference between a girl and a guy touching a potential partner's butt. There's also a difference between a heavily muscled bulldyke and a tiny little femme doing the same. It's always important to be considerate of what other people's boundaries are going to be, but that doesn't mean in some situations it isn't totally acceptable to touch someone without asking, for example.

snip

I'm not sure you're getting how risk assessment works.

Let's imagine you have a choice between two possible scenarios:

Option one: I flip a coin. If it's heads, I give you a hundred bucks. If its tails I slap you in the face.

Option two: I roll a D20 dice. If it comes up one I pull out a gun and shoot you in the face. If it comes up any other number I give you a hundred bucks.

Which is the better deal?

When people assess risk, they aren't just assessing the probability of something bad happening but also the severity of the risk itself. In this case, most people would immediately decide that a high risk action with low severity is preferable to a low risk action with high severity. It isn't necessary to believe that a single D20 dice roll is in any way likely to yield a natural one if the consequences of rolling a natural one are particularly severe.

Thus, there's no need to assume that fear of a potentially very negative outcome indicates a belief in the widespread prevalance of that outcome.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

SNIP.

The men I have dated had no problem having their drivers license photocopied by a friend in order to have an opportunity to have a date with me, I have never had a man not agree to have their ID photocopied so I don't think my safety is that much of an inconvenience for them. Not only did I have a friend keep a copy of their ID< my friend ALSO happens to own a background checking company. LOL

I wont lie, that would be a deal breaker to me. My first thought is that im about to become a victim of some kind of identiy theft scheme or something. Yes, im overly cautious/paranoid too. Whenever im in any public place where there are a lot of people passing close to me, I keep one hand on my wallet. When i walk home at night through a neighborhood of mostly old people you would swear i was being hunted by ninjas by the way i keep looking around me.

Considering I rarely dated a man who earned more than I did, the last thing they were concerned with was me stealing their identity. I guess that would be determined by the type of people you tend to date. Being an attractive physician, however, guys have been completely understanding if they wish to have me alone to themselves. Now, meeting them in public with friends prior to an actual date, sure, but No, they would not get me alone to themselves without going through my chaperone's inspection first.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

The men I have dated had no problem having their drivers license photocopied by a friend in order to have an opportunity to have a date with me, I have never had a man not agree to have their ID photocopied so I don't think my safety is that much of an inconvenience for them. Not only did I have a friend keep a copy of their ID< my friend ALSO happens to own a background checking company. LOL

Gotta be honest I would be...sketchy about that like the fella above me. I would think you were either gonna steal my identity, sell copy id's on the black market, or were a Russian spy plotting my assassination.

The background checks would creep me out even more like what's next my Social Security number? Blood sample?

Whatever works for you is good, but a bit much for me I never saw a photo ID of any girl I was with.
If you live in a country with guns I would suggest getting one, blasting an attacker seems pretty good to me.

Also, unrelated personal question: Never over 2 weeks single? How do you get over someone that fast? Hell it took me over 6 months to get over my first "love" when we only dated 2 months

OT-Some people will think I'm a sexist jerky MRA but in my defense, it really does seem like gay flirting is more aggressive than straight flirting among MY CIRCLE of friends (I don't like hanging out with guys who go around groping). And yeah most gay people in my state seem to be hiding it so when you find someone that is it may have a "better seize the opportunity" effect.

It is kind of creepy that you didn't know for sure any of the girls you dated were who they said they were. You could have dated Anastasia Beaverhausen and not even known it! HAHA! Their ID was required to be alone with me, Blood test doesn't become involved unless they wanted to have sex, and yes, I do require a blood test. When I interned at an STD clinic, it became apparently clear, no matter how much I may want to tear his clothes off with my teeth, it is not worth an STD to do so. Though I have no need for either now, I have been in a monogamous relationship a long while now and can enjoy sex to the fullest unprotected since we know we are both clear, and I have no intention of getting pregnant. He had no problem with my precautions, and respected me for them. It is better to be safe than sorry.

As for not being " single" for long, I have never been broken up with, so I do not know what that is like. By the time I break up with a guy I am over him and have tried everything I can think of to make it work, so my grieving is usually finished by the point I finally give up on trying and I am ready to move on. I have never been cheated on and have never cheated on a guy so it was always a matter of the relationship itself being a bad match, or in my ex's circumstance, he turned out to be a psycho killer that tried to kill me because he had " dreams about things."

I have also never had a shortage of guys asking me out, in one night alone going out with my friends clubbing, we counted 154 phone numbers that men had given me that I had no intention of ever calling, so it isn't like I had a reason to stay in bad relationship, so might as well move on when it was done. I actually do own a glock 40, but that isn't going to help me if I allowed myself to be in a compromising position with a man who chose to harm me.

EDIT: On another note, if you did not know for sure the identity of any of the girls you dated, what happens if one of their partners tests positive for an STD and are unable to contact her or everyone she slept with to let them know they are at risk? By law they are required to inform her former partners at risk, however, if the identity is unknown then you could be walking around giving others STDs unknowing that you were exposed.

 

[The Bucket]

I hear plenty of stories with bi or lesbian girls doing things that would get guys harassment suits.
Example: "i saw her big ass and slapped it, she turned around and gave me her number, we kissed that night."

Man, I need to start going to different bars

 

[Johnny Impact]

Imagine a woman hitting on you. Now imagine you told her no and instead of backing off she is crowding you, touching you, making it clear this is going to happen, it's going to happen now, and it's going to happen on her terms. Now imagine she's eight inches taller and has seventy pounds on you. Now imagine you or someone close to you has already been harassed or sexually assaulted at some point in the past, maybe more than once, perhaps by this very woman.

Beginning to see the issue?

Most rapists are men. Most criminals are men. Most cases of harassment are against men. Men tend to be larger and stronger. Men are threats, women aren't.

Being 6'2" and 240lbs pretty much means any woman's first reaction to seeing me is to check for exits. I've seen them notice me and suddenly double-time it across the parking lot, cross the street to avoid me, etc. I never talk to women because I figure they're already scared. I just hunch over, make myself as small as possible, and try to pretend they aren't there.

 

[MonsterCrit]

I'll let others add examples but for the scenario you described, it basically the perception that women are non threatening, and men are threatening. Basically add it to the category of sexist societal perceptions.

Actually it's a little more subtle than that. We have different internal rule books for social interactions based on perceived gender.

Most famously.

For guys it's: DOn't hit women.

See because we're playing by different rule books our perceptions on the actions of others are coloured by this. The same action froma woman will trigger entirely different social cues than when it comes from a man. Threatening isn't the word it's just differently contextualized.

 

[Saetha]

Shortest answer I could give is that all women are afraid of all men all the time.

Seen it myself in numerous public places. If I'm walking out of the gym and a woman is also leaving, I'll hold the door for her. And she practically sprints to her car, glancing over her shoulder the entire way and stopping just short of screaming like a victim in an 80s slasher flick. Meanwhile I'm casually walking to my car on the other side of the lot, occasionally checking my email or texts.

Grocery stores. I'll be standing in a isle, comparing whatever to whatever. A woman wants to enter the isle too, but she simply won't. She won't dare be alone with a man in a full packed grocery store at 2pm. So she'll circle, waiting for me to leave.

Truly if I didn't know better I'd say all men walked around dressed up as Jason Voorhees all the time.

Much of how women feel they must be cautious around men is due to their own past experiences, and trying to reduce the chances of something happening again. From my own personal experience, it has affected how I view things and my behavior when near men. I always make sure I have an escape route, not allowing myself to be too close in proximity to men, being aware of who is around me and taking precautions to help reduce me being targeted again. Women really do have to do these things because women are so frequently targeted.

You may think that sounds like an overreaction, but it really is not due to what happens if we are not cautious. For me it started when I was a child and was violently raped by a 24 year old bouncer while walking from my friends home at 4pm in the afternoon. Then again I was attacked in highschool by a "friend of a friend" but luckily was able to fight off my attacker. Then again at 19 while walking to work at 9am two men in a pickup truck tried to grab me and pull me into the truck, then again a guy who lived two apartments down tried to hold me down and luckily I fought him off, then I bartended in college and there were countless ass slapping, boob grabbing and unwanted physical touching while working by hundreds of men, then my ex tried to kill me (twice) and finally went to prison after stabbing a neighbor who saved my life. Then again had a guy try to attack me in the hallway at the hotel I was staying at, then again I had a guy put his hand in my purse while walking down the sidewalk, then again had a guy breathe on my neck and sniff my hair while in line at the gas station... And MORE.

These things are actually so common and happen to so many women day and night, women do have a reason to take precaution now. It would be great if women didn't have to deal with this shit, but we do, and unless the frequency changes, it is better we are cautious than worse off for not being so.

...What the hell sort of neighborhood do you live in?

I'm a woman and I've had literally none of these things happen to me. I've never felt so much as threatened by a man.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Shortest answer I could give is that all women are afraid of all men all the time.

Seen it myself in numerous public places. If I'm walking out of the gym and a woman is also leaving, I'll hold the door for her. And she practically sprints to her car, glancing over her shoulder the entire way and stopping just short of screaming like a victim in an 80s slasher flick. Meanwhile I'm casually walking to my car on the other side of the lot, occasionally checking my email or texts.

Grocery stores. I'll be standing in a isle, comparing whatever to whatever. A woman wants to enter the isle too, but she simply won't. She won't dare be alone with a man in a full packed grocery store at 2pm. So she'll circle, waiting for me to leave.

Truly if I didn't know better I'd say all men walked around dressed up as Jason Voorhees all the time.

Much of how women feel they must be cautious around men is due to their own past experiences, and trying to reduce the chances of something happening again. From my own personal experience, it has affected how I view things and my behavior when near men. I always make sure I have an escape route, not allowing myself to be too close in proximity to men, being aware of who is around me and taking precautions to help reduce me being targeted again. Women really do have to do these things because women are so frequently targeted.

You may think that sounds like an overreaction, but it really is not due to what happens if we are not cautious. For me it started when I was a child and was violently raped by a 24 year old bouncer while walking from my friends home at 4pm in the afternoon. Then again I was attacked in highschool by a "friend of a friend" but luckily was able to fight off my attacker. Then again at 19 while walking to work at 9am two men in a pickup truck tried to grab me and pull me into the truck, then again a guy who lived two apartments down tried to hold me down and luckily I fought him off, then I bartended in college and there were countless ass slapping, boob grabbing and unwanted physical touching while working by hundreds of men, then my ex tried to kill me (twice) and finally went to prison after stabbing a neighbor who saved my life. Then again had a guy try to attack me in the hallway at the hotel I was staying at, then again I had a guy put his hand in my purse while walking down the sidewalk, then again had a guy breathe on my neck and sniff my hair while in line at the gas station... And MORE.

These things are actually so common and happen to so many women day and night, women do have a reason to take precaution now. It would be great if women didn't have to deal with this shit, but we do, and unless the frequency changes, it is better we are cautious than worse off for not being so.

...What the hell sort of neighborhood do you live in?

I'm a woman and I've had literally none of these things happen to me. I've never felt so much as threatened by a man.

The wealthiest per sq ft county in the state of Texas, where we have like 23 billionaires who live nearby. The man who raped me as a child came from a very wealthy family whose home actually looked like a castle.

 

[Saetha]

The wealthiest per sq ft county in the state of Texas, where we have like 23 billionaires who live nearby. The man who raped me as a child came from a very wealthy family whose home actually looked like a castle.

...Wuh... what the...

I mean, I come from a pretty high-end neighborhood (In Texas too, at that) but the worst we ever got was some teenage dickhead robbing a house and bragging about it on facebook.

Granted I've never gotten 154 numbers in a single night either. I haven't got 154 numbers in my life. I've gotten, like, three. Are you sure you're not Aphrodite re-incarnated or something?

 

[likalaruku]

I think it's about girth & height & how they affect how much a person will be intimidated. There's also the fact that men & women very rarely report being raped by women, or that women are "statistically" less likely to be serial killers than men, so women are considered significantly less threatening by the general public. Lastly, women are predispositioned to be far pickier about the who & when when it comes to getting laid.

I have gone to school with & worked with women who consider it to be sexual harassment if a man they're not attracted to even looks at them funny. Not even joking. Women giving them bedroom eyes...Not so much.