Why can't fantasy RPGs be more original?

[tobyornottoby]

(In reply to first post) Well, Goblins, Orcs, Elves, and such are what makes up medieval fantasies. However, rpgs don't have to just take place in just that setting either, so I guess I can see the repetitiveness in that.

No, they make up tolkienesque / D&D medieval fantasies. dwarves and elves come in all shapes and sizes in all kinds of folklore... but as the TC says, these days they're almost always depicted as the Tolkien ones

 

[Nazrel]

Themes are even worse than settings.

All this "saving the world" and "stupid-good vs. stupid-evil" bullshit gets old REALLY fast.

-- Alex

Try playing a Suikoden V. All politics, no world saving, and no good vs evil. (most JRPG's don't really have good vs evil.)

 

[Anniko]

Going off on a tangent here. Why are all the races in my science fiction (Looking at you, Mass Effect, Star Wars, Star Trek), just humans with different heads and skin?

WRT the xenomorphs in the Alien movies, I always thought they acted more like cats or bears than humans.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I agree with you, I looked at Dragon Age and went "Cool, but it looks REALLY generic"

The problem isn't so much with Fantasy RPG's as it is with Fantasy in general, it has, over the years, become a very boring, staid and tired Genre. There are very few innovations made in literature or gaming and most of the time we end up with the same type of rag tag band fighting the same type pf evil overlords.

Personally I like Real World Fantasy, the sort that delves deep into actual folklore to tell its story like, well, Folklore.

I can find more generic fantasy interesting, as long as it has a compelling mythology, but I definately prefer fantasy worlds with an Edge like China Meiville's "Bas-Lag" series, Barry Hugharts "Master Li and Number 10 Ox Series", Greg Keyes "Age of Unreason". All of those are very original and very interesting.

 

[GothmogII]

Going off on a tangent here. Why are all the races in my science fiction (Looking at you, Mass Effect, Star Wars, Star Trek), just humans with different heads and skin?

WRT the xenomorphs in the Alien movies, I always thought they acted more like cats or bears than humans.

In films, is sort of justified. Elaborate costumes cost more money, it's far easier and cheaper simply to have your actors paint their skin or wear a prosthetic forehead. Why this carries over sometimes into games and animation I've no idea, though, animation seems to go for the more widely varied forms more often than games I think. Mass Effect of course has a good few examples of the 'painted' human type alien, the humanoid forms out number the non-humanoid of course.

Humanoid:

Asari (Liara)

Batarians (Bounty Hunter guys)

Humans

Krogan (Wrex)

Quarians (Tali)

Salarians (Many of the shopkeepers)

Turians (Garrus)

Volus (Little short fat guys in suits)

versus Non-Humanoid:

The Keepers

Elcor (Slow speaking big guys)

Hanar (Pink jellyfish things)

Rachni (Bugs)

However, the humanoid races I thought were still well designed, and think, if humans can be bi-pedal with two arms and two legs, why not any other possible species? It works for us, so why not for something else? Evolution doesn't always have to be interesting, just that it works I think. So..if you've got a planet of sentient protoplasmic blobs, that just works for them, but I wonder if said blobs are going to be thinking "What the hell are all these -other- blob like people doing in the universe! It's so boring...where are all the legged wierd things, all those creatures with *shudder* fingers?"

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Mass Effect did a good job with their aliens, I really loved the Quarians. But fantasy is locked in some pretty bad tropes at the moment...

You almost always have...

- The Pretty Etherial Race
- The Surly Short Race
- The Ugly Evil Race

EDIT:

I actually thought Final Fantasy XII had a fairly original Fantasy setting, with a high focus on politics, militarism and ancient mythology coupled with its Star Wars Like Airships and Races, as well as its interesting approach to magic. (fuck you Kung-Fu Grip, FFXII had a subtle and sophisticated narrative, unlike every other entry in the series)

 

[monodiabloloco]

Personally, I have never really tired of the high fantasy style settings. If you are (OP), what I would suggest is a good P&P game with your buds. (or mates if you aren't from the US)
Pen and paper games are great fun and completly allow you freedom to create whatever you want.
For computer games, someone already suggested arcanum, I would also suggest Lionhart..at least that's what I remember it being called. The control scheme and game play are very akin to Torment, but it's set in our world only magic now exists. It has actual historical characters(Leonardo DaVinci is one of the main story characters), so no orks and elves, and a pretty decent story.

 

[Eyclonus]

Fantasy RPG is too often based on Fantasy literature, which in 99.9% of the market is ripped off Tolkien.

Having a bit of background in fantasy fandom, I can honestly say blame Tolkien the Biggot.

Most authors try to homage the authors who influenced them and since Tolkien kick-started modern fantasy with the Bored of the Rings (lets be honest it is terrible to go back and re-read them with their lack of clarity, phenomenally predictable personalities and just pathetically predictable narrative).

There are some unique RPGs out there that eschew standard High-Fantasy, Vampire: The Masquerade:Redemption, VTM:Bloodlines(Yes I'm more than aware its unfinished but imagine how amazing it would be if they'd had the time to finish it), NightWatch(Like Bloodlines, sooooo cool but in dire need of a patch).

Although I wonder if you'd say its a coincidence that these games are all urban fantasy, at night, and killing vampires?

 

[AntiAntagonist]

Alright then, if you want an original idea for a fantasy RPG, how about taking the turmoil of the Los Angeles gang scene and replacing the easily available guns and weapons with magical abilities? You play as the Chinese protagonist trying to elevate your status to the ruler of the city.

You just described pnp Shadowrun, minus the guns. Awesome setting, with unforgiving battles. Games usually take place in Seattle (it is CyberPUNK, afterall), but the setting covers the rest of the globe too.

It'd sure be a fun game though. Though I could see some weird protests against it. All the fun of book burning of Harry Potter with GTA outrage.

 

[Alex_P]

Fantasy RPG is too often based on Fantasy literature, which in 99.9% of the market is ripped off Tolkien.

Looks more like they're ripping off some weird construct that is called "traditional fantasy" or "Tolkienesque fantasy" or "high fantasy" but doesn't really resemble Tolkien all that much if you really dig down into it. It looks more like... D&D.

Although I wonder if you'd say its a coincidence that these games are all urban fantasy, at night, and killing vampires?

No, it probably just means you like Vampire so that's what you picked up.

"Urban fantasy" is just as polluted a genre as "traditional fantasy." Bookstore shelves bulge with Anne Rice knock-offs. Both genres still have some good stuff in them, but it's truly ridiculous to hold up "urban fantasy" as somehow "unique" or innovative. The tropes are just as predictable and piled on just as thickly.

-- Alex

 

[ReverseEngineered]

I propose the following: An action-rpg like Mass Effect, set in Mayan mythology. Here you are a Mayan priest/priestess that gets fed up with the inhumanity that the gods have brought forth. He/she begins a journey that sets him/her out to challenge them. It'll be like Fallout where you can select the way you play and you can persuade people to your side. Instead of HP, you have a luck gauge. Every time you get attacked without blocking you narrowly avoid the attack, but you lose luck. Once your luck's run out you get killed. I tend to get tired of seeing characters take 20+ stabs/clubs/punches/burns without dying. This would make more sense. You earn magic as you learn it from enemies and gods.

Now that's something I'd go for.

Wow. I want that game.

The luck mechanic is interesting, though I'm not sure how effective it would be. Still, it beats the typical HP/MP. Unlike the somewhat intangible understanding of running out of HP (if you only have 1/1000 HP, aren't you so close to death that it's effectively impossible to move?), the idea of running out of luck sure makes sense, and it explains why you never seem to get hurt until your luck runs out and you actually get hit. Not to mention, the fragile-but-lucky hero is much more believable than the bullet-absorbing, sword-stopping hero who heals up with a "medikit" or a few minutes of rest.

The setting would certainly be a first and the idea of fighting back against the gods is appealing in a Hercules/Xena sort of way. It seems most RPGs are content with fighting some central enemy which amasses a great following of cronies (perhaps because that fits the format well). Fighting "the gods" would be much more interesting. Hell, the difference between friend or foe could depend on which "god" the person follows. It could even be similar to The Matrix where any person could be working on behalf of the gods. As I mentioned, Hercules and Xena have tons of canon that various stories/mechanics could be based on.

All in all, I appreciate the relative normality of this idea. No cliched "fallen son of the gods" character, no amazing innate abilities. You get an ordinary person in a remote time (to make it interesting), who shares the same pains as everyone else (angry at the unfairness of the gods), who decides to try and fight back. They don't have any special abilities to start with, but they eventually learn and develop skills until they become great warriors (you know, DEVELOPMENT, what RPGs are supposed to be about). If game developers insist on following formulas, this one has a lot of potential.

I want this game.

 

[_Serendipity_]

I think the 'luck' idea is fantastic. Rather than the 'hide while your shelids recharge' mechanic (such as in Halo), you can recharge your 'luck' by finding somewhere quiet to pray, do a 'lucky ritual', sacrifice something to the Gods or whatever.
A random element would be interesting, such as when your luck is below 50%, there's a chance that the next hit may kill you, which would increase inversely to your remaining luck. However, I'm pretty opposed to random chance in games, so whilst I think it'd be cool, it'd be horribly annoying too.

Oh, and on-topic, whilst the characters were pretty much JRPG stereotypes, Final Fantasy VII had a fantastically original plot. Hell, the first few hours of the game saw you playing as an enviromental terrorist, blowing up nucular-power-plant-equivalents.

 

[ReverseEngineered]

The problem with deviating far from the whole orcs'n elves deal, is that fantasy relies heavily on anthropomorphism of human attributes into separate fantastic creatures and cultures.

If you deviate too far from something resembling a humanoid or having any ties with anything commonly found in the real world, you end up with something that people will have trouble identifying with and it'll be detrimental to the game.

I agree, and I think the biggest problem is that, as human beings, we have trouble understanding what it would be like to be anything other than human. We anthropomorphize all of the time: from the wind that howls, to the trees that dance and sway, to the babbling brook. What is it like to be a cat, a cow, a bird? We imagine that their experience is quite flat: they follow whatever desire seems most pertinent, from a small set of eat, sleep, socialize, etc. We don't imagine they have emotions or feelings; though we often anthropomorphize these into their actions.

So how do we make any sort of role out of being a cow? Aside from a few meters telling us how hungry, sleepy, and hot we are, there aren't many things that we can understand as being the "experience" of a cow. No deep motivations, no plots, perhaps not even any consciousness.

On the other hand, a great writer may one day come up with such a character. I would love nothing better than to see an author create the experience of another creature without making it human. I don't know if it's possible, since I can't even imagine it, but it would certainly be ground-breaking.

 

[Grampy_bone]

You could say all of this about any game genre. What you're really doing is quoting Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Fantasy RPG is too often based on Fantasy literature, which in 99.9% of the market is ripped off Tolkien.

Having a bit of background in fantasy fandom, I can honestly say blame Tolkien the Biggot.

Most authors try to homage the authors who influenced them and since Tolkien kick-started modern fantasy with the Bored of the Rings (lets be honest it is terrible to go back and re-read them with their lack of clarity, phenomenally predictable personalities and just pathetically predictable narrative).

There are some unique RPGs out there that eschew standard High-Fantasy, Vampire: The Masquerade:Redemption, VTM:Bloodlines(Yes I'm more than aware its unfinished but imagine how amazing it would be if they'd had the time to finish it), NightWatch(Like Bloodlines, sooooo cool but in dire need of a patch).

Although I wonder if you'd say its a coincidence that these games are all urban fantasy, at night, and killing vampires?

Um... hackneyed Vampire Fiction? That's considered "horror" not "fantasy" though it could be argued that all horror is just "Dark Fantasy" so I'll let it rest. However in the end it's just as bad and has it's own tropes and cliches. That's also not what the "Urban Fantasy" Genre consists of, Urban Fantasy or Magic-Realism Fantasy fits more along the lines of Niel Gaiman's "American Gods" or "Anansi Boys", other interesting works in this sub-genre are pretty much anything by Charles DeLindt, Terry Brooks's "Running with the Demon" and it's sequels. They tend to be interesting and different but they also have their own tropes and cliches that a lot of writers fall into.

The most original fantasy I've ever read comes out of the New Weird Movement, the whole purpose being to escape Tolkien's influence on the fantasy Genre and introduce new and exciting elements that are TRULY fantastic and wonderous, and in this case you end up with alot of strange city scapes and lots of Eastern Mythology infused stories. Sometimes this stuff can be hard to read/follow though.

If you want some TRULY innovative fantasy I recommend the following.

The Etched City by KJ Bishop
Perdido Street Station, The Scar and The Iron Council by China Meiville
The Borribles Trilogy by Michael de Larrabeiti
The Year of Our War by Steph Swainson
The Ghormenghast Trilogy by Mervyn Peake
The Mortal Engines Quintet by Phillip Reeve
Anything and Everything written by Michael Moorcocke, there is not a more innovative or creative fantasy author alive today than him, his books range from Comedy, to High Adventure, to Gothic Horror, he's a fnuckin genius.

If you want less insanity and more fun/easy reading fiction that is equally original there are other authors out there as well.

The Age of Unreason Quadrillogy by Gregory Keyes, very easy to read books that are so exciting I had trouble putting them down, the imagine a world where Alchemy worked and science didn't.

The Bridge of Birds by Barry Hughart, A mystery-adventure set in Mythical Ancient China starring a Chinese Holmes and Watson. Full of breakneck action and lots of narrow escapes.

The previously mentioned Niel Gaiman books, if you haven't already read them you should.

EDIT: Apparently someone has acquired the rights to produce China Meiville's "Bas-Lag" world in videogame form, that should be interesting.

 

[Melaisis]

Do yuo count the final fantasy series as fantasy rpg's? Because (imo, I know some people around here think they're the devils toilet paper) they've got some fantastic storylines that are at once interesting and set in fairly unique fantasy worlds. Riding giant birds? Giant cacti as enemies? Strange combinations of machinery and monster?

Lots of interesting stuff going on in Final Fantasy.

Agreed. Its a kind of 'alternative' fantasy that dabbles in everything from medieval worlds, to steampunk, to futuristic utopias.

 

[Alienmen1]

the thing i hate about RPG is when (per exemple when player Eternal Sonata)
you fight a monster and Later in the game
ITS THE SAME MONSTER WITH DIFFERENT COLOR BUT STRONGER

I hate that!

no originality at all!

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Ah palet swapping, the better way to do that is to have a similar looking monster show up, so they look like different species of the same critter, much more realistic.

 

[Proto Cloud]

Wow. I want that game.

The luck mechanic is interesting, though I'm not sure how effective it would be. Still, it beats the typical HP/MP. Unlike the somewhat intangible understanding of running out of HP (if you only have 1/1000 HP, aren't you so close to death that it's effectively impossible to move?), the idea of running out of luck sure makes sense, and it explains why you never seem to get hurt until your luck runs out and you actually get hit. Not to mention, the fragile-but-lucky hero is much more believable than the bullet-absorbing, sword-stopping hero who heals up with a "medikit" or a few minutes of rest.

The setting would certainly be a first and the idea of fighting back against the gods is appealing in a Hercules/Xena sort of way. It seems most RPGs are content with fighting some central enemy which amasses a great following of cronies (perhaps because that fits the format well). Fighting "the gods" would be much more interesting. Hell, the difference between friend or foe could depend on which "god" the person follows. It could even be similar to The Matrix where any person could be working on behalf of the gods. As I mentioned, Hercules and Xena have tons of canon that various stories/mechanics could be based on.

All in all, I appreciate the relative normality of this idea. No cliched "fallen son of the gods" character, no amazing innate abilities. You get an ordinary person in a remote time (to make it interesting), who shares the same pains as everyone else (angry at the unfairness of the gods), who decides to try and fight back. They don't have any special abilities to start with, but they eventually learn and develop skills until they become great warriors (you know, DEVELOPMENT, what RPGs are supposed to be about). If game developers insist on following formulas, this one has a lot of potential.

I want this game.

Thanks man, I've actually been thinking about that luck mechanic for a while when playing games. It would make it like an action movie where the hero is incredibly luck and talented. It really doesn't make sense to take 30+ bullets and stabs.

Back on topic. I really like the discussion going on here. Maybe the Escapist community should get together and make an impressive and innovative game. (And will probably fail like Psychonauts)

Mass Effect did a good job with their aliens, I really loved the Quarians. But fantasy is locked in some pretty bad tropes at the moment...

You almost always have...

- The Pretty Etherial Race
- The Surly Short Race
- The Ugly Evil Race

EDIT:

I actually thought Final Fantasy XII had a fairly original Fantasy setting, with a high focus on politics, militarism and ancient mythology coupled with its Star Wars Like Airships and Races, as well as its interesting approach to magic. (fuck you Kung-Fu Grip, FFXII had a subtle and sophisticated narrative, unlike every other entry in the series)

I actually did love that game. Besides the many humanoid aliens, they were all unique in their own way. I'm hoping the sequel makes more unique races.

 

[Orion Magus]

Personally I like the D&D high fantasy settings. While true that planescape broke away from the usual races, it was still set in the same D&D cosmology. I found that one of the things that made the game great for me was my prior knowladge of the planes and there inhabitants.

As for Biowares new dragonage game, I'm actually a little nervouse that it won't be takeing place in the forgotten realms.