Why didn't you use a phoenix down?
- Thread starter MCDeltaT
- Start date
Recommended Videos
People keep obsessing over this whole thing in FF7, when even as a kid I was unconvinced in any relationship they had. A tank protecting a Healer in WoW has more romance than Cloud and Aeris. In the game, it basically tells you that Cloud loves Aeris because he effin' does. there is no hint to them both being attracted to each other, they basically spontaneously hold hands and talk about shit. Even if I could buy their relationship together, I can still not relate to Cloud in any way. He's annoying, basically a piece of cardboard, and once Aeris finally gets screwed in the chest, He grabs her corpse and starts whining to Sephiroth about his feelings instead of going on a godamned rampage throughout the game for killing his friend...Yeah, that's what it should have been. They should have been friends. Tifa was the one constantly standing by Cloud's side, they should have been the love story throughout the whole thing. Wouldn't that make much more sense? She would have made a man out of him.
As for the whole 'killing off Aeris', it totally comes out of nowhere, and completely shocking. but for all the wrong reasons. At the time, we had no idea what was going on and thought she was going insane. We then see her praying there for some reason and gets run through by the most impractical katana I have seen. there's bright pearly altars and floating stair steps, it was more surreal than anything. If you want a good death scene then
*Spoiler*
In Final Fantasy Tactics (the last good final fantasy game) Ramza and Delita are off to save Delita's sister, a commoner that was mistaken for a noble and kidnapped for leverage. Ramza joins because Delita could basically be considered his brother since they were raised together and Teta in turn, his sister. after facing down the Corpse brigade and defeating Wiegraf, they reach the fort where she's being held to see Ramza's brother Zalbag and cavalry arriving. Who then orders to shoot Teta and then captor. Algus (the shooter) then tells Ramza that the nobles didn't care for such commoners and that they killed her to save face. Ramza and Delita then go and fucking massacre Algus (fun fact: in the battle, Teta's body is still on the map, but won't resurect if you try a life spell or phoenix down). That death had reason, it was a very sadistic and brutal reason, but a reason nonetheless. We see later that Aeris casted the spell, so her death was just to prevent people from knowing what the hell was going on until the next 2 discs.
As for the whole 'killing off Aeris', it totally comes out of nowhere, and completely shocking. but for all the wrong reasons. At the time, we had no idea what was going on and thought she was going insane. We then see her praying there for some reason and gets run through by the most impractical katana I have seen. there's bright pearly altars and floating stair steps, it was more surreal than anything. If you want a good death scene then
*Spoiler*
In Final Fantasy Tactics (the last good final fantasy game) Ramza and Delita are off to save Delita's sister, a commoner that was mistaken for a noble and kidnapped for leverage. Ramza joins because Delita could basically be considered his brother since they were raised together and Teta in turn, his sister. after facing down the Corpse brigade and defeating Wiegraf, they reach the fort where she's being held to see Ramza's brother Zalbag and cavalry arriving. Who then orders to shoot Teta and then captor. Algus (the shooter) then tells Ramza that the nobles didn't care for such commoners and that they killed her to save face. Ramza and Delita then go and fucking massacre Algus (fun fact: in the battle, Teta's body is still on the map, but won't resurect if you try a life spell or phoenix down). That death had reason, it was a very sadistic and brutal reason, but a reason nonetheless. We see later that Aeris casted the spell, so her death was just to prevent people from knowing what the hell was going on until the next 2 discs.
I'd just like to point out that pheonix downs NEVER restore any charachters to life from death, they simply brought a wounded/unconcios party member back in to (barely)fighting condition.Jamboxdotcom said:
I never found the joke funny simply because the premise is so clearly flawed, if it were in a game where charachter explicitly die al la Dragon Quest it would make sense to say they should've used the appropriate item.
Irrelevent, all death spells do is reduce the targets health to zero, if you check the characters stats it will say something like Wounded or K.O, that said, you'd think petrifiying and then shattering someone in FFX would be a tad more permanent, in tyhat one they don't even need the pheonix down.Garak73 said:
I lol'd hard... Also I always preferred Tifa >_>D Moness said:I keep remembering this one. It annoyes me because i really dislike Tifa >.< (that is probbaly why i keep remembering it.
Also OP, this joke seems to be going to your head way too much. Just relax about it, it's kind of funny to think about it that way. It doesn't destroy the game or anything.
Except that it isn't. In Mass Effect 2 I didn't ask the question of why Jack didn't just get back up after having been practically melted by enemy ship fire when she always got back up after a fatal injury before. There is a huge separation between gameplay and story that doesn't exist in other mediums. If I'm reading a book and someone gets shot when we have something that could heal it, that is a plot hole. However, if said healing object is never once addressed in the narrative, it has no effect on it. If the game kills you, you can come back. If the story kills you, you're done. That's true in EVERY modern game that has deaths.KalosCast said:
Except that they aren't deaths in Mass Effect, you're just being wounded badly enough to be unable to fight. It's clearly established in the ME universe that when you die, you're dead. Shepard was a special case. An experimental, incredibly expensive, custom-tailored, "the machine got destroyed and that's why you can't use it again" special case.Wolfenbarg said:
There's the magic goo of medigel to bring up incapacitated squad members (I'm pretty sure that's the exact word they use) but that's well-established in the universe as being able to very quickly heal even very serious wounds. Whereas, when the ship gets lasered and the person in engineering dies, the ship computer reads no life-signs in engineering.
Sure, your squad-mates live through things that even kill people in the main plot... but that's why you're the one saving the universe. Is it good writing? No, not really, but at least they tried.
Hell, even if you do want to call it death "Bioware did it" doesn't make bad writing magically into good writing.
Your argument boils down to "it's not a plot hole because other games have the same plot hole" which doesn't even approach being a valid argument.
you, good sire, deserve a reward for this fine quality jest! i do believe a huzzah is in order!syrus27 said:
I think they should have worked phoenix downs into the story, KOs or not. Imagine if Cloud simply went "well I'll just use a phoenix down".... and it didn't work. Imagine him desperately holding one over her dead body, shouting "come back, come back!" or some such, I realize it wouldn't have really worked on the PS1 but, come on, wouldn't that be more emotional and make more sense? Especially if in a later battle with Sephiroth he said "oh, that, yeah, it was a new materia in my sword" or something. Would'a saved a lot of Webcomics.
If that is suddenly called bad writing, then practically every game that had the story call for a death has bad writing. It isn't even possible at this point for every gameplay mechanic to be part of the story. How often does a simple slash actually wound a character in gameplay? It lowers hitpoints, but it sure doesn't slow anyone down. However, once you get into a cutscene someone getting slashed is a serious injury. Unless we want developers to start telling stories in the same way Fable 2 does, this isn't bad writing. It's standard fare.KalosCast said:
The same reason why getting cut by a gigantic sword in the game doesn't kill you instantly in battle.
Gameplay is different from story. Story allows people to die, gameplay allows you to reload at the nearest checkpoint. Gameplay has phoenix downs, story has permanent deaths. It has been this way in gaming for aeons.
It's still pretty badly handled in RPGs like Final Fantasy though. Really, the whole "KOed" versus "killed" technicality argument doesn't work because it's called a Phoenix Down, not a Wake Up Potion. Phoenixes rise from the dead. Not from being tired on Sunday morning or getting punched out by Mike Tyson. From the dead.
So of course it's awkward. Of course people ruined this big emotional scene for themselves by thinking "they could just, you know, use this item". If it's set off this many reactions and it could've been avoided, then Square should change it for the next game. But do they? No. And there's my main problem with Square's design philosophy.
"If it's broken, don't fix it." Greeeat. See you in five years, when you're not selling as many copies of Androgynous Protagonist Fights Demons of Own Making for Redemption. Oh wait. I'm confused, that's right now, for a reason.
Rage aside, yes it's an overly common joke that's not so funny anymore. But it is recurring because this flaw keeps coming up in every FF game in which someone dies (in other words, every time). The joke isn't old, the flaw it's there to point out is. And therein lies my beef with the complaint.
Gameplay is different from story. Story allows people to die, gameplay allows you to reload at the nearest checkpoint. Gameplay has phoenix downs, story has permanent deaths. It has been this way in gaming for aeons.
It's still pretty badly handled in RPGs like Final Fantasy though. Really, the whole "KOed" versus "killed" technicality argument doesn't work because it's called a Phoenix Down, not a Wake Up Potion. Phoenixes rise from the dead. Not from being tired on Sunday morning or getting punched out by Mike Tyson. From the dead.
So of course it's awkward. Of course people ruined this big emotional scene for themselves by thinking "they could just, you know, use this item". If it's set off this many reactions and it could've been avoided, then Square should change it for the next game. But do they? No. And there's my main problem with Square's design philosophy.
"If it's broken, don't fix it." Greeeat. See you in five years, when you're not selling as many copies of Androgynous Protagonist Fights Demons of Own Making for Redemption. Oh wait. I'm confused, that's right now, for a reason.
Rage aside, yes it's an overly common joke that's not so funny anymore. But it is recurring because this flaw keeps coming up in every FF game in which someone dies (in other words, every time). The joke isn't old, the flaw it's there to point out is. And therein lies my beef with the complaint.
I'm pretty sure that death not actually killing can be hand waved when you consider how ridiculously the characters were jacked up on Materia. It made them strong enough to withstand death and only got knocked out instead? I don't know, but that will do.
If nothing else the death is pretty much also a depiction of how strong Sephiroth is at that point relative to the main party. He can actually kill someone. So it subverts the *main party can't die* idea purely because he is THAT STRONG.
If nothing else the death is pretty much also a depiction of how strong Sephiroth is at that point relative to the main party. He can actually kill someone. So it subverts the *main party can't die* idea purely because he is THAT STRONG.