Why do I hate Neverwinter Nights 2?

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Abedeus

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How about NwN1's multiplayer? Are there any good servers left? I would reinstall it and check, but I'd have to install the game, patch up, find English dialog.tlk, patch again (because I don't know if there is a Polish 1.69) and it would take at least 2 hours.
 

Zykon TheLich

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They made the graphics better and then ripped out the gameplay and any decent story: 'you are the cosen one...' Genius.

Plus my copy of the the original campaign and the expansion both get stuck about 2/3 of the way through so I haven't completed either and didn't bother picking up the 3rd because of this.
 

Baby Tea

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The_Toe_Bighter98 said:
Another point, the last one, it's made by Obsidian. Obsidian, who are the parasitic lamprey living off whatever Bioware produces. Cant wait for their remake of Dragon Age's engine, just like I cant wait for their Mass Effect clone /sarcasm.
This is really the biggest point, for me.

I enjoyed NWN2, actually.
Was it better then NWN1? No.
Was it better then Baldur's Gate? Absolutely not (I like BG way better then NWN1).
But it was alright.

But Obsidian just butchers every games sequel they scrape together with the leftovers of the western RPG juggernaut: Bioware.

KOTOR 1? Awesome.
KOTOR 2? Not nearly as good, crappy ending.

NWN 1? Awesome.
NWN 2? Not nearly as good, crappy ending.

I'm glad Bioware is developing their own intellectual property so that Obsidian can't jump in to ruin the sequels. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are all Bioware and that is what they'll stay, I hope.
 

Heartless_Chaos

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I pretty much agree with most thats been said, NWN2 basically took what made NWN1, tried to change it and ended up screwing it up.

A lot of the things like the new classes, the new skills, races, subraces and abilities, feats have all been done and seen before in NWN1, there are a lot of HAKs available for NWN1 what add a ton of new features in a similar manner, in some cases, even presented better than NWN2.

Yes... NWN2's graphics look nicer, but is it really worth it? Personally, NWN1's graphics we're good enough for me, some of the HAKs gave -beautiful- looking tilesets for area builders to use, lush mountain ranges and waterfalls etc, all coming together very nicely.

There are few NWN2 multiplayer mods' because its not multiplayer friendly, where NWN1 was. Currently, NWN1 is a dieing game, only its RP modules really keep it alive and its dwindled down to having only 5-6 Modules with a decent playerbase, the rest lucky to get more than 10 players. Of course, the Social servers have become more and more active and become more heavily RP based.

Until NWN2 ever becomes more multiplayer friendly, its unlikely that the game will ever really take off, most NWN players are more likely waiting for an "NWN3" or a viable alternative that can give them the same experience they had on NWN1, just enhanced.
-

Lastly... Abedus, heh.

Even in NWN1, Bards made powerful Melee builds, Strength or Dex. based, their spells and singing abilities help dramatically and they can usually out-melee Fighters/WM's/Barbarians/etc with relative ease, of course, this comes with higher levels, usually 11-14+, they suck at first but can still be useful. I suggest experimenting around with them a little more, I however have no clue what they are like in NWN2.
 

Jinx_Dragon

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I never finished it on learning just how the thing ended. If the developers are going to screw over the players like that hten I won't entertain them by playing their game. I wasn't impressed with computer based RPGs in the first place as they are too limiting, simply if I can't climb over that three foot fence then I am going to lose interest very fast. These games always follow the same story line anyway, very few RPGs ever let you truly be evil, and normally in the last quarter of the game nothing you did in the first three quarters matters the slightest.

Don't know, maybe table top RPing ruined the whole genre for me.
 

Baby Tea

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Heartless_Chaos said:
Until NWN2 ever becomes more multiplayer friendly, its unlikely that the game will ever really take off, most NWN players are more likely waiting for an "NWN3" or a viable alternative that can give them the same experience they had on NWN1, just enhanced.
Dragon Age! There IS a sweet alternative!
Bioware...I love thee.
 

Jandau

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Dec 19, 2008
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While I agree about points one and three and can't really comment on four, I generally disagree about the Bard and I'd say you just suck at the game if you managed to get stuck on the first battle after the tutorial. Okay, maybe "suck" is the wrong word, but in any case, you're doing it wrong.

Bards are a perfectly good class. A single class Bard works just fine. Grab whatever buffs you can, pick up Lingering Song and go to town. Also, in MotB Bards get one of the most powerful abilities in the game, Hymn of Requiem.
 

Quick Ben

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I think NWN2 was decent. I had fun with it, even though it could have ben way better.
There is certainly no reason to hate it.
And don't bash Obsidian for KOTOR 2; it's not their fault. Blame LucasArts who rushed the release and prevented Obsidian from releasing a patch with all the content that didn't get finished in time.
Even in that state it got released in I still think it rivals KOTOR 1
 

iain62a

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I finished the game on hard with a longsword wielding aasimar bard, so I didn't find bards underpowered at all, like they were in NWN1
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Abedeus said:
See here's the problem, to be Arcane Archer, one of the few sensible combinations with Bard, you have to be elf or half-elf. I enjoy playing human bards. And I really like roleplaying them, so it was very hard for me - have a good character to roleplay, and to whack monsters.

Videot - what about multiplayer? Is it worth playing?
I dunno, multiclassing as a red dragon disciple isn't the WORST choice you can make. At least it gives you betters saving throws and HP and whatnot. I tried playing as a bard the first time I picked up the game and it just seemed impossible. Even when I would survive a battle, being the "jack of all trades" class ensured I probably contributed the least out of anyone. The bard makes an excellent class to round out a party, but you don't really have MUCH of a party until several hours into the game, and even then picking the bard seems silly. In my playthrough that would have given me a fighter and a rogue, meaning our outright combat prowess was fairly bad and making most any encounter far harder than it needed to be.

I don't know if I can blame Bioware for that problem though; had they made the game suitable for bards and rogues the game would be far to easy for a fighter/barbarian style of character.
 

Abedeus

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See, here's the problem. Bard can be powerful (I know, because I've been playing arenas since... well, NwN servers started showing up), but only if you multiclass him with Warrior, Barbarian, Rogue (not so much), Assassin or Shadow Dancer. I'm not counting Pale Master, Weapon Master and RDD, because every class (well, melee at least) is uber with those classes.

I was talking about pure bards. They should've been a party support character. But who honestly would take a Bard into a team, when they have a Cleric or a Sorcerer? They can heal, buff and damage better than poor a Bard.
Baby Tea said:
Heartless_Chaos said:
Until NWN2 ever becomes more multiplayer friendly, its unlikely that the game will ever really take off, most NWN players are more likely waiting for an "NWN3" or a viable alternative that can give them the same experience they had on NWN1, just enhanced.
Dragon Age! There IS a sweet alternative!
Bioware...I love thee.
Dragon Age has a multiplayer? Then I'm in.
 

Kevvers

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People are ragging on the NWN2 story and the bugs... I agree to a certain extent but I think there are a lot rose-tinted glasses wearers out there.
The NWN OC was arguably much worse --
it was a 'when good paladins goes bad' schlockfest. Its level design was pretty poor... I mean in places in the Neverwinter wood there were just piles of skulls plonked on the ground around which would turn into Skeleton warriors when you went nearby... very imaginative. The 'creator races'... they were so meh.
It was only the user made modules (and HOTU) that were any good TBH -- cos it had that whole 'rest anywhere, anytime and get back all your spells/hitpoints' thing that made everything kindve dull (NWN2 OC had that too).
And as for bugs, don't forget the Invalid Character bug that meant your character/save game was screwed -- you couldn't get to Luskan, I think it even crashed multiplayer servers if an invalid character went on them... Bioware didn't fix that one for ages I remember --- my bro had to start over with his Bard, he was not happy!

OK enough playing devil's advocate...
 

NihilCredo

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First, my opinion on the game(s) in a nutshell:

- Neverwinter Nights 2 is a fantastic game *platform*. The D&D 3.5 world has never been put in polygons with as much quality, detail, and most importantly smoothness of gameplay. There are a few missing pieces (e.g. mounts) but by and large, it's an awesome software for which to write both a single-play adventure or a multi-player persistent world.
- The original campaign of NWN2 is cheesy pre-cooked more-of-the-same clichéd standard default unoriginal mass-produced high fantasy fare. While it does have its awesome moments (the trial was like a piece of a better game transplanted into the OC; and fighting a red dragon plus a tribe of fire giants at the same time *was* exhilarating), overall it is extremely forgottable in character, setting, story, and mood.
- Mask of the Betrayer is the best Forgotten Realms adventure I have ever played (yes, I played every version of BG and IWD as well as several mods). Among all RPGs I've played, I rank it on par with Vampire Bloodlines and second only to Planescape: Torment (probably the original Fallouts too, but I'm going to play them only in a few months). My advice is to skip the original campaign and just straight up play MotB and enjoy the amazingness. EDIT: That is, assuming you aren't new to D&D and won't get overwhelmed by starting with all the abilities of a Level 21 character.


Now, as for playing a Bard, I played through both games with a melee Bard build that I found on GameFAQ. I strongly recommend it to pretty much everyone since it's very easy to play, rounds up a party well by providing both the warrior and a semi-healer option, and is just overall incredibly powerful. Most importantly, though, it has plenty of skill points and a high Charisma, so it makes for a great main character since it handles dialogue just like a Bard should.

If you pay attention to the requirements you can easily fiddle with the numbers a bit to account for your preference, without losing much effectiveness (for example, I didn't want a 'dull' character and raised Wis to 10 even though it's not really needed). I also *think* (although I'm not sure, it's been a year since I touched D&D) that it can be built without need for the Blackguard levels, therefore allowing a good character. But I could very well be wrong.

Here it is (credit to randomsome1):

E) BadBard Bard16/Blackguard3/Fighter1, Human, evil, non lawful

BadBard is a solid bard build that relies on pre-battle buffs. He acts
as a strong fighter in full plate and shield, that can also support his
friends with solid skills, bardic auras, and spell buffs. He gets very
high saving throw bonuses thanks to the blackguard levels.
He does not use many spells in battle due to his armor. However, he
gets Curse Song which is the most powerful debuff spell in the game!
In addition, Divine Shield greatly increases AC temporarily, as needed, and
a few spells are castable even in armor, such as Displacement and Darkness.

He is easy to level, since he is STR-based, uses plate and gains
the ability to use it early on.

In my experience, "caster bards" are just plain bad. They need to be in
battle for their auras and curse song to work well with others.
They dont have enough casts per day to buff parties AND cast offensively.
Besides, 1 area effect spellcast, and ALL the enemies charge you anyways...

str 16 +5levelup = 21
dex 12
con 14
int 10
wis 8
cha 16

1 bard - evil, nonlawful. Natural Leader background.
Take Luck of Heroes and Power Attack feats.
2 fighter - Cleave feat. Gains wpn/armor feats free.
3 bard - wpn focus: whatever
4 bard
5 bard
6 bard - Curse Song
7 bard
8 bard - [Ensure 5 HIDE skill here!]
9 Blackguard - practiced caster
10 BG (gains massive saves bonus)
11 BARD (NOT BG!!!)
12 BG - Divine Shield feat - MUST be taken exactly at 3rd BG level.
13 bard
14 bard
15 bard - extend spell
16 bard
17 bard
18 bard - Choose:Toughness,PowerCrit, or Lingering Song
19 bard
20 bard

Feat Choices: Lingering Song is mainly used for Curse Song extension.
Most other bardsongs are pretty weak.
PowerCrit is ok, but not really that necessary. Good if you used a
scimitar or rapier.
Toughness is +20 HP. Always a nice boost. I don't see a clear preference.


Skill choices:
you have 165 skillpoints.
Maximize tumble for +2ac, avoid attk of opp.
Maximize Perform for maximum Curse Song debuff
Take 5 HIDE for Blackguard prerequisite.
UMD for device usage would be very nice.
Some lore is convenient since you get +16 for being a bard anyways.
Rogue openlock,disarm trap is handy, but are cross skills so you can
only get 11 ranks (instead of 23)

Spells:
You have to take off armor/shield to cast most of these.
Hence, use only buff/utility spells. Consider a mithril shield so you
do not have to remove the shield also.

My recommended list:
1: identify, dispel lesser, cure light wnds, amplify
2: Heroism!, mirror image, ghostly visage, darkness(Castable in Armor!)
3: See Invis, Haste(extend it), Find Traps, Displacement(castable in armor)
4: Greater Invis maybe, Warcry?(extend), Neut Poison, Freedom Movement
5: ethereal visage(extend), greater Heroism, mass cure light wnds, dispel
6: (used only for extending 5th lvl spells mainly)
take Energy Immunity(situational), mass charm(castable in armor!)

Bulls str is nice, but by the time you get it, you probably dont need it.
(can use the low duration Blackguard version if REALLY needed)

Combat "Spell": Curse Song. 16 uses per day.
At lvl16, 30 perform it hits all baddies in decent area for:
-2ab
-3dmg
-3saves
20 sonic dmg.
-5 AC!!

No saving throw allowed, which makes for a VERY powerful debuff spell.

Combat spell #2: Divine Shield. 6 to 12 uses per day.
Gain CHA bonus to dodge AC for CHA bonus rounds.
You want to grab a +CHA item as soon as possible, as it makes the shield
very powerful, plus pumps spellcasting, AND adds +saving throw bonus.

Other combat spells: Darkness, Mass Charm, Displacement.
(all are non-somatic and castable in armor)

Weapon Choice: Doesn't really matter all that much. I would go with
1hander+shield personally. Scimitar,longsword,warhammer are best.

AB = 16bab +5str +3aura +1leader +1focus = 26.
(+4 greater heroism, +1haste, +5 curse song effectively)

AC = 10 +2tumble +8plate +2shield +1dex +1luck = 24
(plus 4bard aura if needed, +up to 9 from divine shield, and
effectively 2 from curse song)



UPGRADE:
--------

There are lots of ways to go with this build.

Going from 16bard to 21 would let you pick up Hymm of Requiem which is pretty
strong, as well as pump up your auras and songs.

Some more fighter levels would add bonus feats that would be promoted to epic.
You won't easily be able to hit Greater/Epic weapon focus, so I would avoid
trying for it.

4 levels of RDD would also be an ideal way to cheaply gain some nice bonuses.

So, I would plan to go 21bard,2fighter,3BG,4RDD as this scores a good balance
of these different upgrade paths. You have enhanced bard casting, Hymm,
auras, and plenty of skillpoints to use. 4 RDD adds +4STR,+2AC which is solid,
and the 1 fighter level adds 1 bonus epic feat.

NOTE: This will impact your BAB bringing you down to 23BAB max.

Another plan is to stay 16bard,3BG, then add 7 fighter and 3 NW9, which keeps
a high 26BAB for 6 attacks.