Why do people care about piracy?

[Alar]

Technically it's stealing, which is illegal in all civilized countries.

Stealing music is the same as stealing a CD player. They should be in jail...

Piracy bothers me because I see it as theft. I would not want to be robbed on a business or personal level, so why is it right that I steal from people I don't know? Just because this crime is widespread and goes almost entirely unpunished does not make it acceptable.

didnt you learn in school stealing is wrong?

Piracy is not stealing or theft. Please can people stop saying that it is.

Yes, but it is nearly the same as theft. You are taking what essentially amounts to a copy of someone else's work. This may be a poor metaphor, but imagine going into an art gallery where an artist has up his latest piece. You take a picture of this, input it into your painting printer machine, and voila! You have your own, which you then hang up in your house. You did not pay the artist to put his painting in your house, ergo he feels a little screwed over. Sure, he still has the original painting, but what the hell, man?

 

[zehydra]

"but isn't REAL art about the message and enjoyment of the viewers, not the money?"

yes, but the RIAA isn't about art. It's about publishing it.

 

[Duskflamer]

I skipped past some of the last few posts but I wanted to comment on something:

In a truly capitalistic society, Housebroken Lunatic's arguing that Piracy is superior and companies are just unwilling to admit that they're obsolete would be completely correct.

Here's the thing though, in a truly capitalistic society, the companies wouldn't be able to do anything about piracy. The entire concept of patents, copyrights, and intellectual property run contrary to capitalistic ideals, as they prevent someone who could do the same thing, but better, from acting on that claim, whereas in a truly capitalistic society that "someone" would be perfectly free to reproduce whatever the "thing" is, and the market would decide who did it better, and who gets money from it.

The United States, as you may have gathered by now, is not a truly capitalistic society. My understanding is that it's the most capitalistic society, but between the above-mentioned items and various industry regulations, it's impossible to say that it's truly capitalist.

So, returning to the concept at hand, it's clear that Housebroken Lunatic idealizes a purely capitalistic society, in which he would be 100% correct in such statements as piracy simply being an innovation and artists not having the right to earn money from their art, however the reality in America is that various copyright and intellectual property laws mean that piracy is comparable (not the same but comparable) to grand theft, and that artists have the right to say "If you want to listen to my music, you have to pay me money."

Is this an ideal system? Well no, no system is truly ideal, though I'd argue that a purely capitalist society would not last long, by virtue of there being no (short-term) economic incentives to, oh, figuring out ways to quit dumping so much pollution into the air and water, activities that may well have killed off America by now if innovations in such techniques had not been mandated by the government.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Leonardo DaVinci demanded to be paid every time someone wanted him to paint something. Why? Because money is required for that whole "food and shelter" thing that really helps with survival. Musicians are the same way, as are film makers, actors, and game developers.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Leonardo DaVinci demanded to be paid every time someone wanted him to paint something. Why? Because money is required for that whole "food and shelter" thing that really helps with survival. Musicians are the same way, as are film makers, actors, and game developers.

Leonardo Da Vinci did NOT however, demand that people copying his work to be punished with unreasonable fines or otherwise try to enforce control over works that he had already been paid for and sold. So your comparison is just plain ridiculous

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I skipped past some of the last few posts but I wanted to comment on something:

In a truly capitalistic society, Housebroken Lunatic's arguing that Piracy is superior and companies are just unwilling to admit that they're obsolete would be completely correct.

Here's the thing though, in a truly capitalistic society, the companies wouldn't be able to do anything about piracy. The entire concept of patents, copyrights, and intellectual property run contrary to capitalistic ideals, as they prevent someone who could do the same thing, but better, from acting on that claim, whereas in a truly capitalistic society that "someone" would be perfectly free to reproduce whatever the "thing" is, and the market would decide who did it better, and who gets money from it.

The United States, as you may have gathered by now, is not a truly capitalistic society. My understanding is that it's the most capitalistic society, but between the above-mentioned items and various industry regulations, it's impossible to say that it's truly capitalist.

So, returning to the concept at hand, it's clear that Housebroken Lunatic idealizes a purely capitalistic society, in which he would be 100% correct in such statements as piracy simply being an innovation and artists not having the right to earn money from their art, however the reality in America is that various copyright and intellectual property laws mean that piracy is comparable (not the same but comparable) to grand theft, and that artists have the right to say "If you want to listen to my music, you have to pay me money."

Is this an ideal system? Well no, no system is truly ideal, though I'd argue that a purely capitalist society would not last long, by virtue of there being no (short-term) economic incentives to, oh, figuring out ways to quit dumping so much pollution into the air and water, activities that may well have killed off America by now if innovations in such techniques had not been mandated by the government.

Im not in fact idealizing a truly capitalistic society. (im not a capitalist myself)

It's just that too many people often try to use capitalistic ideals to support their arguments AGAINST piracy, saying shit like the "free" market is going to crash and burn if we let internet pirates get away with their "horrible crimes", when there is in fact NO SUPPORT WHAT SO EVER in the capitalistic ideals for arbitrary copyright laws.

So it's pretty much a way to safeguard my points from liberalist pundits with dreams of becoming masters of industry who are somehow ALWAYS attracted to this sort of discussion.

 

[Duskflamer]

-snip snip-

Im not in fact idealizing a truly capitalistic society. (im not a capitalist myself)

It's just that too many people often try to use capitalistic ideals to support their arguments AGAINST piracy, saying shit like the "free" market is going to crash and burn if we let internet pirates get away with their "horrible crimes", when there is in fact NO SUPPORT WHAT SO EVER in the capitalistic ideals for arbitrary copyright laws.

So it's pretty much a way to safeguard my points from liberalist pundits with dreams of becoming masters of industry who are somehow ALWAYS attracted to this sort of discussion.

I find it hard to believe you'd be arguing about this so fiercely if you didn't hold such capitalist ideals, but I guess it's not my place to judge that.

On the topic of "Piracy will collapse the industry" though, I do feel the need to point out Flash games. Free to the public, most money made from them is through advertisements, and while not as large in scale for the most part, I've seen plenty of flash games that rival the AAA average for depth.

What we would lose is the AAA industry of big-budget blockbuster games, there wouldn't be anyone willing to back such big-budget games. So that would leave us with indie-level titles, and you have to admit some damn impressive stuff has come out of the indie scene in recent years, while a majority of the AAA industry has been pumping out the bland and predictable (occasional gems such as Mass Effect nonwithstanding), so I would hardly see such a development as a bad thing.

The chances of that scenario happening are slim, but I wouldn't see it as a bad thing.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

Technically it's stealing, which is illegal in all civilized countries.

Stealing music is the same as stealing a CD player. They should be in jail...

Piracy bothers me because I see it as theft. I would not want to be robbed on a business or personal level, so why is it right that I steal from people I don't know? Just because this crime is widespread and goes almost entirely unpunished does not make it acceptable.

didnt you learn in school stealing is wrong?

Piracy is not stealing or theft. Please can people stop saying that it is.[/quote]

Exactly unless you take the original file or object but since it's spread across cyberspace it's just mere infinite copies that people claim to buy for it's no different from free copies.[/quote]
What a nice paper-thin justification you got there.

here's an example to contradict it. Bootleg movies. It's not theft/piracy as long as I'm not taking the film itself out of the projection room and selling that? What a joke.

At the end of the day, it's intellectual property that you are taking without paying for. People wanna get paid, and you're too lazy/cheap to do it. Just because it's a copy doesn't mean it no longer represents the original product.[/quote]

Technically it's stealing, which is illegal in all civilized countries.

Stealing music is the same as stealing a CD player. They should be in jail...

Piracy bothers me because I see it as theft. I would not want to be robbed on a business or personal level, so why is it right that I steal from people I don't know? Just because this crime is widespread and goes almost entirely unpunished does not make it acceptable.

didnt you learn in school stealing is wrong?

Piracy is not stealing or theft. Please can people stop saying that it is.

Exactly unless you take the original file or object but since it's spread across cyberspace it's just mere infinite copies that people claim to buy for it's no different from free copies.

What a nice paper-thin justification you got there.

here's an example to contradict it. Bootleg movies. It's not theft/piracy as long as I'm not taking the film itself out of the projection room and selling that? What a joke.

At the end of the day, it's intellectual property that you are taking without paying for. People wanna get paid, and you're too lazy/cheap to do it. Just because it's a copy doesn't mean it no longer represents the original product.

Technically it's stealing, which is illegal in all civilized countries.

Stealing music is the same as stealing a CD player. They should be in jail...

Piracy bothers me because I see it as theft. I would not want to be robbed on a business or personal level, so why is it right that I steal from people I don't know? Just because this crime is widespread and goes almost entirely unpunished does not make it acceptable.

didnt you learn in school stealing is wrong?

Piracy is not stealing or theft. Please can people stop saying that it is.

Exactly unless you take the original file or object but since it's spread across cyberspace it's just mere infinite copies that people claim to buy for it's no different from free copies.

What a nice paper-thin justification you got there.

here's an example to contradict it. Bootleg movies. It's not theft/piracy as long as I'm not taking the film itself out of the projection room and selling that? What a joke.

At the end of the day, it's intellectual property that you are taking without paying for. People wanna get paid, and you're too lazy/cheap to do it. Just because it's a copy doesn't mean it no longer represents the original product.

Why on earth you would want to contradict me i don't know why since i never said i go by that logic so please don't go around slapping people without asking what their actual view is.

 

[Chemical Alia]

"Wake up, sheeple!!! Stop drinking the corporate kool-aid, man!!!"

Sorry, your argument is honestly too retarded and obviously troll-bait to even take seriously. And I know better than to try to have a meaningful and productive argument on an internet forum, even when the other side isn't spouting paragraph after paragraph of tl;dr nonsense. If you just came out and admitted you pirate products because you want free things, I'd at least respect your honesty. But you've managed to construct a position where you not only get all the free stuff you want, but end up enlightened and ethically superior to everyone else. Give me a break.

Oh I get it, you're just pissed because you can't come up with any arguments that point out any inconsistencies or flaws in mine, and thus your only solution is the immature one:

Namely calling me retarded, dishonest, a liar and a troll. (despite not having the least bit of evidence to back these accusations up).

Oh well, perhaps you'll grow up someday too.

Also, why would I ever admit to committing internet piracy on a forum driven by such oppressive and censorhappy moderators that they actually give warnings and ban users for giving that kind of admissions? Please, im a lot smarter than that.

Your argument is just an opinion. An opinion that I'm completely opposed to, and that I find so radical, extreme, and out of touch with the way the music/game industries function, that there's nothing worth discussing. Most of what you said makes no sense and you contradict yourself. You've insulted my profession, my industry, and the purpose of my work, which, if I weren't nearly completely convinced that you're a troll having a laugh at this thread, I'd find disgusting. When you propose something that involves nearly everyone I know being put out of a job for no reason other than for you to get what you want, I lose respect for your argument.

You're welcome to your opinion, but you've stated nothing worth arguing meaningfully. Maybe someday you'll grow some integrity and find some respect for the hard work of others and some value in what they contribute.

 

[Signa]

Why is it that no one here can have a calm, rational discussion about piracy and how it affects the world? What the hell is with all this finger pointing and name calling? At this point I call for a lock on this thread if people can't be civil.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Do you want to explain to me exactly what the differnce is between downloading a game you have the ability to buy and stealing a game from a shop you have the ability to buy?

You're right, it's not theft in any legal sense. But that's what it is.

The difference is that one copy of that game is added to the market in the case of piracy, while no copies enter or leave the market in the case of theft (well, unless it's a laundering scheme, but that doesn't apply here).

Individually, it's easy to write off the difference as being insignificant, but in practice, it behaves quite differently than actual theft when done on a large scale (and software piracy is HUGE. A global occurrence in many cases), because it tampers with the supply and demand curves DIRECTLY (sometimes with odd, unforeseen circumstances like mass-publicity).

It's just economics.

 

[fletch_talon]

Seems to me that some advocates of piracy (the "art for art's sake" group) are a tad jealous of artists/programmers/etc. for being able to make a living off their creations.

Creating something to be distributed to the public, is work, it doesn't matter if you enjoy it, its still work. People should be able to request payment for their work (whether they get paid is dependant on whether people want what they're offering).

And yet some people here, seem to think that just because some creations are easier to copy than others, that some creators are more deserving of payment than others.

The current system of selling copies is the only way game designers can make money of their hard work. Work that is every bit as time consuming as serving customers or pushing papers, lawyering or doctoring.
The only other possibility is for game designers to be paid for their work alone. And yet where would the money come from? Publishers wouldn't exist to buy/fund games because they'd have no income because apparently the consumer shouldn't have to pay for games.

I think some people here need to fuck off back to their imagnary world where people can work 9-5 and come home to work on the oh so fun "hobby" of creating high quality full length videogames with no hope of financial return.

 

[spades3]

Dude, it's stealing. If you steal an album online, it's the same as stealing one off the shelf at Wal-Mart. Theft is theft, and if he stole the music, he should be charged with stealing the music! The means by which he stole it doesn't change the fact that he stole it.

 

[BelfastSpartan]

Due to no link there's no evidence as to how many songs or to what extent he pirated music.

However taking it literally as 'a few' songs as in 3.
Say he were to buy it off itunes for $0.99 per song that's $2.97.
Record company probably makes $2 of that the artist for discussion sake makes 97 cents.

Neither amount will make or break the company or the artist, it's not even pocket change compared to what they make on a daily basis! Yet the fine applied to a college student has essentially ruined his life! If he were to break into someones house and steal their ipod/50 cds then sell the items on, he would get maybe a few thousand dollar fine, possibly a few months in jail!
So personally I don't believe the punishment fits the crime.

 

[bluepilot]

The music industry overcharged for years and then failed to take advantage of the new technological advances that accompanied it. They also started to reply more on pre-packaged music deals (which all sound the same to me) and placed a hefty price tag for the privilege.

When everything is mass produced and easy to copy is it any surprise that people will want it for free. Video killed the radio star, DVD killed video, Internet killed DVD, and music , and games, and our concentration spans.

However, companies can make us pay by offering better services than the internet. I bought a DVD recently which came with a digital copy I could download from the internet (which had a 20 digit code....) but that was really nice. I did not have to illegally download my own digital copy because the company provided one with my purchase.

Also, if companies let us pay with paypal, coupons e.t.c rather than risk out credit cards, even better. I love itunes because I can use a pre-paid coupon.

However, I bought an app, and the data on my iphone got deleted (toilet accident) and they will not replace the app for free even though I bought it already. They said `you should have backed up the data`, but dude, my iphone fell down the toilet, I am not about to stick it into my computer`. That really annoys me, that is BAD BAD BAD customer service apple. Am I going to buy an app again...no....

Also, not allowing flash player means I am switching to android next time.

You know, if would have a much easier time handing over my money if companies were nicer to me...just saying...bad customer service is a great way to drive people to illegal channels.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Leonardo DaVinci demanded to be paid every time someone wanted him to paint something. Why? Because money is required for that whole "food and shelter" thing that really helps with survival. Musicians are the same way, as are film makers, actors, and game developers.

Leonardo Da Vinci did NOT however, demand that people copying his work to be punished with unreasonable fines or otherwise try to enforce control over works that he had already been paid for and sold. So your comparison is just plain ridiculous

His work also wasn't copied very often when he was alive, so it's kind of a moot point.