Why do people care so much about storylines?
- Thread starter Velocity Eleven
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Velocity Eleven said:
Alright! Enough! I can't take it anymore!Josdeb said:
People, please, are you just not very observant? This is a discussion that has gone far beyond the first page and I think we all need to take a good look at what's going on. This guy isn't asking for people to flame him and tell him he's a troll. This guy wants to actually understand why we think games with better story and worse gameplay are still good. If you had read the thread through before commenting (or paid proper attention) then you would know this guy works in math. Math is what he gets, so arguments in emotional context are going to fall short.
First, I want to thank Josdeb for making easily the coolest equation I have ever seen. This will easily get my point (and I believe all our points) across very accurately with a little modification. So just to get out the base equation (with modification) we'll get this:
(Characters + Plot + Development) * (Graphics + Music + Atmosphere) * (Controls + Challenge + Replayability) = Enjoyment Score
For those confused, Development means the development of both the characters and the plot with twists and surprise endings, as well as realistic emotions and such. So basically, we get the three most contested scores for a game: story, graphics and gameplay.
Now, the one thing I would like to add is that not everyone has the same preferance in a game. A game can be good, but this is the Enjoyment Score we're trying to get, not an overall, unbias opinion of how well these three elements mix. So, we need some way to express that. I propose variables that can modify each depending on how much a person enjoys a certain main aspect (story, graphics and gameplay) of the game. So our equation becomes this:
(Characters + Plot + Development)X * (Graphics + Music + Atmosphere)Y * (Controls + Challenge + Replayability)Z = Enjoyment Score
Now, for simplicity sake, you would put each category at a rating of 3, 2 and 1 depending on what you enjoy most about a game.
Now, to give some scope on how this works out, let's say we have four games and their scores work out to this:
Game #1- (9 + 9 + 9)X * (1 + 1 + 1)Y * (1 + 1 + 1)Z = Enjoyment Score
Game #2- (1 + 1 + 1)X * (1 + 1 + 1)Y * (9 + 9 + 9)Z = Enjoyment Score
Game #3- (1 + 1 + 1)X * (9 + 9 + 9)Y * (1 + 1 + 1)Z = Enjoyment Score
Game #4- (5 + 5 + 5)X * (5 + 5 + 5)Y * (5 + 5 + 5)Z = Enjoyment Score
Now, we need a few gamers to test these games out. Let's take yourself (Velocity Eleven) and Josdeb as our gamers. So, Velocity Eleven would obviously prefer games with more gameplay, so that would be his highest preferance (3), and we'll take story as your second highest (2) because I've never seen you once say anything about graphics, which will be your lowest (1). Josdeb will be ordered story (3), gameplay (2), graphics (1) as that seems to be the kind of guy he is. So when we plug in these numbers we get this:
Velocity Eleven
Game #1- (9 + 9 + 9)2 * (1 + 1 + 1)1 * (1 + 1 + 1)3 = 36 + 3 + 9 = 48
Game #2- (1 + 1 + 1)2 * (1 + 1 + 1)1 * (9 + 9 + 9)3 = 6 + 3 + 81 = 90
Game #3- (1 + 1 + 1)2 * (9 + 9 + 9)1 * (1 + 1 + 1)3 = 6 + 18 + 3 = 27
Game #4- (5 + 5 + 5)2 * (5 + 5 + 5)1 * (5 + 5 + 5)3 = 30 + 15 + 45 = 90
Josdeb
Game #1- (9 + 9 + 9)3 * (1 + 1 + 1)1 * (1 + 1 + 1)2 = 81 + 3 + 6 = 90
Game #2- (1 + 1 + 1)3 * (1 + 1 + 1)1 * (9 + 9 + 9)2 = 9 + 3 + 36 = 48
Game #3- (1 + 1 + 1)3 * (9 + 9 + 9)1 * (1 + 1 + 1)2 = 6 + 18 + 3 = 27
Game #4- (5 + 5 + 5)3 * (5 + 5 + 5)1 * (5 + 5 + 5)2 = 45 + 15 + 30 = 90
Interesting how that worked, no? As you can see, Velocity Eleven obviously enjoyed the more gameplay oriented game and thought the story based one was alright, where as Josdeb found the gameplay one pretty drab and the story one really good. They both agreed that the graphically intense one was a bit of a let down. But now, here's the really cool part! They BOTH not only thought the game that evened out its elements equally was good, they scored it ON PAR with the game that emphasised their prefered element.
So, in conclusion, all three elements in balance are easily the best outcome, but games that focus on one element can still appeal to some gamers and not others.
Well, you are apparently the ONLY person who would (or at least a member of a very small minority.) You have extremely unusual tastes, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you're acting like it is somehow bizarre that that the rest of the world doesn't share your strange tastes.Velocity Eleven said:
Rainbow Six Vegas 1/2 has one of the dumbest storyline I have had to dealt with, yet I finished R6V2 multiple times (just did a 3 difficulty play through run last weekend); the game is so much fun that despite all the chattering and plot exposition, all I was looking forward was the next room to clear and trying out all of guns and gadgets to win the day.
Then there's borderlands and other games I can replay over and over again (just finished the last and hardest mission in Armored Core: For Answer), and if you ask me, I might have no idea what the whole vault thing as about in Borderlands or why some loons wanted to shoot down the cradles in AM:FA, all I know is I had fun killing, looting, upgrading, and killing some more while overcoming countless challenges and fun boss fights (4 NEXT vs moi in AM:FA is like eating needles).
Games are meant to be fun; you don't look for story (or history) while playing chess or soccer, I just wished games would be games and not interactive movies sometimes.
Then there's borderlands and other games I can replay over and over again (just finished the last and hardest mission in Armored Core: For Answer), and if you ask me, I might have no idea what the whole vault thing as about in Borderlands or why some loons wanted to shoot down the cradles in AM:FA, all I know is I had fun killing, looting, upgrading, and killing some more while overcoming countless challenges and fun boss fights (4 NEXT vs moi in AM:FA is like eating needles).
Games are meant to be fun; you don't look for story (or history) while playing chess or soccer, I just wished games would be games and not interactive movies sometimes.
Forgive me for not reading through this entire thread but it's HUGE!
Personally I love story in games, most of the time. There are loads of "casual games" I play over and over that have little to no plot that I play merely for the sake of the challenge of completing them yet again. BUT, I prefer for my long term playing interest to have a really good story. To me in THESE games gameplay is like the score or the shots in a movie. It's very interesting technically, but its not why I'm watching. So when I'm reccommending a game to a friend the only reason I mention the gameplay is if it's bad, or really hard to grasp, otherwise its just there doing its job. But that's just me.
One thing I have noticed among my friends is that story seems to be a bigger deal for girls than for boys, but as I said, among my friends probably not universally true
Personally I love story in games, most of the time. There are loads of "casual games" I play over and over that have little to no plot that I play merely for the sake of the challenge of completing them yet again. BUT, I prefer for my long term playing interest to have a really good story. To me in THESE games gameplay is like the score or the shots in a movie. It's very interesting technically, but its not why I'm watching. So when I'm reccommending a game to a friend the only reason I mention the gameplay is if it's bad, or really hard to grasp, otherwise its just there doing its job. But that's just me.
One thing I have noticed among my friends is that story seems to be a bigger deal for girls than for boys, but as I said, among my friends probably not universally true
This is a simple difference in perspective. If one examines the totality of unique gameplay in any number of very good games they will likely find only a few minutes (at best) of utterly unique things that are repeated time and again until the credits roll. In shorter games, this works perfectly fine by itself, and many an excellent game has been carried forth based purely on the strength of gameplay. And, while I consider these fundamental mechanics to be the most important thing in a game, gameplay alone is often not enough.Velocity Eleven said:
As the time I'm expected to spend with a game increases, eventually the joy of the underlying mechanics breaks down, and it is at this point that the story begins to matter. If the story is compelling enough, it can serve to drag the player on to the end of a game when the inherent fun of the mechanics has been exhausted.
That said, I will rarely suffer a game that makes common use of mechanics I simply do not like for the sake of the story - thus the reason I've never been able to finish a metal gear title. Story can be important but a game cannot hope to stand purely on this singular pilar and maintain my interest for long.
This is precisely the reason I rarely enjoy JRPGs. While there is often (at least it is often argued) a surprising layer of depth to these games, the core moment to moment gameplay generally involves doing precisely the same thing (or very close to the same thing) again and again for extended periods quickly eroding any entertainment inherent in the gameplay. Couple that with a story that I've heard before (and didn't like the first time around) and characters that are seemingly designed to agressively annoy me and you find a game that will not hold my interest beyond the first act or so.
Nnnnnno.Velocity Eleven said:
You're confusing a storytelling mechanic with the story itself. The words in a book and the way they're put together; that's the mechanic. The narrative that those words are trying to get across is the story. Words are a mechanic. Gameplay is a mechanic. What the author wants us to experience, or what the game developers are trying to get us to experience/accomplish; that's the story.
Playing a game for the gameplay is like reading a book and appreciating the words themselves; the depth of the langauge used, uniqueness of sentence structure and pacing, etc; the method used to tell the story. And that's cool. Good mechanics can lead to great narratives; good gameplay can lead to great games.
Reading a book for the story is like playing a game for the story.
Why do most of the games you play feature representations of people rather than simple color-coded geometric objects or abstract mathematical forms?Velocity Eleven said:
Think on this and the "story" thing will be pretty obvious.
-- Alex
yeah, thats what makes a gameSquid94 said:
this is definetly one of the easiest to understand posts on this threadHellsingerAngel said:
I wrote a chapter on this in my university project. Simple answer is that humans are not capible of producing maths the same way as computers are, no where near as advanced. it is far easier for the sake of human memory to be able to distinguish variables by a common name or visual. This is however also a downfall as people may associate a variable name with a certain distinct attribute, which if altered confuses players. If people were capible of the maths and logic that computers were in this regard, we would be able to play games in binary. The reason we dont is cause we can't read binary, at least not to that degreeAlex_P said:
Velocity Eleven, I think there is a good point under all this, but you ruin it by going too far in the opposite direction. Story and gameplay are both important, and some people favor one over the other. No one dislikes gameplay, and even if you put all the emphasis on story, you'd still rather play a game with better gameplay given two games with equally good stories.
You say that games and movies are different, but you don't offer any arguments or justification as to WHY. Why should games focus on gameplay any more than movies should focus on visuals? Someone could just as logically argue that if you want a story, you should just go read a book.
You say that games and movies are different, but you don't offer any arguments or justification as to WHY. Why should games focus on gameplay any more than movies should focus on visuals? Someone could just as logically argue that if you want a story, you should just go read a book.
Because good gaames with most good gameplay are only good when you have story line. imagin Halo without a story it would be like doom 1-2 but with aliens and awsome graphics
I would agree and I should agree but I've just played Heavy Rain so I can't.Velocity Eleven said:
But that's neither here nor there.
If it's an established franchise that is known for its story, the story should be fucking good.
If it's not, the game can easily fare without it, but if they do include a story and it suuucks, there better be a "skip cutscene" option.
Can you skip cutscenes if FF 7?
While you raise some good points, and I agree there needs to be balance between gameplay and story. Ideally all of these aspects should be good, however I think your disappointment boils down to one thing.
Also, do you go to movies just to see pictures move? No? Then you might want to clarify your statement about gameplay. Because there is always more than one aspect to every medium. Artwork needs to convey emotion and look good (in most cases), books need to hold the readers attention and have an interesting story and characters, and games need to have good gameplay, adequate story, acceptable graphics and a reason to spend upwards of $50 on them. Games, as an interactive form of storytelling and entertainment, have more aspects to keep track of, so cut the developers, and your story-loving and otherwise focused fellow gamers, some slack.
You've got tunnel vision, dude. This goes for the story-lovers too. And the people who want better characters, better voice acting, better graphics, insert other emphasis here, etc. If developers focus only on one aspect of the game too much, the rest of the game suffers for it. And making games takes time and time costs money. Even if you make the best game in the world, taking 7 years to make it means you've probably spent more money than you can earn back before you go bankrupt. Since consumers can no longer be satisfied with the texts screens at the beginning and end of a game for story, they have to spend more time on it. There will always be games that don't get the balance quite right, some do terribly and so will do pretty good. But people still played Just Cause and Metal Gear Solid 4. Admittedly, the latter had 3 games or more of suspense built up for the plot before it even released. Regardless, there will be games that you will like and games the story-lovers will like, and also games you may both decide are balanced enough that both of you can enjoy. All you have to do is accept that as long as it is important to somebody, game developers will likely spend time on it.Velocity Eleven said:
Also, do you go to movies just to see pictures move? No? Then you might want to clarify your statement about gameplay. Because there is always more than one aspect to every medium. Artwork needs to convey emotion and look good (in most cases), books need to hold the readers attention and have an interesting story and characters, and games need to have good gameplay, adequate story, acceptable graphics and a reason to spend upwards of $50 on them. Games, as an interactive form of storytelling and entertainment, have more aspects to keep track of, so cut the developers, and your story-loving and otherwise focused fellow gamers, some slack.