Why do people hate the army?
- Thread starter chiefohara
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Well, the beauty of having a big army is that negotiations get so much easier. If you negotiate from an equal or greater standing both parties of the negotiation knows that a violent solution will cost money, resources and lives on both sides. A treaty in this case would be more favourable than a war. The potential gain is probably bigger for war, yet the risk is bigger too. If one of the sides have a weak army and the other has a large army then the risk of a war is low and the gain is pretty big. While I don't like the necessity for an army, I can see it and I understand it.crazyarms33 said:
I can't say I blame your lack of faith in the human nature. Nature is violent all over. You'll meet a lot of those who are against war who keeps telling you animals aren't violent. that is a lie. A stable population is believed to have about 30-50% violent, greedy and/or selfish individuals. A population of pacifists isn't stable, nor is a population of fighters. War isn't human nature. It's simply nature. I don't like it, but I wont ever deny it.
I don't know if you're done or not, but just in case I want to thank you for a stimulating and friendly debate on this subject.
As a fellow german I have to point out that the democracy in Germany actually did last longer than 20 days after it was braught to this country in the late 1940s.Roggen Bread said:
A fact for which I am very thankful, I must say.
So, yeah, I do respect the army as an instrument that actually can bring peace and prosperity to a country.
And then there's that. I cannot really resent people who do not like the army.Roggen Bread said:
Yeah... I'm gonna go and sit in that hole.
Because that poor sumbitch was uselessly guarding a paddock full of animals for PETA? I honestly don't know, but I do know guys like that are more bored than I ever was guarding gates on training exercises for officers. Those motherfuckers just loved to waste my time.chiefohara said:That's a powerful image .... but why is there a lion eating a carcass in front of cattle in the left bottom corner of the photo?loc978 said:when it comes down to UN troops, well...
That pretty much says what needs to be said.
However, the ineffectiveness of the UN's overarching strategy doesn't negate the personal sacrifices people make on their behalf. I know that better than most, since I carry lifelong crippling wounds from training, yet the injuries I received in combat (in Iraq, which ranks pretty high among the most ridiculously immoral wars in recent history) have healed quite completely. Not for the UN, mind you... but I understand the sacrifice.
Honestly the only issue I've had with them, aside from the occasionaly hooting dickhole who treats their uniform like a criticism shield, is that when their fellows do really, really fuck up, there never seems to be a lot of 'This man/woman is a disgrace for what they did and we no longer want them' or an issue gets blown out of proportion before their commanding officers can investigate it propperly and all sorts of shit goes down.
That guy a while ago (I think he was a Marine) who for some reason videotaped himself pissing on corpses. Now, I dig this guy isn't gonna feel too charitable about the people trying to shoot him, blow him up etc. Fair enough, but would it have killed the Marine Corps PR unit to have released a statement saying that this behaviour is unacceptable from our Marines and it will be investigated?
That might have calmed waters and then let his Commanding officer tear about a million strips off his hide or hand him over to the Military Police for a formal investigation and given the impression that as a professional force, these frat-boy antics are to be kept to a minimum.
I suppose the other thing is that Australians are different, we tend to be more sombre about our Armed Forces. We've always been proud of them, but it never reaches the same level of flag waving that is stereotypically seen in our American cousins.
On a related note, knowing we have many service members here, any of you lads in the Marines in that unit headed for Darwin?
That guy a while ago (I think he was a Marine) who for some reason videotaped himself pissing on corpses. Now, I dig this guy isn't gonna feel too charitable about the people trying to shoot him, blow him up etc. Fair enough, but would it have killed the Marine Corps PR unit to have released a statement saying that this behaviour is unacceptable from our Marines and it will be investigated?
That might have calmed waters and then let his Commanding officer tear about a million strips off his hide or hand him over to the Military Police for a formal investigation and given the impression that as a professional force, these frat-boy antics are to be kept to a minimum.
I suppose the other thing is that Australians are different, we tend to be more sombre about our Armed Forces. We've always been proud of them, but it never reaches the same level of flag waving that is stereotypically seen in our American cousins.
On a related note, knowing we have many service members here, any of you lads in the Marines in that unit headed for Darwin?
I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.Zhukov said:
It's funny but I've been reading an awful lot of articles where the slaughter of civilians could hardly be considered "unintended".Sarge034 said:
Pretty much.
Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does. The soldier that killed 16 Afghan civilians was on his 3rd tour of duty and had a breakdown before that happened. Not excusing it, but from what i understand the US military is repeatedly putting people back into active service because they need the numbers, this guy shouldn't have been there in the first place.rhizhim said:
As for the other instances, especially the arsehole with the puppy. Well they are just scumbags. Scumbags are unfortunately present in every walk of life.
The only incident i can recall where our guys were genuine arseholes is this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/01/military.uk
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0830/defence.html
I can't find a link following up with what happened to these guys, but i do know that they got stamped on quite hard.
My point is the army doesn't encourage or ignore these things, and people who do that are held in contempt by people in the military too.
To be fair, a soldier is technically a mercenary, it's just more organised, you get paid to shoot people, if you join the army in a time of peace, and then a week afterwards Britain declares war on Sweden because why the hell not, you're not killing swedish soldiers because you hate them, or even because you believe they are a evil that must be stopped, it's because a man is paying you to shoot Swedish soldiers, sure, you can say it's because your a patriot, but then you're a mercenary who doesn't feel bad about it because it's for "insert home country here".
Yeah. Good point. I think, this was mostly achieved by the Germans being tired of the Nazis and war itself. Also it was not a very different culture.Dr. Mongo said:
But when you look into Afghanistan, it's a completely different situation.
The Taliban are still up an bombing. The government is corrupt as shit.
When the allies marched into Germany they took out everyone who happened to be a Nazi. They really purged this country. Also quite a lot of German people weren't actually Nazis, they just had to keep silent in order of staying alive. So the support in the population for the NSDAP after being freed by the Allies was at best low.
The Taliban are not destroyed, like the NSDAP, they are still feared by kinda everyone in Afghanistan. Also the whole INFIDELS!!!!-deal. This is the cultural aspect.
Another aspect: Now they try to avoid having civilian casualties.
In WW2 they bombed the shit out of everything. People were actually scared of the occupying soldiers. Imagine a civilian attacking a GI in Germany. They would have killed him in splitsecodns.
Look at a civialian attacking a GI in Afghanistan. "You want tea or coffee in prison before you are released in 20 minutes?"
Financial Reasons - I'd love to us divert most of those 10's of billions or 100's of billions of dollars of spending towards health care, education, etc. If we didn't spend so much on military, everyone could benefit from a higher quality of life.
Ethical Reasons - I don't believe in wars solving problems. Especially the wars we choose to participate in. Why attack countries with access to fuel when other countries practice in genocide and we don't feel that is a greater threat to people's freedom. (yes, this is an extremely leading statement but I'm simply trying to illustrate the greater evil in my mind)
Recruitment - It bothers me that the military is largely formed by poverty and low income individuals. The people who are suffering most from the failings of our country are typically the ones dying to keep things from changing.
I freely admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to the reality of the military.
Ethical Reasons - I don't believe in wars solving problems. Especially the wars we choose to participate in. Why attack countries with access to fuel when other countries practice in genocide and we don't feel that is a greater threat to people's freedom. (yes, this is an extremely leading statement but I'm simply trying to illustrate the greater evil in my mind)
Recruitment - It bothers me that the military is largely formed by poverty and low income individuals. The people who are suffering most from the failings of our country are typically the ones dying to keep things from changing.
I freely admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to the reality of the military.
Was it an order or was it murder? A soldier is a person. Some people go bat shit insane. People who are NOT in the military kill people too. Or is a soldier going off and murdering people somehow become worse than a civilian going off and murdering people?manic_depressive13 said:
Only fools deal in absolutes. Most soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen are people doing a job and trying to do it well. It is the minority that presents the bad image for everyone else.
Hey hey, it's my opinion! Yay!Chasing-The-Light said:
That said I'm not gonna blame the troops for what they're doing because ultimately they didn't choose to go to war. I'm sure they'd rather get paid without getting shot at in the end. Also maybe it's not stupid that they join, but maybe it is a bit sad that people feel it's their only way to get stimulating, enjoyable work or, in some cases, any work at all. My friend recently applied for officer training but got rejected. I have to hide the fact that I'm really pleased he got rejected because he's my friend and I don't want him putting himself in danger like that but I still come off as a jerk.
One thing I fucking detest is the charity Help for Heroes. Ok, maybe not the charity itself, but I think that really the armed forces needs to taking fucking better care of its people. Frankly they should be taking account of the fact that people get wounded in war and budget fucking accordingly. Another one of my friends meanwhile, in the navy cadets, gets PAID for a weekend sports day. That is just disgusting. I find the fact that Help for Heroes even exists insulting. Whatever way you look at it, either the army is failing people who put their lives on the line for them or Help for Heroes is wasting money on people already being looked after.
*deep breath*
So yeah, I guess I don't have a problem with soldiers but I do have a problem with the armed forces.
Also, the RIDICULOUS number of career talks I have had from the army telling me to do engineering for them is absurd. Give me some space bro!
Well... at least the civilians bullets weren't paid for by the taxpayer. Also it's recommended to keep an eye on the sanity of the people you hand guns to.Sarge034 said:
I personally don't like armies. Winning a war proves nothing other than superior capacity to win a war, it says nothing about the superiority of the nation whose army it is. I respect people who are in the army if and only if they can justify why they are in the army, what they are fighting for and why its necessary to fight for it. Basically, I respect people who have made an informed decision to fight for their country.
Wowowow. Britain wouldn't attack Sweden, you love us!Agow95 said:
Funny though you took Sweden as an example, cause it WAS an good argument against what you wrote because of one thing: conscription. I was one of the last conscripted soldiers. I was technically forced into the army, and since I am not very fond of violence I was placed as and Engineer/Medic. I was given a very, very good medical education and learned a lot.
I believe that a conscripted army is superior to a professional army, since it is a peoples army, with normal boys and girls with normal lives. The military is one of the few jobs no-one in their right mind "wants" to be in, but it is a necessary evil. And when I was there I was glad I did it with guys that was somewhat skeptical to using gun and stupid order, rather than gung-ho machomen.
No we have a professional army, and from what I heard, the quality and quantity has gone down quiet a bit; too many soldiers that wants to fight, to few that wants to do a good job.
Also note that a conscripted army can't be used in foreign countries, but that not really a bad thing a believe. An army is for defence.
I don't hate the army because they just do their jobs so I can live happily without fear of being blown up. However, I do have my biases against the US military because of the whole warmongering culture that surrounds it but I bet rarely makes its way into the military itself. Luckily I'm in the UK where our army is small, but better trained and worthy of such respect.