Why do so many people think that in order to be mature, art has to be dark and depressing?

[Erttheking]

I've been idly browsing through TV Tropes, seeing the events of some of the latest batman comics. They're pretty fucking depressing. Just one bad thing after another happening to the guy and his family. And I have to say, I'm having a hard time wanting to read them. Why? Because where's the enjoyment of someone who is constantly hit in the face over and over again with shit to make his life even worse. Frankly some of it comes off as kind of cheap, like a desperate attempt to "Raise the stakes" and make the work more "Edgy".

And that got me thinking. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy plenty of stories with dark story lines, but why is it that some people think that in order for a story to be mature and well written, it needs to be dark? When people talk about ground breaking works that will be remembering for generations to come, they don't usually talk about things with a very happy tone. A lot of people constantly praise Game of Thrones for how dark it is, as opposed to just being well written. Frankly I think we could benefit from stories that focus less on being dark and gritty all the time and more on making the reader smile every once in awhile. Light hearted moments are a good way to get invested in the characters, so that you actually care about them when they're in peril. We need more Guardians of the Galaxy.

Really, I seriously doubt that a story can't be deep, engrossing and artistic without being dark. In contrast to Batman, All Star Superman is one of the more light hearted super hero stories, and is praised as one of the best Superman comics ever written. I haven't read it, but when a story has a scene like this

Spoiler

http://moarpowah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/supermanrooftop.jpg

It makes me really want to.

Am I just talking out of my rear here? Are we a little too obsessed with being dark? Or am I just looking in the wrong places?

 

[Queen Michael]

I gotta agree with you "till hundra procent," as we say in Sweden. Darkness is overrated.

Also, I freakin' love All-Star Superman. Read it, read it, read it.

JesuOtaku put it very well. I don't remember her exact wording, but her point was that the fact that a series is dark doesn't automatically make it better. It doesn't make the characters more well-rounded, or the dialogue better, or the soundtrack more poignant, or the plotting more well-done.

One of my all-time favorite manga series and anime series is Cardcaptor Sakura. One of the things I love about it is its optimism. It's a series where people never lose hope, and where nobody's truly evil. That's why I love it.

 

[Leemaster777]

Total agreement from me.

Dark and mature are not mutually inclusive. And neither is quality, if we're being honest.

Perfect example of something that's mature without being dark? Persona 4. I've heard it described as "the happiest game about murder ever". And I have to agree. It gives you a stern glimpse into the internal struggles of it's main characters, but always maintains a lightness of tone (save for one instance near the end).

Also, something that's dark but not the least bit mature? Sin City. You don't get much darker than a story with THAT much excess, but it's also probably the most immature and childish take on that kind of subject matter that I can recall.

There's certainly a place for dark and/or mature stories in our media. But I agree that people often get too hung up on such things. Personally, I've always been more attracted to levity in my media.

 

[TheRiddler]

Just want to preface this with a relevant bit from the Lego Movie (Which was great. Watch it if you haven't yet.):


I think it stems from the notion that works without "edgy" stuff (violence, sex, angst and drugs) are for kids. And that stuff made for kids isn't generally mature.

But both of the above statements are false. I dunno, I've seen kids' stuff that felt more mature than some of the most dark, gritty stuff out there.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I'd say it's really just about a sort of rage against the overly saccharine content most people are forced to consume as children. Sugary good time fun gets equated so much with "kid stuff" that it's easy to make the assumption that the polar opposite is required of "not kid stuff." I don't think there's much actual thought involved as all. It's just sort of standard reaction particularly in those just leaving behind the "kid's stuff." I'd wager that most people, as they truly mature and develop, swing backwards a little to a more even standing.

All that said, I actually prefer my Batman dark. I've always found that given the world and the character, a dark Batman makes a lot more sense than anything else. It just feels more authentic to me. Now, I agree that everything in Batman shouldn't be 100% grimdark 24/7 but I feel it should trend more that way on the average.

 

[krazykidd]

BecAuse usually kids don't get dark and mature. Also some themes aren't suitable for children. How is this hard to understand.

 

[stroopwafel]

Well, Batman has always been a 'dark' character since its early inception in 1939. Only from about '55 to '69 during the Silver Age era of comics(and that includes the camp TV series with Adam West) have Batman been a ridulous clown. Oh yeah and let's not forget the cringeworthy movies by Joel Schumacher in the '90s obviously.

I've been idly browsing through TV Tropes, seeing the events of some of the latest batman comics. They're pretty fucking depressing. Just one bad thing after another happening to the guy and his family.

I assume the article hints at Scott Snyder's run on Batman(particularly the Death of the Family story arc), which I personally think is utterly fantastic. I think Snyder is the best Batman writer since Frank Miller re-envisioned the character in The Dark Knight Returns. The 'New 52' that started in 2011 when Snyder took over the reigns of the monthly Batman series really saw a dramatic increase in the quality of the book which had gotten pretty meh at the time. Snyder rebooted the series and then some. Zero Year is also easily on par with Year One, which have always been considered the definite origin story.

But anyways, Batman being a 'dark' character in a grim world really isn't a trend but just a return to form. I've always been a huge Batman fan. Superman, some demi-god in a ridiculous pyjama never did it for me. Neither did any of the Marvel superhero clowns. But like they say, to each their own.

 

[wulf3n]

why is it that some people think that in order for a story to be mature and well written, it needs to be dark?

What makes you think it's an attempt at being mature, and not just some people liking "dark" things?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Batman needs to be dark and grim because the character doesn't make sense otherwise. On paper he's on a fucking suicide mission because he can't get over his anger and pain. The moment he starts being happy, finds a proper girlfriend, that's the moment where he goes "Why am I throwing myself into harms way night after night when I finally have something to live for?" and you see in the Dark Knight Rises, that is the realistic way his story ends. Not a giant fight to the finish with The Joker, but Bruce finally accepting his parent's morality and moving on with his life.

 

[Simonism451]

I think it's because most genre fiction is pretty much centered around violent heroes and violence is seen as a pretty terrible thing by most people in real life, so making terrible things happen to your violent heroes is an easy way to make it seem authentic and true to life while still having a completely unrealistic premise. Also, a whole lot of people genuinely believe the world is a pretty terrible place.

 

[omega 616]

I think you have to let the reader "rest", if you constantly kicking your downed hero, it loses it's impact and makes the story a fucking slog to get through.

If you have highs and lows, it makes the highs higher and the lows hurt more.

I am not a critic of writing, obviously and I haven't read any of the comics but it doesn't sound they have good writers on the batman story. Getting darker and darker just makes the reader numb to the pain of Batman, not up the stakes.

 

[sextus the crazy]

JesuOtaku put it very well. I don't remember her exact wording, but her point was that the fact that a series is dark doesn't automatically make it better. It doesn't make the characters more well-rounded, or the dialogue better, or the soundtrack more poignant, or the plotting more well-done.

I think that was in her Madoka Magica review. She said that the show wasn't good because of it's deconstructive nature, but because of all of the things you listed above.

OT: Some things are Edgy or dark for no reason, but I also see media that are always positive without any given reason (more vapid and vaguely happy than deservedly optimistic). Mature things are "dark" because there's lots of shallow immature light things to reject artistically. When "Darkness" becomes the standard for vapid immaturity, positive/fun things with good writing with be the groundbreaking stuff.

 

[Queen Michael]

JesuOtaku put it very well. I don't remember her exact wording, but her point was that the fact that a series is dark doesn't automatically make it better. It doesn't make the characters more well-rounded, or the dialogue better, or the soundtrack more poignant, or the plotting more well-done.

I think that was in her Madoka Magica review. She said that the show wasn't good because of it's deconstructive nature, but because of all of the things you listed above.

Yep, that's the one. My favorite of her reviews.

 

[faefrost]

There are a lot of supremely good comic writers and artists who don't take the easy path and go "dark and edgy". A lot of Mark Waid's and Geoff John's stuff tends to stray into the light and maintain a spirit of hopefulness. The same can be said for Dan Slott. Even Jonathan Hickman at his most multigenerational illuminati type conspiracy weirdness tends to be mostly upbeat. Heck Morison these days seems to split his time evenly between grim dark and upbeat.

I just worry that DC and Warner Brothers is heading to that same dark "deconstructionist" place from the late 80's that gave birth to the decades long poop pile we collectively try to forget that was the 90's comics industry.

 

[Lord Garnaat]

I agree completely. One of the reasons I found a place in the Brony fandom was simply because I was sick of the kind of cynical obsession with anger and pointless rebellion that seemed so pervasive. I've come to realize that series that are just constant darkness without any kind of relief or happiness simply don't hold my attention.

For example, I became involved recently in two different series: A Song of Ice and Fire and The Walking Dead. I've read all of the books and watched every episode from the former, but only managed to get through two seasons of the latter. Why? I realized that The Walking Dead wasn't interesting any more simply because it was never going to get better for anyone: there was no point to keep watching the characters struggle because no matter what happened, the writers would just contrive some reason for everything to go to Hell immediately afterwards. One of my friends gave up around the same time, simply because he preferred to think the characters just lived happily on Hershel's farm rather than continue watching and seeing what happened to mess it up. With Ice and Fire, bad things happen, even to good characters, but it never feels arbitrary or like there's no point to continue: there's always hope that things will get better, and always a victory for good even when there's a victory for evil. The unfortunate things that happen feel realistic, not unfair.

 

[The Abhorrent]

To answer the basic question, why are "dark themes" often considered equivalent to "mature themes"?

Very simple, those "dark themes" are not considered forbidden to any form of children's entertainment. So when you want to break out of that "child-like" feeling and come off as more mature, the easiest way to do so is to jump straight into the themes which children were forbidden to see for a variety of reasons. Classic dichotomy-only thinking; if something is not "kiddy", it must be "mature". Conversely, anything "mature" shall not be "kiddy". Another way of saying it is that idealism is considered childish, ergo cynicism must be mature.

Indeed, this sort of thinking is wrong on many levels... and one could easily argue that genuine maturity involves getting over this particular notion.

 

[Subbies]

They don't. Only teenagers think that but since they are the ones who mostly post on forums and who feel that they have to give their advice on are, what we get are edgy, angsty, "this isn't art unless it's dark" mentality.

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

BecAuse usually kids don't get dark and mature. Also some themes aren't suitable for children. How is this hard to understand.

I.... what are you talking about? Does Lord of the Flies mean anything to you? Outside of books have you been around children for an extended period of time? Don't be obtuse, children can be dark and they can be mature. They don't have to be both of those things and yet they can be.

Themes being suitable for children are determined by their given society. In one place it can be acceptable for a child to see violence, and in another swearing is acceptable. Don't act like everything follows the rules you grew up with or those of your given society, that's just thick.