Why do we assume that aliens would be far more advanced than us?

[EvilRoy]

I think part of the problem is that people are assuming that the technology needed to destroy us is much more advanced than is the actual case. In reality all they would need to do is drop rocks on us from orbit.

Look up the kinetic bombardment AKA "rods from god" weapon theory. The original idea, if I recall, was simply to get some telephone pole sized tungsten rods into high orbit, and then just drop them on targets. They calculated the force from kinetic impact would equal about 11 tonnes of TNT, just short of Little Boy.

So, realistically, all they would need to do is show up, grab whatever dense elements they could mine from the asteroid field, move into orbit and then just drop it on us.

Alternatively they could just "push" asteroids into us from the belt without ever actually revealing themselves.

And neither of those options requires technology more advanced than what would be required to travel between solar systems.

 

[hermes]

It'd be like if Columbus (or whichever European really set foot on the Americas) came to the Americas and found a vastly superior civilization that had no idea of the Eurasian landmass.

But it did happened. Not in the case of Columbus (although many argue the civilization they found has great architectural and agricultural knowledge that was unknown to the Europeans at the time), but with countless conquered civilizations as well.

When the European (or the Persians) faced the Mongols, it would have been easy to identify the "more advanced" civilization. We had castles, and fortresses, art and math, armors and crossbows, etc. They lived in tents, fight with bows and arrows, had barely any concept of agriculture and didn't even wear armors. Yet they mop the floor with us every single time. Why? Because, while we developed some of the concepts listed before, they focused their entire development in the art of war, and in that sense we were like toddlers to them.

It was similar with the Vikings and the Byzantine. The Byzantine Empire would be considered, by a number of reasons, a "more advanced" civilization than the Vikings... but they didn't handle to well at the times they met. Why? Because, while it is truth that the Byzantine Empire was far more advanced in terms of economy, arts and science, the Vikings were more advanced in terms of sea warfare.

Those are just a couple of examples. The bottomline is, technology and civilization advances in branches, and even when we might assume another civilization would be more advanced than ours in some branches, that doesn't mean its more advanced overall.

 

[TheRookie8]

Agreed.

Especially since we have pantry doors.

 

[Something Amyss]

Agreed.

Especially since we have pantry doors.

And baseball bats.

Aliens' one true weakness: baseball bats.

 

[talker]

EDIT: I do remember, though, someone wrote a sci-fi story where space travel was very easily done, just not discovered by humans, who get invaded by pre-gunpowder aliens.

Really? What was it called?

We probably iamgine aliens as being far more advanced technologically because the human race isn't althogether that old, and if you imagine the technological possiblities we haven't really progressed much beyond clubbing each other to death in comparison.

Also because we're rather arrogant and we think that if we can't leave the solar system with our current technology, anybody who comes here must be really advanced because if we can't do it with the tech we have, those extraterrestrial bastards wouldn't be able to do it either, right?

 

[BNguyen]

I think, although I don't like to admit it, that technology improves by leaps and bounds during periods of war, and no one species can live upon a planet without having conflict and the need to defend themselves. When war has ceased, the species is able to take the developed technology and branch out into different areas of necessity with it.
I think what seems the mos unlikely with alien invasions is that a single group of aliens conquered their homeworld, formed a unified army (without internal conflicts which is the most unlikely unless they are a hive mind kind of species) and develop to the point of needing to advance to other worlds for conquest and whatnot.
I'm not sure how old our world is when compared to other areas of the universe, but assuming that our 4 billion year history is recent then it is likely that in another region of space a planet was born sooner than ours, even a couple hundred thousand years or so would be enough to put an alien species on that planet light
years ahead of us technologically.
You see, I don't think that we assume that all aliens are more advanced than us but that since we are alone in our little area that the only aliens we'll be encountering are either microscopic or advanced enough to have traveled here to find us

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

1) Scientists don't. They just acknowledge that at this point the only extraterrestrials they would have any hope of contacting would be those more advanced than us so they have no reason to look for anything else outside of our solar system at the moment.

2) People are obsessed with underdog stories so almost any movie you see will feature the aliens as being far superior to us in the easiest way representable by the film maker: technology. That isn't some special storytelling feature unique to alien invasions; look at all the other movies we watch. Karate kid was a wimpy little idiot who triumphed over the kid who was stronger, faster and more dedicated to honing his craft. Jason Bourne was one guy with only his wits and what little equipment he could gather against an agency backed by thousands of people and tons of money; in the most recent one they attack him with a predator drone and he gets away because he has a knife and a wolf. Indiana Jones was one guy versus the weight of the entire Nazi war machine; he defeated a tank with a rock while riding on a horse. 300, Rocky, Seabiscuit, Star Wars, The Hobbit, Skyfall, pick most any movie. We love our protagonists to be the plucky underdog who somehow wins. It's no different in movies where it's humanity against aliens.

The only movie coming out soon that might buck that trend would be The Forever War. But I highly doubt that Hollywood wont bungle it like they do every other good book.

 

[ghostrider409895]

I agree with your point on radio transmissions because there is nothing to suggest that they do not just have very advanced broadcasting. On earth there have been civilizations that had a breakthrough in one area, while just having rather poor advancements in other areas of research. However, if aliens have successfully figured out how to travel space, within a reasonable amount of time, then they clearly do have great advancements in travel and life preservation - or at least advancements much greater than our own.

On the idea of just "stomping us" with their advancements though, I feel it would greatly depend on why the aliens came to this area in the first place. Consider that we have people who would merely want to travel and explore - for scientific, or just plain normal curiosity. I do not think there were weapons brought to the moon when we went (although if I am wrong do tell me). We did not think we would encounter alien life; grant it, but the idea is possible that aliens might become advanced enough to just want to explore and look for more locations with intelligent life. There is no guarantee they will be ready to just "stomp us".

If we ever do encounter alien life that we can communicate with, and can coexist, I am sure we will find alien life that is both above and below us in intelligence and advancements. I am sure we will find groups and races whose advancements do not match that of ours, but run in parallel with our discoveries - just through different means like different power sources, or different alloys.

 

[happyninja42]

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on the "Wow" signal and it mentioned this: Scientists say that if the signal came from extraterrestrials, they are likely an extremely advanced civilization, as the signal would have required a 2.2-gigawatt transmitter, vastly more powerful than any on Earth.

Now that strikes me as an odd conclusion to draw because it completely disregards the idea of sectionalized technological advancement.

But I don't really see much in the way of sectionalized technology. At least not to the extreme you are positing here. Suggesting that a culture would have INTERSTELLAR TRAVEL licked, yet would somehow be at what, 17th century level warfare technology? Or maybe at just the 19th century level of warfare? That just doesn't make any sense.

I just don't get why that is such a popular assumption. I mean, sure they might be more advanced in space flight if they can travel through space, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have developed highly advanced military technology. Or with the Wiki article, just because they might have vastly more powerful radios doesn't mean they have developed computer technology to our level.

Technically this is true, but the likelihood that the technological advances they have made as a species are restricted to just those individual inventions is unlikely. Now granted, all we can do is compare our personal species advancement, since we have nothing to compare it to. But whenever we as a race have made an advancement in one field, it almost always has spillover into other disciplines. New advances in metalurgy don't just make construction different, it effects military, business, agriculture, etc etc. So if they've developed technology to the point that they have defeated the difficulties of interstellar travel, that level of technological advancement, would very likely mean that every other aspect of their culture would be similarly advanced.

I guess what I'm saying is that because they are aliens, they will certainly have developed along different parameters than we have so their technology in one area might be far beyond ours but an area of ours might be far beyond theirs as well.

Again, this is technically possible I guess, but can you name one culture on this planet that has got a significantly superior edge in one area of technology, that is somehow still back at say the stone age in everything else? I'm not talking about cultures that have bought tech from others, I mean a culture that has actually developed some form of technology to a superior level, yet somehow didn't similarly develop other areas at the same level. I can't think of any that have, for example, 21st century medicine, yet 15th century everything else. I find it unlikely that you could even be able to advance one area of technology that far, without the necessary infrastructure in other fields being on similar caliber. That would be like expecting a production plant using Industrial Revolution level technology, churning out space age, computerized, high performance equipment. It's just not likely, if even possible at all. The advances they make would spill over into every aspect of their society, just like ours have.

Thoughts?

It's all speculation really. In entertainment aliens are either Super Violent or Super Peaceful. You're above speculation that you could have an interstellar society that isn't as advanced in warfare is based on an assumption that they aren't as prone to conflict and violence, or simply dangerous environments as we are, and were thus never forced to develop methods of defending themselves. Yeah sure that's possible, but given how harsh the universe is, I find it unlikely. We just simply don't know one way or another.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think part of the problem is that people are assuming that the technology needed to destroy us is much more advanced than is the actual case. In reality all they would need to do is drop rocks on us from orbit.

Look up the kinetic bombardment AKA "rods from god" weapon theory. The original idea, if I recall, was simply to get some telephone pole sized tungsten rods into high orbit, and then just drop them on targets. They calculated the force from kinetic impact would equal about 11 tonnes of TNT, just short of Little Boy.

So, realistically, all they would need to do is show up, grab whatever dense elements they could mine from the asteroid field, move into orbit and then just drop it on us.

Alternatively they could just "push" asteroids into us from the belt without ever actually revealing themselves.

And neither of those options requires technology more advanced than what would be required to travel between solar systems.

As it happens, bombarding from orbit isn't that great an idea. A missile can be launched into orbit from anywhere on the planet, from various warships, planes, submarines, bases etc. You could have one concealed in a truck if you wanted.

If you're in orbit, you're sitting there in a big empty space with nothing to conceal you.

OTOH, striking from further out, deflecting objects without ever coming to orbit would be much safer, though I think you couldn't do so without revealing yourself, you'd just be too far away to touch.

 

[wulfy42]

First to the person who said aliens would get her themselves with wings. You do realize wings wouldn't do anything in space right?

Second, there are 3 planetary bodies in our solar system that could support human life without massive change/terraforming or inserting outside objects (water etc) into the atmosphere. It's quite possible other forms of life could develop on other planets, and also quite possible likely that with sufficient technology and resources...many other moons/planets could eventually be made to support life as well.

Third....with enough technology you could in theory create planets (from meteorites, asteroids etc), move them (changing their orbit) and even possibly combine them (to make a much bigger planet with higher gravity)....giving an advanced enough species limitless options for expansion. One option in fact for long distance space exploration is to find a decent moon with alot of resources....and use the entire MOON as a spaceship (giving you nearly limitless matter to use as fuel).

In order to get anywhere in the universe....you need to be able to accelerate at extreme (and I mean EXTREME) speeds, or you need some form of transportation we don't know of yet (faster then light travel, worm holes etc). If FTL and worm holes are not useable/possible.....then that leaves extreme acceleration.

What if you could generate an engine that would propel a ship at 1million mph acceleration? That would enable you to reach half the speed of light fairly fast (and decelerate from that speed at a fairly fast rate as well). We know such speeds of acceleration are possible by the way the universe was formed and is currently laid out, it just takes a massive explosion.

The speed of light is approximately 670 million miles per hour, so if you could accelerate at 1million mph, you would reach half the speed of light (335 mmph), in approximately 14 days. To get to Alpha Centuiri it would then only take about 8 years. You could in theory accelerate faster then that...but approaching the speed of light may be dangerous....probably not something to do on your first trip (better to take twice as long getting there).

Even much longer trips could be made possible using something along those lines along with suspended animation, freezing sperm/egs and thawing them out growing humans right before arrival etc. Small amounts of time (less then 1000 years) isn't that important on a cosmic scale. In fact, your largest problem at that point would be how long the light has been traveling before reaching us (Which means things may be different then what we saw before leaving).

To travel 5000 light years for instance...at half the speed of light would take about 10,000 years, but it would have been 15,000 years by the time we get there since we had seen any light from that system. 15,000 years isn't really that long in the life of a sun etc...but you could have massive changes happen in that time.

As far as rotation within the universe etc, that is tricky as well. As I said above you don't really know the exact movement of any system..and couldn't until we got much closer. That requires any ship we send out to be able to fine toon it's trajectory on the move. There is no easy way to tell even where say Alpha Centuri is NOW (although you can make a fairly good accessment based on where it appears to be now...and where it appeared to be 4 years ago in our cosmos). Still just aiming an shooting and expecting a ship to get there would not work, you need to be able to alter course on the fly or you'll never hit the correct place in space/time.

Massive acceleration is possible though...and with it, so is space exploration outside of our solar system. I would say by the time we actually get to that point we will probably have terraformed a few planets at least in our own system...and possibly even be to the point where we could shape/chance and even create planetary bodies....even in extremes like Jupiter.

Of course when your playing with forces large enough to reach such extreme acceleration levels, you could also wipe out all life in this system easily as well.

 

[EvilRoy]

I think part of the problem is that people are assuming that the technology needed to destroy us is much more advanced than is the actual case. In reality all they would need to do is drop rocks on us from orbit.

Look up the kinetic bombardment AKA "rods from god" weapon theory. The original idea, if I recall, was simply to get some telephone pole sized tungsten rods into high orbit, and then just drop them on targets. They calculated the force from kinetic impact would equal about 11 tonnes of TNT, just short of Little Boy.

So, realistically, all they would need to do is show up, grab whatever dense elements they could mine from the asteroid field, move into orbit and then just drop it on us.

Alternatively they could just "push" asteroids into us from the belt without ever actually revealing themselves.

And neither of those options requires technology more advanced than what would be required to travel between solar systems.

As it happens, bombarding from orbit isn't that great an idea. A missile can be launched into orbit from anywhere on the planet, from various warships, planes, submarines, bases etc. You could have one concealed in a truck if you wanted.

If you're in orbit, you're sitting there in a big empty space with nothing to conceal you.

OTOH, striking from further out, deflecting objects without ever coming to orbit would be much safer, though I think you couldn't do so without revealing yourself, you'd just be too far away to touch.

Assuming you're talking about ballistic missiles, those have a apogee of about 1200 km. If you decided to launch it from the tip of Mt. Everest, you can add about 8.8 km to that for a trivial increase in range. Of course once it's left the majority of the effects of gravity behind after the first 100 km the rocket could feasibly continue to boost toward any given target. So we can assume that the missile will always reach its target, regardless of range. The problem now, is how long that is going to take.

According to wikipedia, the minuteman ICBM can travel at a whopping Mach 23, 28,176 km/h. I'm going to assume that this speed is constant so I don't have to care about acceleration time, and that the vast majority of available fuel is used to break atmosphere, with the remainder being reserved for course correction.

If the alien ship decides to get a good seat, and watch from just beyond our furthest satellites (so shit doesn't bounce off their hull), its gonna take that missile (24,000 / 28,176) 51 minutes to reach their ship. Even if the instant they were detected in orbit we started firing wildly into the air, they would still have had time to launch a full volley before our weapons even physically reached them. At which point it would no longer matter whether or not our weapons were effective.


Captcha, I am sorry that I do not watch American television. I will never ever be able to tell you who is having a summer bbq sale. Summer is nearly over here anyway.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Well, because technology largely isn't independent.

For our own species, for instance, being able to send a ship to the moon required advances in materials, communications, chemistry, and quite a few other technologies.

Envisioning a situation in which a species had developed interstellar space travel, but not, say, advanced weaponry, is pretty unlikely.
Not to mention that many such developments are inter-related.

Even if you presume they never actually bothered to create weapons with it, a species that can develop nuclear power, knows enough nuclear physics to also develop nuclear bombs.

The technology for either is a different application of the same principles. Therefore it would be quite odd to develop one, but not the other, except for ideological reasons, and even then, the existence of one would make the development of the other comparatively easy.

Also... Some things are dangerous by extension of how they work.
If relying on conventional ideas of rocket propulsion, any space vehicle capable of interstellar travel could cause serious damage to a planet just by firing it's main engines at full power.

Put simply, while it's possible to imagine the development of certain technologies completely independently of any others, often many technologies have inter-related underlying physics and engineering principles.

This inter-related stuff means that there's going to be many cases where if they can create technology X, then it reasonably follows they can also create technologies y and z. - Even if they don't, for some reason, the mere existence of the other technologies based on the same kinds of principles would mean they could develop them relatively quickly if they needed to.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I guess what I'm saying is that because they are aliens, they will certainly have developed along different parameters than we have so their technology in one area might be far beyond ours but an area of ours might be far beyond theirs as well.

Thoughts?

There's an element of anthropomorphism to it, insofar as we as a people are generally incapable of properly understanding a truly alien mindset, and so we tend to make behavioral predictions from assumptions of human-like thought processes, and human technology has always been military first and foremost.

The rest of it is fear. Any alien species capable of reaching Earth within a time and resource limit that makes the trip worthwhile has figured out how to bend physics over the table and stick their dick in it. It is literally beyond our current understanding of the universe, and that implies that the aliens have an understanding of physics that is literally beyond our comprehension.

Combine the two, and it's quite easy to see why people would generally assume that any interstellar alien force would have military technology on par with, if not exceeding that of, their spaceflight technology.

Is it always going to be true? Probably not (I've read some fun sci-fi stories about interstellar alien forces that use flintlock guns for example), but it certainly would be for humanity, so people tend to assume it's true in all cases.

If they can already travel faster than lightspeed, they don't need flintlock weapons. Its less anthropomorphism and more the fact that if they can develop the materials and power source necessary for long distance space travel, they can very very easily weaponize it. And teleportation could be weaponized easily as well.

 

[Agayek]

If they can already travel faster than lightspeed, they don't need flintlock weapons. Its less anthropomorphism and more the fact that if they can develop the materials and power source necessary for long distance space travel, they can very very easily weaponize it. And teleportation could be weaponized easily as well.

Well yea, but they'd have to think of such first. If, for example, they make very firm distinctions between "weapon" and "transport", it may never occur to them that their ships could be used as a weapon.

That's what I mean by anthropomorphism. You're assuming that an utterly alien mind will take a look at something and immediately recognize its potential as a weapon, just like most humans would. You've gotta remember that we're talking about aliens. They will think in fundamentally different ways, and that could easily include a blindness (willful or otherwise) to the destructive potential of their technology.

That's not to say that they can't or won't see it, just that it's not guaranteed. And if they lack the capacity to make that realization, then their military technology could easily be relatively primitive.

In the vast majority of cases, I wouldn't bet against what you're saying. Most successful species know how to fight and fight rather viciously after all. I'm just saying that it's not a guarantee.

 

[nathan-dts]

We don't assume aliens will be more advanced than us, we assume the aliens with the technology to get to us are more advanced than us.

Say they have a rocket capable of crossing solar systems or galaxies, they have very powerful energy sources. Now imagine whatever that fuel is, being weaponised as a bomb or something.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

If they can already travel faster than lightspeed, they don't need flintlock weapons. Its less anthropomorphism and more the fact that if they can develop the materials and power source necessary for long distance space travel, they can very very easily weaponize it. And teleportation could be weaponized easily as well.

Well yea, but they'd have to think of such first. If, for example, they make very firm distinctions between "weapon" and "transport", it may never occur to them that their ships could be used as a weapon.

That's what I mean by anthropomorphism. You're assuming that an utterly alien mind will take a look at something and immediately recognize its potential as a weapon, just like most humans would. You've gotta remember that we're talking about aliens. They will think in fundamentally different ways, and that could easily include a blindness (willful or otherwise) to the destructive potential of their technology.

That's not to say that they can't or won't see it, just that it's not guaranteed. And if they lack the capacity to make that realization, then their military technology could easily be relatively primitive.

In the vast majority of cases, I wouldn't bet against what you're saying. Most successful species know how to fight and fight rather viciously after all. I'm just saying that it's not a guarantee.

Unless they just plain don't understand the concept of weapons at all, I don't see how this would work. Especially since if their ecosystem resembles ours in any way, they have had to fight off predation, and a intelligent species that doesn't understand adapting tools to a different task is not a very effective species at all. Its possible I suppose, but you have to give the aliens no ability to adapt technology to more than one task, or no understanding of war. Especially since any species interested enough in science to create space exploration is probably also interested enough to discover and split the atom.

 

[Agayek]

Unless they just plain don't understand the concept of weapons at all, I don't see how this would work. Especially since if their ecosystem resembles ours in any way, they have had to fight off predation, and a intelligent species that doesn't understand adapting tools to a different task is not a very effective species at all. Its possible I suppose, but you have to give the aliens no ability to adapt technology to more than one task, or no understanding of war. Especially since any species interested enough in science to create space exploration is probably also interested enough to discover and split the atom.

Well, for example, the aliens in question could have evolved from a hived insect species, where every individual is very tightly regimented into a very specific role in their society and does not (and in fact physically cannot) question their place in that role.

With that kind of mindset, it's not at all inconceivable that they would never make the cognitive leap from "This device is a tool for X" to "This device can also be used for Y".

You're making assumptions about the mindset of an utterly alien species that evolved in an utterly alien environment. My entire point is that we simply cannot do that with any degree of accuracy. Aliens may be as or more adaptable as us, but they just as easily could be less so. We really can't make any guesses there.

Now, I'm not saying that they won't have technology that they can't use for weapons or military purposes, because that is blatantly false. Anyone able to have relatively cheap interstellar travel has sufficient understanding to, at minimum, manufacture hydrogen bombs without a great deal of effort.

What I'm saying is that just because they have the technology doesn't mean they have considered and/or are willing to explore all of its applications.

 

[Silverbeard]

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on the "Wow" signal and it mentioned this:

Scientists say that if the signal came from extraterrestrials, they are likely an extremely advanced civilization, as the signal would have required a 2.2-gigawatt transmitter, vastly more powerful than any on Earth.

Now that strikes me as an odd conclusion to draw because it completely disregards the idea of sectionalized technological advancement.

I remember when the film "Battle: LA" came out, lots of people were like "that's unrealistic because if the aliens could travel through space to get here, they would be able to stomp us easily." Ditto with Independence Day, and any other alien invasion film you can think of.

I just don't get why that is such a popular assumption. I mean, sure they might be more advanced in space flight if they can travel through space, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have developed highly advanced military technology. Or with the Wiki article, just because they might have vastly more powerful radios doesn't mean they have developed computer technology to our level.

I guess what I'm saying is that because they are aliens, they will certainly have developed along different parameters than we have so their technology in one area might be far beyond ours but an area of ours might be far beyond theirs as well.

Thoughts?

Capcha: Hot sauce.

I agree. Our hot sauce technology sets the bar for everyone.

Intra-galactic space flight implies a great deal of technological progress. The chief limiting factor for us is that we don't have a fuel or propulsion system that can manage fast space travel. If ETs have such a thing, then it implies that they can either move much faster than us or that they have a much better fuel system than we do.
Let us also not forget that human advancement is not linear; some countries are more advanced than others. Would an alien landing in France go as smoothly as the same landing in Sri Lanka? Course not; NATO has been preparing for invasions across Europe for decades. They have the manpower, machines and planning needed to rapidly counter and slow down, if not contain, an invasion by anything or anyone.
Sri Lanka, by comparison, is a little island with less than half that capacity. But no Western movie is going to be set in Sri Lanka, so that necessitates creating a credible threat to a Western armed force. Cue the hyper advanced aliens!
We forget also the unmatched military advantage associated with a force that can drop fully equipped troops from orbit anywhere they wish. Human force deployments are limited by the distance aircraft can travel and even that is only true for infantry. Tanks and artillery cannot be moved by anything other than ship, unless they're very light, and even if they are small enough for air transport, moving hundreds would be a nightmare of air logistics. If we cannot get at the alien crafts in space, we're never going to defeat them. Even if the aliens use ballistic weapons with chemical propellants like we do, the 'go anywhere' advantage puts any combat firmly in their favour. If they have orbital strike capabilities, then that's just one more boost for them. They can smash any ground force from space and drop our satellites to deny us information. Even if they cannot do this, they can observe the ground from space and have almost perfect intel on our positions, plans and movements.
Military tech is not just what the uniforms carry or what vehicles they ride in. There's a lot more that goes into it and it sounds like the ETs, if they can move through space, would have all the advantages in this field.
As a final note, we need not forget the biological aspects of this affair. Humans are relatively fragile; there's no reason to assume that ETs would be equally so.

 

[Olas]

Because fighting a bunch of weak-ass aliens is boring, really that's the main reason I think. Though it does make sense to assume that if they can develop interstellar travel they would also have superior fighting capabilities, for self defense if nothing else.