Why do we feel a need to justify video games as art?

[DevilWolf47]

Because we don't want our work censored in the States. Also because when I make a game, I consider it a work of art.

Goddamnit... wish i thought of that. If it's for the sake of being artistic you can get away with just about anything. Maybe there's a group trying to say video games are artistic so that they can add in game achievements related to bestiality. A game where there really is a quick time event "Press X to skull fuck orphan."
...wonder if they're accepting applications...

 

[Veldaroth]

For me, it's because I am an adult and don't want to be told what I can and can't play. Also, I have always considered video games to be interactive books, so to have to censer and leave out elements important to the plot and overall meaning of the work is irritating for both the creators and the players.

And I'd probably go crazy if they stopped making M rated games. After that, they'd probably target T rated gamed and before you know it, all they make is cartoony kids stuff. Sure, Little Big Planet can be fun now and then, but I need something deeper. What would we do without Fallout and Mass Effect?

Also, I find it pretty lame that it is probably easier for kids to find adult books with worse things in it than an M rated video game.

 

[DarthFennec]

Goddamnit... wish i thought of that. If it's for the sake of being artistic you can get away with just about anything. Maybe there's a group trying to say video games are artistic so that they can add in game achievements related to bestiality. A game where there really is a quick time event "Press X to skull fuck orphan."
...wonder if they're accepting applications...

I was referring to violence, actually. And I'm pretty sure you can't get away with putting bestiality and pedophilia in anything, art or not. Because, you know, it's kind of illegal.

There's a difference between having freedom of expression through an artistic form and `getting away' with things. If the government censored sexual and violent themes in, I don't know, paintings and sculptures and things, the entire fine art community and what it stands for would crumble immediately. I don't want that happening with games.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

As the title states, why are people feeling the need to convince people that video games are art? It just seems like to me, that people are trying to separate games they consider to be superior in every way to games that they consider the "idiotic, brainless masses" to like for some reason (Popular example: CoD series). That is the way I see it though, judging from the people in this forum, it is very likely this is not the case. I want to know why people want to prove that video games are art.

Because mass media portrays video-game players as socially retarted serial rapists in training, because there are some games that truly are art, because if we can't get video games to be considered art the government can legally control who can buy and sell video-games, because video-games are often used as scapegoats for shit not even remotely related to video-games, ie, school shootings, bullying, murder, drug abuse, etc.... anything else I missed?

 

[caselj01]

Asking me why I want to prove that video games are art is like asking me why I want to prove that dogs are animals, or that a circle is a shape. To me, these things are obviously true, thats why I feel the need to convince other people.

 

[Ashcrexl]

its a respectability thing.

you say, this movie is amazing. it really moved me and is absolutely gorgeous. people say, ok, i will check it out sometime, i've been looking for a good movie for some time.

you say, this game is amazing. it really moved me and is absolutely gorgeous. people say, whatever, its just a childs plaything.

that just irritates me as games are my personal favorite art form.

 

[DevilWolf47]

Goddamnit... wish i thought of that. If it's for the sake of being artistic you can get away with just about anything. Maybe there's a group trying to say video games are artistic so that they can add in game achievements related to bestiality. A game where there really is a quick time event "Press X to skull fuck orphan."
...wonder if they're accepting applications...

I was referring to violence, actually. And I'm pretty sure you can't get away with putting bestiality and pedophilia in anything, art or not. Because, you know, it's kind of illegal.

There's a difference between having freedom of expression through an artistic form and `getting away' with things. If the government censored sexual and violent themes in, I don't know, paintings and sculptures and things, the entire fine art community and what it stands for would crumble immediately. I don't want that happening with games.

Would they really slap pedophelia charges on top of depictions of desecrating a corpse...?
...maybe i'm thinking too hard on it. And artistic depictions aren't actually illegal. Just highly controversial. But so is almost anything worthwhile. Maybe that's just my inner protester speaking. I've always felt that causing people to be uncomfortable was part of the job. Art, in addition to being a form of expression, can be used to make improvements by forcing people to see the horrors of the world through symbolism. Dystopic games that depict an utter collapse of morals after society has failed and everyone is fighting just to stay alive can be used to make people more conscious of their actions in the real world. And also, they can be a good way to blow off some steam, letting you blow off heads in a world where the lasting consequences are merely fictional.

 

[DarthFennec]

Would they really slap pedophelia charges on top of depictions of desecrating a corpse...?
...maybe i'm thinking too hard on it. And artistic depictions aren't actually illegal. Just highly controversial. But so is almost anything worthwhile. Maybe that's just my inner protester speaking. I've always felt that causing people to be uncomfortable was part of the job. Art, in addition to being a form of expression, can be used to make improvements by forcing people to see the horrors of the world through symbolism. Dystopic games that depict an utter collapse of morals after society has failed and everyone is fighting just to stay alive can be used to make people more conscious of their actions in the real world. And also, they can be a good way to blow off some steam, letting you blow off heads in a world where the lasting consequences are merely fictional.

Oh whoops lol I thought you were trying to be sardonic in your last post, I guess I misinterpreted ^.^ Sorry.

Yeah, I definitely see your point now. And I definitely agree with you, games should be able to delve into these highly controversial topics, without all this groundless, blind negativity. Art doesn't mean shit if it doesn't make people think, and that often means making those people uncomfortable. But so far, it seems that games have been rallied against and hated for doing things like that, which is ridiculous because other art forms like movies are often praised for being controversial.

I'm reminded of MW2. I actually hate that game, but I still respect it, mostly because of the `No Russian' level. Games just don't do things like that, and it's sad, because as horrifying as that level was, it was also very beautiful, for the reasons that you brought up. But then you have shit like Mr. Thompson or Mr. Schwarzenegger or Fox News going after us for stupid reasons, or when that 20 second cutscene got Mass Effect 2 labeled as a porn simulator, or one of any other numerous things like that. I mean there's much more controversial and graphic stuff than this in the movies these people let their kids watch. I just want games to be respected in the same way movies and books and music are.

I guess I want games to be considered art mostly because I want to have the freedom to be an artist. If there are laws and societal issues that I have to work around, it greatly restricts the freedoms I have, and it's much more difficult to say the things I want to say, in the way I want to say them. Painters, authors, musicians, and directors have it easy, so why can't I?

 

[Ashsaver]

snip

I think,it's because if Video game is not a form of art,It won't be protected by free speech law,therefore the government can censor the game however they want or even ban them altogether.

This already happens in my country,and i lose the chances to play many great games (legally,and legibly) because of it.

 

[hermes]

Because they have gone a long way, so it has become relevant. While trying to justify the experience behind Arkanoid beyond the level of skill might by farfetched, games now are a lot about creating an experience, and those experiences are a lot richer than just "satisfaction for beating a boss". That puts them on the same level as films and other medium... if those are considered art, why not this?

Besides, if you stick to the notion that videogames are only expensive toys, you tend to agree with those mothers that complains about a lot of things because "would someone please think of the childrens"...

 

[moretimethansense]

Because games ARE art simple as.

If we were to simply leave it a generation or two this would become the concensus either way, the reason we are always banging on about it is because of all the flak we catch for enjoying "childerens toys" that attitude is why there is controversy over every single M or 18 rated game that ever comes out, remember when comics were treated like that?
They became sanitized, saccrine and very fucking shallow for decades, we don't want that happening to games!

Also if they are formaly recognized as an art form it will be harder to censor them and that can only be a good thing.

 

[DevilWolf47]

Would they really slap pedophelia charges on top of depictions of desecrating a corpse...?
...maybe i'm thinking too hard on it. And artistic depictions aren't actually illegal. Just highly controversial. But so is almost anything worthwhile. Maybe that's just my inner protester speaking. I've always felt that causing people to be uncomfortable was part of the job. Art, in addition to being a form of expression, can be used to make improvements by forcing people to see the horrors of the world through symbolism. Dystopic games that depict an utter collapse of morals after society has failed and everyone is fighting just to stay alive can be used to make people more conscious of their actions in the real world. And also, they can be a good way to blow off some steam, letting you blow off heads in a world where the lasting consequences are merely fictional.

Oh whoops lol I thought you were trying to be sardonic in your last post, I guess I misinterpreted ^.^ Sorry.

Yeah, I definitely see your point now. And I definitely agree with you, games should be able to delve into these highly controversial topics, without all this groundless, blind negativity. Art doesn't mean shit if it doesn't make people think, and that often means making those people uncomfortable. But so far, it seems that games have been rallied against and hated for doing things like that, which is ridiculous because other art forms like movies are often praised for being controversial.

I'm reminded of MW2. I actually hate that game, but I still respect it, mostly because of the `No Russian' level. Games just don't do things like that, and it's sad, because as horrifying as that level was, it was also very beautiful, for the reasons that you brought up. But then you have shit like Mr. Thompson or Mr. Schwarzenegger or Fox News going after us for stupid reasons, or when that 20 second cutscene got Mass Effect 2 labeled as a porn simulator, or one of any other numerous things like that. I mean there's much more controversial and graphic stuff than this in the movies these people let their kids watch. I just want games to be respected in the same way movies and books and music are.

I guess I want games to be considered art mostly because I want to have the freedom to be an artist. If there are laws and societal issues that I have to work around, it greatly restricts the freedoms I have, and it's much more difficult to say the things I want to say, in the way I want to say them. Painters, authors, musicians, and directors have it easy, so why can't I?

Well something else i might add to your statement is that there is a tendency towards fake controversy, like when Fox News advertised a naked bum as the existence of an X rated scene in an M rated game. Sometimes it actually gets quite silly. I remember at one point someone was complaining about killer7. It's a game with a major antagonist whose hobby is kidnapping orphans, raping them, ripping out their intestines and converting the organic material into Heaven Smiles, creatures who are literally walking bombs. So what is the controversy that was called out?
A "Full Blown Sex Scene." I didn't realize dry humping an comatose and wheelchair bound old man counted as a full blown sex scene. Should i call the cops on the people who dry hump in the subway and accuse them of indecent exposure?

It also seems that what generates hype is random. People freaked out about Mass Effect and Bully which were extremely mild compared to the cannibalism in [PROTOTYPE], the brutal murder of random civilians in Modern Warfare 2, or the "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" of Splinter Cell: Conviction and Black Ops. Bayonetta was more risque than Mass Effect would ever try to be, but no one called attention to the woman who is fighting enemies naked but was covered by a suit made by magical manipulation of her own hair. And no one even touched God of War which had the sex minigame which was used as a way to let people brush up on their quick time event button mashing skills and which as far as i know had most of the female characters either topless or wearing something that was transparent and defeated the point.

 

[Toriver]

So a lot of people have said they would like games to be art in order to depict and explore things like sex and violence in an artistic way. I could agree with that, if I could think of a game that actually does this without cheapening it in some way in order to sell copies. As of now... I got nothing. The vast majority of violence and pretty much every sexual reference in games are completely gratuitous, meant solely for the amusement of the user. And in most cases, this gratuity is necessary to make the game fun. Unfortunately, it then also makes it difficult to take games seriously as art when this happens. You can't really have a game that says, "War and violence are horrible," then proceed to reward the player for getting 100 headshots. Such things defeat the purpose. I'm not suggesting that a game can't be both a powerful artistic message and a top-tier title to play. We just haven't found one yet. And as long as we demand Mortal Kombat levels of blood in our games and reduce sex to T&A (more bluntly, treat such issues like 12-year-olds), such a game is not likely to be made and given proper appreciation. Developers will continue to produce mostly gratuitous sex and violence because that's what sells. If anything, the California law would possibly have that advantage: without those 12-year-olds gobbling up GTA, there would be less pressure to fill such games with those things in order to sell, and maybe developers could then feel more free to explore more serious issues in games with less of an excuse for the media to cry, "They're corrupting our children!" If we can show developers we can be trusted to be more mature about our games, maybe they will explore a little more true maturity in games themselves.

TLR version: You want games to be art to have an excuse for sex and violence? Make a game that actually treats sex and violence like an adult, and be sure only adults play it, first.

 

[DarthFennec]

Well something else i might add to your statement is that there is a tendency towards fake controversy, like when Fox News advertised a naked bum as the existence of an X rated scene in an M rated game. Sometimes it actually gets quite silly. I remember at one point someone was complaining about killer7. It's a game with a major antagonist whose hobby is kidnapping orphans, raping them, ripping out their intestines and converting the organic material into Heaven Smiles, creatures who are literally walking bombs. So what is the controversy that was called out?
A "Full Blown Sex Scene." I didn't realize dry humping an comatose and wheelchair bound old man counted as a full blown sex scene. Should i call the cops on the people who dry hump in the subway and accuse them of indecent exposure?

It also seems that what generates hype is random. People freaked out about Mass Effect and Bully which were extremely mild compared to the cannibalism in [PROTOTYPE], the brutal murder of random civilians in Modern Warfare 2, or the "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" of Splinter Cell: Conviction and Black Ops. Bayonetta was more risque than Mass Effect would ever try to be, but no one called attention to the woman who is fighting enemies naked but was covered by a suit made by magical manipulation of her own hair. And no one even touched God of War which had the sex minigame which was used as a way to let people brush up on their quick time event button mashing skills and which as far as i know had most of the female characters either topless or wearing something that was transparent and defeated the point.

Exactly! This is precisely the problem!

I'm fine with controversy in games, in fact I love the idea of controversial games, but only if the games deserve it. The best art has controversial elements to it, and some people love it, and others hate it, but it's almost always deserved because in almost every case, the artist put it there for just that purpose: to make us think and react. But when the trolls at Fox start telling people about all this stupid, fake controversy surrounding games, that's a step backward. Another step backward is when all the parents get involved. If there's a controversial movie, usually the people who don't really care for movies don't give a rat's ass, but I guess it's not the same for games. I think it's because the parents are laboring under the falsity that games are toys for children, and therefore, their children will be affected by these things if they don't take action against them. Of course, games have never been toys exclusively for children. Maybe the misconception comes from the term `video game', as if games are always things for kids. In that case, we may need a rebranding, but I don't really care for that idea. Maybe we just wait.

 

[SleepyHalo3]

If video games can be considered art it would legitimize the idea that video games have value beyond just playing them in mainstream society. That video games can teach players something unique and special.