Why do you like Obama?

[Bronzebow]

I think you and I agree on a lot of things. You don't trust the government. I don't trust corporations. You'd have government streamlined. I'd have corporations abolished altogether, heh. I do not know what a smaller fed would look like today, and you really can't say that you do, either.

That seems to sum it up pretty nicely. As a libertarian, it's pretty obvious how I lean/where I come from, but we could both quote examples to each other all day and get nowhere fast. I myself am going to vote third party because I think it's the best route for me, and I respect the same for people voting for Obama (unless it's a vote for Not Republican.)

The point I was talking about with the telecoms was the retroactive immunity being granted to them. The NSA bunkers over at AT&T, Sprint, just about all the big name telecommunications have been recording and spying on Americans without as much as a warrant, directly opposite to our fourth amendment rights. Attempts at discovery were met with opposition from the white house, the president-in-stupid claiming state secrets. EFF and a few other awesome organizations tried to bring a lawsuit to figure out exactly what was happening, all around the time FISA + retro immune was being brought a second time (since it was shot down the first).

It passed. SCOTUS dismissed the lawsuits. Even though these companies did some big ******* bad stuff at the request of the executive branch, the federal government denied citizens the right to bring lawsuits to these companies because "they were combating terr'ists." So not only were our rights horribly trampled (don't get me started on the faulty idea that more data = better data), citizens were denied even the most basic way to determine how deep the rabbit hole went.

Instead, now we have corporations running the show by penning legislation and getting it in the door through their paid senators. That is what a strong fed has brought us. When you say you want corporations under control, keep in mind that they are the ones that will pen their own regulations. Yes, the idea of a small federal government relies on people doing their own research and figure out what needs to be done. Any form of government, save a dictatorship which would prevent citizens the abilities to do such, does. I might point out that in this case this is exactly what has happened.

(might be off on the time line, as I'm going off memory, but the important points are still correct.)

 

[sneakypenguin]

also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.

As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.

Because we love freedom over equality.

What freedom? Capitalism has nothing to do with freedom. Not personal freedom, anyways. You are living in a caked glossy opium dream world if you really believe those words.
The equality you speak of has to do with survival and well being, not personal freedoms.
Republicans are happy to regulate our personal freedoms - anti abortion, anti gay marriage, incarceration without due evidence, the war on drugs (which is just another business and does nothing to address the actual problem). The market governs our health care. Our ability to buy homes. The Capitalist market allows for the outsourcing of thousands of jobs to foreign soil. The pollution of our air and our water. Now, all fish are poisonous to eat. You feed enough fish to your kid, and they'll develop led poisoning.

A free market with a social totalitarianism, that's what Capitalist freedom amounts to in the Republican party.

What the fuck kind of horrible freedom is that?
American Freedom, I guess.

Jobs going overseas is not always a bad thing, other countries have a much higher productive efficiency than we do. Plus those jobs are coming back! because those low wage workers in other countries are pushing for higher earnings(at least in India). ... how does the capitalist market pollute our air and water? I just don't see it I went to the gulf of mexico and you could see 80 feet straight down to the bottom. flying out west you can see300+ miles in either direction. So the environment is looking good from where i stand.

Of course the market controls health care(in some ways) and if we get home loans and such I guess we just differ on believing if that's good or bad

capitalism is personal freedom, it provides me with a economic system that rewards extremly hard work, inovation, competition. It's one of the few systems in which one person can start from little work hard create something new and make it big.

 

[Godheval]

You're right this thread is about Obama. If you want to leave his connections with people that lock others into a church and set fire to it out of the equation than be my guest. The fact still remains that Obama has a few, less than commendable people surrounding him. But to say I have no case at all against this Marxist is idiotic. Obama wants to raise taxes on the very people that make jobs in this country. When the cost of business goes up the owners decide to cut their costs and the people in their employ are just another business expense on the balance sheet. Obama's policies, if accepted by a potentially liberal congress, will cost jobs across the board.

Uh...did Raila Odinga himself lock people up in a church and burn them? Did he sanction it? What evidence do you have of any of this? Oh, none? Of course not, because that would be logical. And even if you had a photograph of Odinga burning the people himself, does that mean that Obama - who met the man a few times at most - supported those actions? I am certain that if such evidence had emerged, the visit would've went quite differently.

John McCain honors and respects G. Gordon Liddy, Watergate conspirator, and a man who in recent years has said on his radio show that federal agents should be shot in the head. Should we hold McCain accountable for his associations with Liddy? I don't support McCain, but I'm not making this case, either, because it's ABSURD.

Funny how after a quick and nonsensical statement, you abandon your case for Obama's associations, then move on to other "reasons" you don't support him. You make a few more statements out of hand, with no basis in fact, and with a clear misunderstanding of policy. Then you call him a Marxist. Do you even know what a Marxist is? Have you ever read the Manifesto? Probably not. To even call Obama a socialist would be inaccurate, but it'd be a lot closer than communist, which is what you are calling him. You are one ridiculous individual.

Who knows what your real reasons are for being against Obama, but what is clear is that you are going to be against him regardless of what the facts are. That makes you ignorant, and also someone that no one with any sense should be listening to...

Obama is not perfect. He has and will continue to make mistakes. But as for a reason - to the original poster - for why we can vote for him in spite of those mistakes, is because HE acknowledges mistakes he has made, and his own CAPACITY for making mistakes. He, in turn, would LISTEN to those who disagree with him. That is an admirable quality.

 

[Godheval]

Jobs going overseas is not always a bad thing, other countries have a much higher productive efficiency than we do. Plus those jobs are coming back! because those low wage workers in other countries are pushing for higher earnings(at least in India). ... how does the capitalist market pollute our air and water? I just don't see it I went to the gulf of mexico and you could see 80 feet straight down to the bottom. flying out west you can see300+ miles in either direction. So the environment is looking good from where i stand.

yzzlthtz! STOP! I know you want to, but DO NOT respond to this fool. I hope you read the above and realized that this person is beyond reason, and may even lack the capacity for logical thought.

I've asked the same questions you're asking, about why socialism is so bad, but I've stopped arguing the point with many Americans, because they don't understand or even want to understand what socialism actually is. Socialism is just another Red Herring like communism before it, something that because it is not in America is somehow anti-American. Just like how "Arab" and "Muslim" have become insults directed at Obama, and few have dared to ask "So what if he was?" This country and a lot of the people in it have a sort of "with us or against us" mentality that may ultimately destroy them. You cannot reason with these kinds of people.

 

[Godheval]

Yes, the idea of a small federal government relies on people doing their own research and figure out what needs to be done. Any form of government, save a dictatorship which would prevent citizens the abilities to do such, does. I might point out that in this case this is exactly what has happened.

Funny that you and I, in our mutual distaste for the current workings of government and corporations would propose solutions on opposite ends of the spectrum. While you're a Libertarian, I must confess that my ideal form of government would be some kind of benevolent dictatorship. Of course I recognize that it is a government that could not exist beyond theory, due to the seemingly inherent moral failings of most - if not all - human beings, such that there would be no worthy candidate for the position.

It is this same cynicism towards my fellow human beings (Americans in particular) that makes me not Libertarian, because I do not trust "the people" to rule themselves. I feel that they must answer to some higher moral (and legal) authority, lest they truly become animals acting on their basest instincts. If I saw evidence to the contrary, and on a large scale, I might be intrigued by the Libertarian position.

 

[yzzlthtz]

also, his platform is quite socialist regarding many topics.

As long as I live I will never understand the pathological American hatred of socialism.

Because we love freedom over equality.

What freedom? Capitalism has nothing to do with freedom. Not personal freedom, anyways. You are living in a caked glossy opium dream world if you really believe those words.
The equality you speak of has to do with survival and well being, not personal freedoms.
Republicans are happy to regulate our personal freedoms - anti abortion, anti gay marriage, incarceration without due evidence, the war on drugs (which is just another business and does nothing to address the actual problem). The market governs our health care. Our ability to buy homes. The Capitalist market allows for the outsourcing of thousands of jobs to foreign soil. The pollution of our air and our water. Now, all fish are poisonous to eat. You feed enough fish to your kid, and they'll develop led poisoning.

A free market with a social totalitarianism, that's what Capitalist freedom amounts to in the Republican party.

What the fuck kind of horrible freedom is that?
American Freedom, I guess.

Jobs going overseas is not always a bad thing, other countries have a much higher productive efficiency than we do. Plus those jobs are coming back! because those low wage workers in other countries are pushing for higher earnings(at least in India). ... how does the capitalist market pollute our air and water? I just don't see it I went to the gulf of mexico and you could see 80 feet straight down to the bottom. flying out west you can see300+ miles in either direction. So the environment is looking good from where i stand.

Of course the market controls health care(in some ways) and if we get home loans and such I guess we just differ on believing if that's good or bad

capitalism is personal freedom, it provides me with a economic system that rewards extremly hard work, inovation, competition. It's one of the few systems in which one person can start from little work hard create something new and make it big.

HAHA! How does it pollute our water!! HAHA! you can see "straight to the bottom!" "Environment is looking good from where i stand!" That's terrific! So, if the environment out of eyesight is ravaged (of which there is more than you can imagine), but your back yard still looks nice, you're perfectly content?

eat fish every day for a few years. you will probably die. why? mercury and led poisoning. talk to parents who have discovered this the hard way.

We are stripping the planet of forests in the name of industry.
There is a mass of floating plastic in the middle of the ocean the size of America.
It's not the idea of Capitalism, it is the horrible resulting consumer frenzy, the deregulated waste management, the raping of our world for resources. Great, you can start your ice cream shop and win, woo hoo, but when businesses get to a certain size, they need severe regulations.
To fight things like "socialized health care" in the name of preserving capitalism is a horrible insult to poor families who work daily to the bone and get reamed if they want a medical check-up.
Have you tried to get medical insurance in this country? It's a nightmare. Hundreds of expensive policies that don't do much more than wish you well.
Have you been to an emergency room in America?
I went in once with my girlfriend who was having an asthma emergency.
It took 2 hours for us to see a doctor.

Going back to pollution-
Here, watch this. It's very informed: http://www.storyofstuff.com/

 

[sneakypenguin]

Jobs going overseas is not always a bad thing, other countries have a much higher productive efficiency than we do. Plus those jobs are coming back! because those low wage workers in other countries are pushing for higher earnings(at least in India). ... how does the capitalist market pollute our air and water? I just don't see it I went to the gulf of mexico and you could see 80 feet straight down to the bottom. flying out west you can see300+ miles in either direction. So the environment is looking good from where i stand.

yzzlthtz! STOP! I know you want to, but DO NOT respond to this fool. I hope you read the above and realized that this person is beyond reason, and may even lack the capacity for logical thought.

I've asked the same questions you're asking, about why socialism is so bad, but I've stopped arguing the point with many Americans, because they don't understand or even want to understand what socialism actually is. Socialism is just another Red Herring like communism before it, something that because it is not in America is somehow anti-American. Just like how "Arab" and "Muslim" have become insults directed at Obama, and few have dared to ask "So what if he was?" This country and a lot of the people in it have a sort of "with us or against us" mentality that may ultimately destroy them. You cannot reason with these kinds of people.

Hmmm I do very much believe I have the capacity for logical thought and am not a fool judging from my success in life. I do understand socialism i think , it's a broad set of economic theories that advocate a collective control and administration of production/idustry. It separates people into groups it divides upperclass vs lowerclass and as Karl Marx stated socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution, it being the transitional stage between capitalism and communism. Socialism is a belief that is favored by intellectuals(people who are't in the business field haha,and people who have a belief in wealth redistribution and class warfare rather than equal treatment of both classes

 

[sneakypenguin]

HAHA! How does it pollute our water!! HAHA! you can see "straight to the bottom!" "Environment is looking good from where i stand!" That's terrific! So, if the environment out of eyesight is ravaged (of which there is more than you can imagine), but your back yard still looks nice, you're perfectly content?

eat fish every day for a few years. you will probably die. why? mercury and led poisoning. talk to parents who have discovered this the hard way.

We are stripping the planet of forests in the name of industry.
There is a mass of floating plastic in the middle of the ocean the size of America.
It's not the idea of Capitalism, it is the horrible resulting consumer frenzy, the deregulated waste management, the raping of our world for resources. Great, you can start your ice cream shop and win, woo hoo, but when businesses get to a certain size, they need severe regulations.
To fight things like "socialized health care" in the name of preserving capitalism is a horrible insult to poor families who work daily to the bone and get reamed if they want a medical check-up.
Have you tried to get medical insurance in this country? It's a nightmare. Hundreds of expensive policies that don't do much more than wish you well.
Have you been to an emergency room in America?
I went in once with my girlfriend who was having an asthma emergency.
It took 2 hours for us to see a doctor.

Going back to pollution-
Here, watch this. It's very informed: http://www.storyofstuff.com/

Okay I have traveled all over the United states we are not stripping forest(unnecessarily) Have you flown in the midwest and in Utah montana califonia it is nothing but forest plains and nothingness. So I doubt we are stripping the planet of forest at least not the US.
As far as the mass of floating plastic in the ocean the size of america I'm lost on that

Yes I have been to an emergency room in america I broke my nose playing baseball went to the doctor got it exrayed and got back in time for the last two innings I have never waited more than 10 min to see somebody maybe it's just where i live.
Poor families who work daily to the bone ha people think work 45 hours a week is "to the bone" anyways they are already covered! medicare your state care etc. How can I work part time at target and get healthcare coverage just like a 25 dollar co pay for a visit, yet others can't? If healthcare is expensive to you then you did somehting wrong

 

[Chechosaurus]

I live in the UK but I still hope that Obama wins. If Macain wins then Sarah Pailin is only one 72 year old heart beat away from being president and that is a scary thought. Do we really want a creationist in charge of America? The USA is such a huge international power, there really needs to be some one who isn't retarded in the drivers seat.

Also, thinking about this. Sarah Pailin is one of the only Americans who knows where Russia is and that is another scary thought (no offence to any other Americans intended). If Pailin takes over from Macain when he dies (which doesn't seem that far away) AND she knows where Russia is... you got war. hahaha

I think Obama would just be better all around. He seems to have some good ideas and seems sensible enough. As an added bonus, he doesn't look like he eats babies.

 

[TomNook]

The best thing that could happen to the USA in their foreign relationships is Obama as president, McCain is different from Bush, but still a Republican. And to be honest, the Republican party makes many of us Dutchies barf.

There is more to foreign policy than impressing your allies. Small European countries such as the Netherlands have very few enemies. Obama just isn't a very threatening person, and thats one of the reasons I don't like him. McCain may not be very likable to you leftist Europeans, but he's an old angry white war veteran who was tortured, and thats what the enemies of the US would either be afraid of or grudgingly respect.

 

[Godheval]

Hmmm I do very much believe I have the capacity for logical thought and am not a fool judging from my success in life.

Success and foolishness are mutually exclusive concepts. There are many, MANY rich, stupid people.

I do understand socialism i think , it's a broad set of economic theories that advocate a collective control and administration of production/idustry.

Good. Note "broad set", and "theories", meaning that rather than criticizing it altogether, one should examine and refine certain aspects of it, where the theory is not applied correctly, i.e. to the benefit of society as a whole.

It separates people into groups it divides upperclass vs lowerclass and as Karl Marx stated socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution, it being the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.

Yet...those governments that could be called socialist have yet to transition to communism. And if in your opposition to socialism you're implying that capitalism does not create a two-tier society, then you're delusional. Socialism is sort of like a compromise between capitalism and communism, in that it provides a basic bottom line for ALL citizens - making sure they're healthy, well-fed, and protected - while still allowing individuals the freedom to build on that bottom line and become wealthy, be it through hard work or opportunity. Sounds okay to me!

Socialism is a belief that is favored by intellectuals(people who are't in the business field haha,and people who have a belief in wealth redistribution and class warfare rather than equal treatment of both classes

And here is where you demonstrate the aforementioned foolishness. Damn it, and to think we almost made it through a whole post!

So what you're suggesting here is that there are no intellectuals in the business world? I'm sure a lot of business owners and economists would be insulted. Oh, and when did "intellectual" become an insult? I must've missed the memo.

Second, how do you separate "wealth redistribution" from "equal treatment"? The whole POINT of wealth distribution is to ensure that those at the bottom are getting at least what they NEED, while checking the excesses of those at the top. We currently live in a country where the richest amongst us waste money on shit like gold plated toilet seats, while others live hand to mouth. That's equality at work, for sure!

Oh, but wait, let me guess. That rich person with the golden toilet seat probably "worked really hard" to get it, while those people living hand to mouth must be lazy do-nothings waiting for handouts, right?

A number of insults comes to mind, and I can assure you that "intellectual" is not one of them. But instead of using any of them, I'll be civil and just shake my head in disdain.

 

[Godheval]

CUS HES BLACK! AND I RESPECT THE BROTHER!

I hate you.

 

[Imitation Saccharin]

There is more to foreign policy than impressing your allies. Small European countries such as the Netherlands have very few enemies. Obama just isn't a very threatening person, and thats one of the reasons I don't like him. McCain may not be very likable to you leftist Europeans, but he's an old angry white war veteran who was tortured, and thats what the enemies of the US would either be afraid of or grudgingly respect.

What the hell do they care? They're terrorists.
Unless Mccain starts populating the police with cyborg kill assassins, it's not going to make a bit of difference.

 

[TomNook]

There is more to foreign policy than impressing your allies. Small European countries such as the Netherlands have very few enemies. Obama just isn't a very threatening person, and thats one of the reasons I don't like him. McCain may not be very likable to you leftist Europeans, but he's an old angry white war veteran who was tortured, and thats what the enemies of the US would either be afraid of or grudgingly respect.

What the hell do they care? They're terrorists.
Unless Mccain starts populating the police with cyborg kill assassins, it's not going to make a bit of difference.

They want to kill us and tear down our government, they probably care who wins more than most of us do.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Socialism also lowers the top line of the economy. I just find something wrong with a system that, if I should claw my way to the top, forces me to get rid of a large portion of my money so that someone who couldn't be bothered to go to college gets benefits.

 

[Godheval]

There is more to foreign policy than impressing your allies. Small European countries such as the Netherlands have very few enemies. Obama just isn't a very threatening person, and thats one of the reasons I don't like him. McCain may not be very likable to you leftist Europeans, but he's an old angry white war veteran who was tortured, and thats what the enemies of the US would either be afraid of or grudgingly respect.

Yeah, because fear and intimidation go a long way in earning international respect. This can't seriously be a reason for supporting McCain over Obama, can it? No one would be afraid of the old cripple who can't raise his hands above his head. They're afraid of the stockpile of nuclear weapons, super-powered army, and stranglehold over the global economy.

People who are afraid are the most dangerous, so I'd rather have someone who others ACTUALLY trust and respect (rather than begrudgingly). Bush put North Korea in the "Axis of Evil", said all sorts of fear-mongering things, and how did they respond? They test-launched a missile. Boy did that strategy work! Now we're sitting at the table with them, negotiating, and making a lot more progress.

Capacity for negotiation? Advantage: Obama

Does this change his capacity to blow an enemy to hell if necessary? Not at all. But whether or not it would be "necessary" is something he would give due deliberation.

 

[sneakypenguin]

Socialism also lowers the top line of the economy. I just find something wrong with a system that, if I should claw my way to the top, forces me to get rid of a large portion of my money so that someone who couldn't be bothered to go to college gets benefits.

Amen, It's funny how the people advocating wealth redistribution are usually the ones on the receiving end.