why do you think the amazing anime series Bleach ended so soon?

[KOMega]

so soon? I'd argue that it has been a long time coming.

I mean I didn't expect it to end either, but for the reason that it was just probably going to keep going and going rather than be left behind by Naruto and One Piece.

Bleach is a long ass series, and I know there are even longer ones out there and I say they are also long ass series that are too long for their own good -_-

I'm rather indifferent to Bleach and more fixed on any series that are too damn long.

Anyways, while I haven't kept up myself, I hear that Bleach seems to be suffering a form of power creep in that Ichigo is now part-everything and has the powers of everything up to the kitchen sink. It looks like it hit a point of diminishing returns and the growing popularity of bleach seems to have almost leveled off, if not dropped.

 

[ERaptor]

It would be cool if some people could be a bit less pretentious wankers when responding. I hate how every discussion about Anime turns into "You WATCH that show? Go watch x instead, its clearly better becaue fuck opinions, amirite?"

On a more serious note, I think it actually speaks positively for a series if it has the guts to actually finish. Dont get me wrong, I was heavily dissapointed when I reached the last Soul Eater Episode, or, being the whiny little crybaby I am, felt unsatisfied with the ending of Elfenlied (Only to give two examples). But I still heavily recommend these Animes to friends who ask for suggestions, and I think part of the reason I gladly do so is that I can be totally honest and say "Personally, I liked the WHOLE series." compared to stuff like one Piece or Naruto, or even Bleach, where I tend to qualify the statements with "Cant really say how the new Episodes fare tough.". Once these Behemoths hit the 200 Episode mark, its hard to keep track, and you're almost BOUND to have little tidbits you dislike here and there. Endings are bittersweet, but it opens up opportunity for new and equally awesome Animes/Mangas to pop up.

And, as a little sidenote to Bleach. My absolute favorite arc is probably Hueco Mundo. Kenpachi vs Nnoitra is rank 1 on my "best Anime fights"-List. The newer stuff was a bit too freaky even for my tastes, and the series lost a little of its sting now that you know all Shikai and Bankai of the main cast, which robs me of this delicious "Oh, what's he gonna get out NOW?"-feeling. But I still occasionally read a few chapters jsut for the heck of it.

Now, go watch Berserk, and never look back.

Hear, Hear

Now that is an anime that ran way too short,

but Bleach? Come on, even most of it's fans admit it's got too much filler and a lot of pacing issues.

Berserk isnt running anymore? Come on! I just thought the chief was ultraslow with Releases!

 

[00slash00]

That's not really short, by any stretch of the imagination. I personally never liked Bleach because it felt like just a repeat of the Naruto formula. One person does well for a while, then the other person suddenly gets more powerful and destroys them. If one person is winning the battle at the end of an episode but hasn't actually defeated the person yet, you can be damn sure the other person will suddenly be winning the fight in the next episode.

Hold up. You're right, but that did not start with Naruto. The progenitor of that formula is Dragon Ball Z, and that is why most guys born around 1990 look at Bleach and Naruto and say, "Yeah, I've already seen that" and ignore them.

I know it didn't start with Naruto but I guess I specifically mentioned that anime because that was when I couldn't handle it anymore. DBZ I can overlook mostly because of nostalgia. Also, with DBZ it was less about taking turns winning and more just about the side characters getting beat up until Goku showed up

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

Berserk isnt running anymore? Come on! I just thought the chief was ultraslow with Releases!

Manga is still ongoing, they were referring to the anime from the '90s that finished at the end of the Golden Age arc (I think).

 

[AustinN]

They talk about two methods for story telling, gardeners and architects, which is something George R.R Martin stated. Gardeners make it up as they go, Architects plan. Shounen by its nature means the writers will make it up as they go because of how they need to keep making stuff up to drag it out.

Bleach is an exception to this rule though. If you look back through the manga you can clearly see a number of incidences of foreshadowing and planning ahead.
The latest manga arc has even resolved foreshadowing and questions from the first few chapters.

Don't exaggerate. Yes, the last arc does show that some things were planned long term, but it's still far outnumbered by how many asspulls there were in the series, like Yammy being the 0th Espada, Ichigo super hollow form (which wasn't explained after the fact), Chojiro knowing bankai...I can go on and on. A lot of the stuff in the last arc wasn't foreshadowed well, either.

Anyway, I'll seriously never understand how some people can be unaware that among the general anime community, Bleach is generally considered a complete joke and it's mainly seen as a prime example of how NOT to do a shonen series.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the blame on filler, either. It's more likely than not that Bleach lost popularity because the main story wasn't that much better written than filler. Hell, I think people are sometimes overcritical of Bleach's filler. The Captain Amagi arc actually had a little bit of world building, and focused on aspects of the setting that the main story ignores. The Zanpakuto arc also had a lot of nice character development.

I personally suspect that Bleach remaining more popular in America than Japan is more due to inertia than anything. Obviously, japanese audiences have a lot more action series to choose from, while the anime market went belly up in the states. Perhaps if some of the more popular series had been brought over, or brought over sooner, people would've started to drop Bleach.

 

[Smeatza]

Since Bleach was originally supposed to end with the Soul Society arc, i just dont believe that Kubo actually left those as foreshadowing rather than him just filling in the plot holes later on.

Though given how other shounen series (read: Naruto) dumps another plot hole every third chapter or so and doesnt even try to repair the existing ones without making use of the dreaded flashback, i suppose thats something Kubo can be praised for.

I read a supposed translated interview from Kubo once that said he wanted to do 4 arcs. Two for Ichigo, one for his dad one another for Kenpachi.
I was under the impression that he's having to wrap everything up faster than he wanted to in the current manga arc due to Bleach's now waning popularity.

Did they actually plan ahead here though or did they just create the illusion that they planned ahead? Because you could argue this for other Shounen as well.

Without being a personal friend of the author I guess this would be up to individual interpretation.

Don't exaggerate.

I'm not.

Yes, the last arc does show that some things were planned long term, but it's still far outnumbered by how many asspulls there were in the series, like Yammy being the 0th Espada,

How was that an asspull? It was a minor detail. A minor detail that construed the ultimate pointlessness and lack of reliability of the numbering of the Espada.

Ichigo super hollow form (which wasn't explained after the fact)

I wouldn't call that an asspull either.
It's not like Ichigo had never transformed into a hollow form before.
And it has been explained, just not in explicit detail.

Chojiro knowing bankai...I can go on and on. A lot of the stuff in the last arc wasn't foreshadowed well, either.

There's a difference between pulling something out of ones ass and foreshadowing every tiny little insignificant detail in an entire fictional world.

Anyway, I'll seriously never understand how some people can be unaware that among the general anime community, Bleach is generally considered a complete joke and it's mainly seen as a prime example of how NOT to do a shonen series.

I'm aware of, but don't care about the pretension of the anime community.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the blame on filler, either. It's more likely than not that Bleach lost popularity because the main story wasn't that much better written than filler. Hell, I think people are sometimes overcritical of Bleach's filler. The Captain Amagi arc actually had a little bit of world building, and focused on aspects of the setting that the main story ignores. The Zanpakuto arc also had a lot of nice character development.

Really? The Amagai Arc? With that annoying as fuck loli princess who contributes absolutely nothing to the plot?
Really? The Zanpaktou Arc? The arc the ended with them winning using the power of friendship?

I personally suspect that Bleach remaining more popular in America than Japan is more due to inertia than anything. Obviously, japanese audiences have a lot more action series to choose from, while the anime market went belly up in the states. Perhaps if some of the more popular series had been brought over, or brought over sooner, people would've started to drop Bleach.

Y'know I have at least 4 friends who are fans of Bleach, yet have no interest in any other anime at all. And that's not for lack of trying. They have seen what seasoned anime experts and connoisseurs would call better anime, they don't like it.
Even if they did, they wouldn't stop liking Bleach.
For me, Bleach is like wrestling, 80's action movies, Carry On films and anime all wrapped into one awesome package.
Show me all the other series you like, Bleach isn't going to stop scratching those itches.

And in the age of the internet fansub I don't think exposure is as bad as you think.

 

[AustinN]

How was that an asspull? It was a minor detail. A minor detail that construed the ultimate pointlessness and lack of reliability of the numbering of the Espada.

A minor detail? Finding out that in the main group of antagonists, the guy who was the weakest was actually the strongest, a minor detail? No. What makes it an asspull is the fact that it was directly stated that the Espada only went from 10 to 1. Furthermore, despite supposedly being the strongest Espada, Yammy gets whipped by the guys who had trouble with the 5th and 7th Espada, who only treat him as an annoyance.

I wouldn't call that an asspull either.
It's not like Ichigo had never transformed into a hollow form before.
And it has been explained, just not in explicit detail.

Are you forgetting that Ichigo was dead when that happened? While Ichigo's hollow has had different forms before, none of them were anything close to the uber hollow. Plus, Ichigo had already died once before, and he needed to be brought back by Orihime. And no, it wasn't explained beyond "the hollow did it". The context of the fight also makes it seem like the writer wrote himself into a corner by making the villain too powerful, so he had to pull a new ability out of nowhere so the hero could win.

There's a difference between pulling something out of ones ass and foreshadowing every tiny little insignificant detail in an entire fictional world.

Bankai's supposed to be important. They talk about the people who obtain it are destined to be the best of the best. Chojiro had done next to nothing in the series, and there was no reason at all to think he had that kind of power. What makes it most damning is the fact that Ichigo knocked him out with one blow, without using bankai. And then we're told he had the power of a captain?

Frankly, you don't seem to be able to remember plot points well, because you don't realize when one plot development contradicts what's shown before.

I'm aware of, but don't care about the pretension of the anime community.

Pointing out that a series is heavily flawed and arguing that it embodies a lot of the problems that tend to plague shonen is not pretension.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the blame on filler, either. It's more likely than not that Bleach lost popularity because the main story wasn't that much better written than filler. Hell, I think people are sometimes overcritical of Bleach's filler. The Captain Amagi arc actually had a little bit of world building, and focused on aspects of the setting that the main story ignores. The Zanpakuto arc also had a lot of nice character development.

Really? The Amagai Arc? With that annoying as fuck loli princess who contributes absolutely nothing to the plot?
Really? The Zanpaktou Arc? The arc the ended with them winning using the power of friendship?

The Amagai arc wasn't great, but what I think was nice about it is that it showed focus on the noble houses, something the main series skips over. It also focused on the day to day operations of the Shinigami, which I think is something that would've benefited the series. In discussions on what a terrible military organization the Shinigami are, I've also seen it noted how it's sad that a filler arc pointed out the problems with their organization far better than the main story ever did.

You're overlooking the characterizations the Zanpakuto arc brought. Zanpakuto are supposed to represent their wielders. The arc brought a lot of insight into the characters by comparing them with their spirits, such as Hisagi's sword hinting at a repressed bloodlust, Soi Fon's sword being the complete opposite of her personality, and Kyoraku's sword possibly representing that he has trouble expressing his feelings.

And I still say the main series often wasn't any better than filler. The end of the Deicide arc was as anticlimatic as anything that happened in filler.

Y'know I have at least 4 friends who are fans of Bleach, yet have no interest in any other anime at all. And that's not for lack of trying. They have seen what seasoned anime experts and connoisseurs would call better anime, they don't like it.

That's a pretty small pool of representatives.

And in the age of the internet fansub I don't think exposure is as bad as you think.

I admit that it is just my own personal theory, but I think you're underestimating the casual viewers. There are a lot of people who aren't comfortable watching subbed videos, even if it's a normal thing for most anime enthusiasts. One Piece is the most popular series in Japan, and it usually gets a lot less criticism than Naruto or Bleach does. I think the most obvious reason for that is because it got a 4Kids dub that was considered bad even by their standards, and even after it got a better dub by Funimation it was soon taken off the air. Because of that, it seems it was never given the chance to catch on like it's competitors did. I also hear that Toonami is considered a gateway to a lot of anime, to the point that fans get excited when they hear that a series will be brought to it, and look forward to the exposure it'll get.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

watch 'Kill La Kill'... you WILL.. be entertained.. in more ways than one

Given the last episode, FUCK YES. The show has both excellent action and memorable characters with quite a bit of subtext in the actions and dialogue made. It is both creative without being too pretentious and yet has it's big human moments.

It is currently the top show of the year and it got there for a reason

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Bleach? I really liked a good portion of it, the Soul Society arc in particular, but it...it's just too god damned long.

It's the same problem I have with the other big name shounen animes (one piece, naruto, etc.); it's just way too much content to plow through in order to, maybe get some kind of resolution or payoff.

I think I much prefer the 26-52 episode range, provided that it wraps up the story and doesn't fall in to the trap of teasing a second season that will never come...



...Spice and Wolf...Why? @ _ @

Speaking as someone who has read the light novels of Spice and Wolf, You are better off having the ending of the series.

But yeah, a good show should be able to wrap up it's story without a teaser though. In the age of companies attempting to make franchisees (seriously, index is huge there) though, don't expect that for a while. Even the show of your avatar, "Problem Children are Coming from Another World", has only gone through 2 out of 10 light novels currently released

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Speaking as someone who has read the light novels of Spice and Wolf, You are better off having the ending of the series.

But yeah, a good show should be able to wrap up it's story without a teaser though. In the age of companies attempting to make franchisees (seriously, index is huge there) though, don't expect that for a while. Even the show of your avatar, "Problem Children are Coming from Another World", has only gone through 2 out of 10 light novels currently released

I've actually just started reading them. Liking it so far.

And even Problem Children didn't get a full 13 episode half season. More than a little depressing. 'Twas a good, entertaining show. Beautiful art too.

 

[balladbird]

I read a supposed translated interview from Kubo once that said he wanted to do 4 arcs. Two for Ichigo, one for his dad one another for Kenpachi.
I was under the impression that he's having to wrap everything up faster than he wanted to in the current manga arc due to Bleach's now waning popularity.

What interview was that? I consider myself quite well informed when it comes to news relating to bleach, I was huge into its fandom for years, but I never, ever heard of Kubo wanting to do a storyarc around Kenpachi. For one thing, Kenpachi's popularity is a fairly american phenomenon, and Kubo has never expressed particular love for him over any other characters, that would make him want to elevate kenpachi up above the dearth of characters far more deserving of their own arcs...

Some of that is personal feelings, I admit. Kenpachi's appeal is forever lost on me. He's a boring caveman that is only enjoyed because Western fans love boring badass types.

The only statement I recall Kubo making regarding his future plans for the manga came toward the end of the Aizen arc. He stated that his future plans for the manga involved a miniature arc (the fullbringer arc) and one more large arc (the 1000 year blood war.) He said we would learn about Ichigo's dad, but he never ACTUALLY said it would be its own storyarc. Fans just assumed that and let their imaginations run away with them.

By that, he's going as he always planned to go, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's rushing. As long as the tankoban for Bleach sell well, he's in no danger of cancellation, regardless of the ratings in SJ.




To get more on topic, flagging ratings were only part of the reason the Bleach anime ended early. The other part is that Bleach's story is a logistical nightmare for an anime team. Entire storyarcs take place over the span of just 2-3 days, and plot points hang open for long periods of time, making the instertion of filler arcs a pain. Of all the filler arcs in Bleach, only one actually found a comfy hole in the story to insert itself. the others just kind of... happened abruptly, with even the next-episode previews making fun of how "out of nowhere" they are.

ratings were definitely a signficant factor though... especially considering it was cancelled for an anime adaption of "rock lee's springtime of youth".... Now, I get a lot of the criticism for bleach, but to say that japanese viewers would rather watch a show that has content like a whole episode devoted to Naruto trying to find a bathroom... Yeah, that's harsh.

 

[AustinN]

For one thing, Kenpachi's popularity is a fairly american phenomenon, and Kubo has never expressed particular love for him over any other characters, that would make him want to elevate kenpachi up above the dearth of characters far more deserving of their own arcs...

I disagree. I feel that Kenpachi's treatment in the manga points to Kubo having a particular favoritism towards him. For example, compare his fight record with many of the other characters. Kenpachi almost never loses, despite the story telling us that he's not that skilled, and handicaps himself. He was one of the few captains who didn't end up getting their ass kicked during the Arrancar arc. During the Fullbringer arc, he beat his opponent with one shot. And during the initial Vandenreich invasion, most of the captains struggled to do any damage to the Sternritter, while Kenpachi killed three of them easily. While that story did feature one of his few defeats, I find the fact that it was entirely offscreen suspicious.

But of course, the biggest example of Kubo favoring him is the fact that Unohana was killed off for the sole purpose of making him stronger. Many fans have noted how stupid this is. Unohana is not only one of their best fighters, but one of their best healers, meaning the Shinigami are screwed if the Vandenreich manage to kill enough of them. We're also informed that Kenpachi was stronger than her, even as a child. Then of course is the fact that, despite all of the hype about Unohana, her most important contribution to the story was to basically be a training dummy. Everything about her was only important in how it related to Kenpachi. What's her greatest regret? Making Kenpachi limit himself. What lets her die happy? Knowing that Kenpachi has reached his full potential. Apparently female characters can't stand on their own, they have to be defined by their relationship to a male character. It's no wonder so many people consider it a terrible example of sexism in shonen.

None of this means that Kubo wanted to do a story arc about Kenpachi--I've only heard that here too--but my point is that I feel there's a lot of evidence that Kubo favors Kenpachi, at the expense of the other characters.

 

[Smeatza]

Whoa, super long post.

What interview was that? I consider myself quite well informed when it comes to news relating to bleach, I was huge into its fandom for years, but I never, ever heard of Kubo wanting to do a storyarc around Kenpachi.

It was more than half a decade ago when I read it so I wouldn't be able to reproduce it. I also said "supposed" as I was doubtful of its accuracy even then. More so now someone who seems relatively informed (yourself) is doubting it.

For one thing, Kenpachi's popularity is a fairly american phenomenon, and Kubo has never expressed particular love for him over any other characters, that would make him want to elevate kenpachi up above the dearth of characters far more deserving of their own arcs...

Well he did state in an interview that Kenpachi was one of his favourite characters to draw.
Besides that the only other reason would be that he's was (up until recently) one of the characters with the most unexplained back story to explore.
Probably some wishful thinking on my part as well.

Some of that is personal feelings, I admit. Kenpachi's appeal is forever lost on me. He's a boring caveman that is only enjoyed because Western fans love boring badass types.

I'm slightly offended, he's my favourite character on the show.
And while he's certainly badass I don't find him boring, perhaps I read too much into it but I find him to be one of the deeper characters of the show.

The only statement I recall Kubo making regarding his future plans for the manga came toward the end of the Aizen arc. He stated that his future plans for the manga involved a miniature arc (the fullbringer arc) and one more large arc (the 1000 year blood war.) He said we would learn about Ichigo's dad, but he never ACTUALLY said it would be its own storyarc. Fans just assumed that and let their imaginations run away with them.

Then I seem to have got the wrong end of the stick through a combination of bad translation and second hand sources.

A minor detail? Finding out that in the main group of antagonists, the guy who was the weakest was actually the strongest, a minor detail?

But he wasn't the strongest, and that was the point.

No. What makes it an asspull is the fact that it was directly stated that the Espada only went from 10 to 1.

By a minor character who was no way near the inner circle of Aizen's group. Aizen's group.

Furthermore, despite supposedly being the strongest Espada, Yammy gets whipped by the guys who had trouble with the 5th and 7th Espada, who only treat him as an annoyance.

That was the point. Yammy's very existence shows that the numbering of the Espada was mostly arbitrary.

Are you forgetting that Ichigo was dead when that happened?

Was he? I mean he had a hole in his chest, but he was still capable of hearing and internal thought.
People have been sliced clean in two and survived in Bleach, what's a little hole in the chest?

While Ichigo's hollow has had different forms before, none of them were anything close to the uber hollow. Plus, Ichigo had already died once before, and he needed to be brought back by Orihime.

A much more powerful Ichigo stands to make a much much more powerful hollow form.
And Ichigo had never died before. Well except for the first time Urahara got his powers back. But he wasn't revived by Orihime then.

And no, it wasn't explained beyond "the hollow did it".

Which is why I used the word "explicit."

The context of the fight also makes it seem like the writer wrote himself into a corner by making the villain too powerful, so he had to pull a new ability out of nowhere so the hero could win.

Whatever, it wasn't an asspull.

Bankai's supposed to be important. They talk about the people who obtain it are destined to be the best of the best. Chojiro had done next to nothing in the series, and there was no reason at all to think he had that kind of power.

The cultural expectations and the actual reality of a fictional world are not always the same thing.

What makes it most damning is the fact that Ichigo knocked him out with one blow, without using bankai. And then we're told he had the power of a captain?

A bankai does not mean captain level power. Using a bankai is only one part of the captain proficiency test.
By that logic one would have to say Ikkaku and Renji are at captain level. Which they clearly aren't.

Frankly, you don't seem to be able to remember plot points well, because you don't realize when one plot development contradicts what's shown before.

Frankly, you don't seem to have thought about this at all. You're not even that clear on the events of the show.

Pointing out that a series is heavily flawed and arguing that it embodies a lot of the problems that tend to plague shonen is not pretension.

Personal distastes are not objective flaws. When you present them as such you are being pretentious.
Thinking that what the "general anime community" says matters in the slightest is also pretty pretentious.
The implication being made aware of these opinions would change the opinions of fans of the show is also pretty pretentious.

The Amagai arc wasn't great, but what I think was nice about it is that it showed focus on the noble houses, something the main series skips over. It also focused on the day to day operations of the Shinigami, which I think is something that would've benefited the series. In discussions on what a terrible military organization the Shinigami are, I've also seen it noted how it's sad that a filler arc pointed out the problems with their organization far better than the main story ever did.

So it explored all of the boring, mundane crap, hmmmm I see.

You're overlooking the characterizations the Zanpakuto arc brought. Zanpakuto are supposed to represent their wielders. The arc brought a lot of insight into the characters by comparing them with their spirits, such as Hisagi's sword hinting at a repressed bloodlust, Soi Fon's sword being the complete opposite of her personality, and Kyoraku's sword possibly representing that he has trouble expressing his feelings.

Well besides the fact that all filler material is non-canon.
That's about 0.5% of that arc.

And I still say the main series often wasn't any better than filler. The end of the Deicide arc was as anticlimatic as anything that happened in filler.

Oh I've read you say it. Outside of non-asspulls I've still yet to read why.

That's a pretty small pool of representatives.

Oh I'm sorry, let me go and hire a research company for the sake of this forum post.
Get a grip dude, it was an informal example that illustrated the points following it, which you left out.

I admit that it is just my own personal theory, but I think you're underestimating the casual viewers. There are a lot of people who aren't comfortable watching subbed videos, even if it's a normal thing for most anime enthusiasts. One Piece is the most popular series in Japan, and it usually gets a lot less criticism than Naruto or Bleach does. I think the most obvious reason for that is because it got a 4Kids dub that was considered bad even by their standards, and even after it got a better dub by Funimation it was soon taken off the air. Because of that, it seems it was never given the chance to catch on like it's competitors did. I also hear that Toonami is considered a gateway to a lot of anime, to the point that fans get excited when they hear that a series will be brought to it, and look forward to the exposure it'll get.

I know there's this stereotype that people are dumb and can't stand reading subtitles, but for the most part I don't think it's true. It's a barrier, sure. It might be the thing that pushes them over the edge into not wanting to watch a movie/series, but I don't think it's ever the sole reason. At least not in the vast majority of cases.
The next question would be, are "casual viewers" the ones responsible for Bleach's popularity (or a significant portion of it) in America?

 

[lord canti]

They talk about two methods for story telling, gardeners and architects, which is something George R.R Martin stated. Gardeners make it up as they go, Architects plan. Shounen by its nature means the writers will make it up as they go because of how they need to keep making stuff up to drag it out.

Bleach is an exception to this rule though. If you look back through the manga you can clearly see a number of incidences of foreshadowing and planning ahead.
The latest manga arc has even resolved foreshadowing and questions from the first few chapters.

OT: Isn't the reason the anime ended pretty clear? Because it wasn't that popular in Japan anymore.
As to why that is, it's hard to say. I personally think it had a lot to do with the atrocious filler that Bleach liked to pump out on a semi-regular basis. I reckon they left a good chunk of the fans with a severe case of burnout after they had to sit through full arcs of shitty filler. They probably moved onto something where that wasn't a problem.

One piece is also an an exception to this rule. Oda already has the entire series planned out and even a guide for people to follow if he ever passes away before the series ends.

 

[Lilikins]

Bleach was an excellent show, no doubt. It had the ability to go on that long creating arcs etc. Most anime cant and wont go that much in depth simply for the reason of well..why?

Look at shows like Higurashi No ni kiri (hope I got it right, its from memory) or something like Elfen Leid, they gave a powerful message and a bombastic show but just..ended, as they should. Why drag a story out longer if its 'finished'? Itd be like..first thing that pops to mind, continueing the harry potter series, it ended with him whipping Voldemort, so theres no reason to continue it. Most things, atleast in my opinion, are best if they have a finish. Theres nothing more aggrevating for me then 'oh...ok so the strongest being in the universe got whooped...so the person that beat it is now the strongest, but wait, theres someone whos 10x stronger then that other strongest person' How...did this person go unnoticed the entire time. Biggest offender of this in my opinion, though I absolutely adored the show, but then I also personally found it was dragged out waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long, Dragonball. If it wouldve had a definete end at some point, I wouldve been completely happy with it. But then after Boo it was just sorta, meh, cant be bothered anymore, lost interest.

 

[AustinN]

But he wasn't the strongest, and that was the point.

Oh please. It's never actually discussed by the characters that he didn't live up to his potential. They don't explain why he's the only Espada whose number changes. It had no effect on the story whatsoever. You're assuming things that aren't actually discussed.

By a minor character who was no way near the inner circle of Aizen's group. Aizen's group.

It was still a direct statement that had no evidence to show that it was wrong. And given how poorly explained it is in story, I find it far more likely that it was a last minute addition than some super secret plot point.

That was the point. Yammy's very existence shows that the numbering of the Espada was mostly arbitrary.

Hardly. Aside from the Segunda form, another asspull, the Espada generally showed a consistent increase in strength. Even Stark and Halibel seemed like they were held back more by their better natures than by their power.

Was he? I mean he had a hole in his chest, but he was still capable of hearing and internal thought.
People have been sliced clean in two and survived in Bleach, what's a little hole in the chest?

I'll admit that I'm not sure if it was directly established that Ichigo was dead or just so heavily implied that it's a commonly accepted fact, but what's clear is that he was on the brink of death both times. Ichigo's hollow may like to pop out when Ichigo's in trouble, but there was zero indication that it could bring him back from the brink of death.

Which is why I used the word "explicit."

It's still a non explanation on the level of "a wizard did it".

The cultural expectations and the actual reality of a fictional world are not always the same thing.

Okay, so basically you pick and choose what parts of the series to believe, and if it contradicts what's already been established, then it was clearly a lie. I gotcha.

A bankai does not mean captain level power. Using a bankai is only one part of the captain proficiency test.

It's still a big breakthrough in a shinigami's power, and it's said those that do achieve have the potential to become a captain. And again. One strike. Without bankai.

Frankly, you don't seem to have thought about this at all. You're not even that clear on the events of the show.

I have explained how I drew my conclusions, and I have given statements from the show to back them up. You seem like you just take everything on the show at face value even when it doesn't fit with what's been shown before. I don't know why you're so averse to the idea that maybe Kubo didn't plan the whole series out. Do you think that he planned for Nel to completely vanish from the story after her backstory was revealed? Or that he planned for all of the build up to Orihime's powers to amount to nothing? The arc went into great detail about how special her powers are, and yet, she does nothing to contribute to Aizen's defeat.

Personal distastes are not objective flaws. When you present them as such you are being pretentious.

Yes. But I don't believe that all opinions are equally well thought out. Some are based on misconceptions or faulty logic, and I focus more on who can better argue their point, regardless if it's not truly objective.

Thinking that what the "general anime community" says matters in the slightest is also pretty pretentious.

My point was that I find it odd that people are surprised that Bleach was cancelled when it gets far more criticism than praise.

The implication being made aware of these opinions would change the opinions of fans of the show is also pretty pretentious.

Only a fool never changes his mind.

So it explored all of the boring, mundane crap, hmmmm I see.

World building is nothing to scoff at. I've seen people give that as a reason as to why they prefer Naruto and One Piece to Bleach: because they're both better as expanding their universe.

Well besides the fact that all filler material is non-canon.
That's about 0.5% of that arc.

I've heard that Kubo actually worked closer on the anime than most manga creators did. And I can't give you a confirmation of this, but I've also heard that Kubo once stated that the Zanpakuto arc was supposed to be in the manga, but he wasn't able to find a place to put it. Actually, the arc established a few things before the show did. Hisagi's zanpakuto spirit made a one panel cameo in the manga where he had the same design shown in the arc. The arc also established the true power of Chojiro's zanpakuto before it was shown in the manga. I can't say what Kubo contributed, but he clearly gave them ideas.

It also seems horribly unfair to focus on the bad parts of filler arcs, but when the arc actually gives an interesting perspective on the characters to just say "Whatever. It's not canon."

Oh I've read you say it. Outside of non-asspulls I've still yet to read why.

All that build up, all the things Aizen achieved, all the people he beat, and Ichigo beats him in three chapters flat without even trying. What would've been satisfying would be an even fight where the characters actually have to work to gain an advantage, instead of Ichigo just casually smacking Aizen around.

I know there's this stereotype that people are dumb and can't stand reading subtitles, but for the most part I don't think it's true.

Stupidity isn't what I would call it. Some people just aren't comfortable reading and watching something at the same time, and some people just can't connect to the characters if they can't understand what they're saying.

 

[balladbird]

Probably some wishful thinking on my part as well.

Some of that is personal feelings, I admit. Kenpachi's appeal is forever lost on me. He's a boring caveman that is only enjoyed because Western fans love boring badass types.

I'm slightly offended, he's my favourite character on the show.
And while he's certainly badass I don't find him boring, perhaps I read too much into it but I find him to be one of the deeper characters of the show.[/quote]

Apologies, it wasn't my intent to be offensive, though I admit I did, perhaps, word my opinion more caustically than I could have. it's the right of a fan to like whoever they want for whatever they want; though don't construe my personal dislike of a character, or even my inability to empathize with fans of that character, as my bashing of fans of that character. We all want different things from a series.