Why does anyone in Middle Earth take the Orcs seriously?

[Terminal Blue]

The Orcs are simply not a credible threat. If a small band of people can take on and kill an entire battalion of them, how are they even a threat to an actual army? Even when they outnumber the good guys 10 to one, they still get slaughtered.

Well, you have to remember that the protagonists in these movies are all awesome epic heroes. If they couldn't kill a ton of bad guys they wouldn't be terribly memorable, would they?

Well.. in the case of the Hobbit they added a whole bunch of pointless action sequences. In the book, the dwarves are generally pretty damn incompetent and don't ever fight anything with much success at all.

Basically though, yeah.. orcs are weak individually because of their twisted and corrupted origins. They weren't bred to be skilled or noble, they were bred to be disposable peons of evil. The bad guys in lord of the rings don't generally want minions who might theoretically rise up to oppose them.

There's some pretty creepy implications to the whole thing anyway, what with Tolkien basically describing the orcs as embodying all the ugly traits of Asian people, and the whole Nordic racewanking which went on with the elves and human genealogies in middle earth. I'm not saying Tolkien was racist, but he seems to have had some pretty creepy (to our sensibilities, back then it was quite acceptable) ideas about racial purity and the percieved value of "pure" races over "corrupted" ones.

 

[MrGalactus]

When not fighting major characters they have a better success rate. They also would've taken out all of Gondor and Rohan's suicide attack if not for the destroying of the ring... That doesn't need spoliers this long after does it?

I haven't seen it yet, but it's OK because I've watched the first two and have no idea who Gondor or Rohan are.

 

[gigastar]

Well, most of the fighting i recall from The Hobbit was either against goblins during a tactical withdrawal, or against warg-riding orcs which they had to get help with almost every time they crossed paths.

The only other thing was the flashback when the uprooted Erebor Dwarves tried to retake Moria...

Sorry, i still cant believe that they seriously thought that was a good idea.

... And the Dwarves were being demolished until Thorin relieved thier leader of an arm.

When not fighting major characters they have a better success rate. They also would've taken out all of Gondor and Rohan's suicide attack if not for the destroying of the ring... That doesn't need spoliers this long after does it?

Nearly 7 decades after The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings came out? I should hope not.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Even when they outnumber the good guys 10 to one, they still get slaughtered.

Because they don't out number the good guys ten to one, they out number then a thousand to one.

More to the point, the Orcs often have far worse things either backing them up or in command. Fifty Orcs? No problem.

Fifty Orcs and a cave troll? Problem.

Fifty Orcs, a cave troll and The Witch King of Angmar. Ah...

 

[Warachia]

The Orcs are simply not a credible threat. If a small band of people can take on and kill an entire battalion of them, how are they even a threat to an actual army? Even when they outnumber the good guys 10 to one, they still get slaughtered.

I just saw the Hobbit and it suffered from this "stormtrooper syndrome" just as badly as LOTR did.

There are several scenes where the orcs have the advantage fighting the enemy, Aragorn gets his ass handed to him by a single orc a few times in the first movie, and several times they had to run away because they were outnumbered and would be killed, Gandalf was even nearly killed by orcs outnumbering him, and did you never see the any movie other than the first one? They fight actual armies, and are incredibly effective, the reason the fellowship stand a better chance against the orcs is because they have the more combat experience, and are better fighters, when put up against regular guards, the guards get slaughtered by the orcs numbers, so why wouldn't you see them as a threat?

 

[fix-the-spade]

The only other thing was the flashback when the uprooted Erebor Dwarves tried to retake Moria...

Sorry, i still cant believe that they seriously thought that was a good idea.

Well, they didn't know the Orcs of Moria were as numerous or well organised as they turned out to be, plus they were desperate.

Quite how they planned to deal with the Balrog... although, up to that point, no-one had ever laid eyes on it and survived, so the Dwarves didn't even know what it was.

 

[Veylon]

It's a movie thing where the heroes get to kill mooks in carload lots without consequence which has really gotten out of hand. In the books the orcs are far more dangerous and easily on level with their human opponents.

 

[Azahul]

This ^ they have "plot armor". In Game of Thrones nobody has plot armor.

I dunno, Daenerys quite literally has 100% Fire resistant plot armour. Frankly, after five books, I'm yet to see anything about the way ASOIAF treats its main characters to make it different from any other fantasy story. By the end of the Fellowship of the Ring, more major characters were dead (presumably) than have died in the entire run of Martin's books. Sure, one comes back later, but the Game of Thrones series is hardly above resurrection.

Anywho, on topic, the movies do tend to greatly exaggerate the prowess of the heroes, enough so that it's easy to forget that very nearly every single fight between large numbers of Orcs and the heroes is taking place as the heroes flee to safety. The one time it wasn't, the Orcs weren't concerned with staying for a fight, they just wanted to make off with the Hobbits. In every other situation Orcs are part of a massive battle and, as others have said, prove themselves to be pretty effective when facing regular soldiers as opposed to fighting the Fellowship. You know, a band of the mightiest heroes in the land...

 

[Xdeser2]

The Orcs are simply not a credible threat. If a small band of people can take on and kill an entire battalion of them, how are they even a threat to an actual army? Even when they outnumber the good guys 10 to one, they still get slaughtered.

I just saw the Hobbit and it suffered from this "stormtrooper syndrome" just as badly as LOTR did.

There are things called "Protagonists" in movies/games/books that usually slash through thousands of enemies by the end of said medium.

Besides, you miss the scenes where Orcs/Urak-Hai Fuck up Normal humans/Elves and burn entire villages?

 

[gigastar]

The only other thing was the flashback when the uprooted Erebor Dwarves tried to retake Moria...

Sorry, i still cant believe that they seriously thought that was a good idea.

Well, they didn't know the Orcs of Moria were as numerous or well organised as they turned out to be, plus they were desperate.

Quite how they planned to deal with the Balrog... although, up to that point, no-one had ever laid eyes on it and survived, so the Dwarves didn't even know what it was.

Well they cant not have known of the Balrog, as its being there was why Moria was abandoned. Considering Gandalf technically died trying to kill it, id say a couple of dwarf legions arent gonna measure up.

Besides, theres plenty of mountains in Middle-Earth. Excepting the Grey Mountains because if i remember correctly theyre full of dragons.

 

[Tanakh]

well, ever heard of the inverse ninja law?

 

[GloatingSwine]

Probably because they were very successful in zerg-rushing in the books, what with it taking an unkillable army of ghosts to save Gondor during the siege.

Didn't happen.

Not in the books.

The army of ghosts scared the Corsairs of Umbar away from their ships, Aragorn raised the armies of the southlands and then led them to the battle.

There were no ghosts at the battle of the Pelennor.

 

[NeutralDrow]

There's some pretty creepy implications to the whole thing anyway, what with Tolkien basically describing the orcs as embodying all the ugly traits of Asian people, and the whole Nordic racewanking which went on with the elves and human genealogies in middle earth.

The fact that the orcs were generally always evil apparently bugged Tolkien enough that he later started trying to either backpedal or justify the impression.

I'm not saying Tolkien was racist, but he seems to have had some pretty creepy (to our sensibilities, back then it was quite acceptable) ideas about racial purity and the percieved value of "pure" races over "corrupted" ones.

Maybe in the books, but...

"I must say that the enclosed letter from Rutten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of [Aryan] origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine."

 

[Wadders]

the Game of Thrones series is hardly above resurrection (but why oh why did it have to be Catelyn?).

So glad I read this after I've just finished the 4th book. I unwittingly spoiled a few events for myself already. I'm really hoping she's relegated to an even more minor role in the 5th book. Given the fact that she's pretty much a walking corpse on the outside, I'd hope so. I still dont know how she stayed alive though...

OT: well they manage (eventually) to kill Boromir, and he's a mighty soldier of Gondor well versed in dishing out death to Orcs, so they're worthy of a little respect perhaps.

 

[Gizmo1990]

The only other thing was the flashback when the uprooted Erebor Dwarves tried to retake Moria...

Sorry, i still cant believe that they seriously thought that was a good idea.

Well, they didn't know the Orcs of Moria were as numerous or well organised as they turned out to be, plus they were desperate.

Quite how they planned to deal with the Balrog... although, up to that point, no-one had ever laid eyes on it and survived, so the Dwarves didn't even know what it was.

Well they cant not have known of the Balrog, as its being there was why Moria was abandoned. Considering Gandalf technically died trying to kill it, id say a couple of dwarf legions arent gonna measure up.

Besides, theres plenty of mountains in Middle-Earth. Excepting the Grey Mountains because if i remember correctly theyre full of dragons.

The Moria thing is different in the books. In the book, King Thrór go's to Moria alone and is killed by Azog, so Thráin calls all 12 dwarven clans together and they declare war on the orcs of the Misty Mountains. They kick the Orcs arse from one end of the Misty Mountains to the other, with the final battle happening outside the gates of Moria. After they win, Thráin wanted to go into Moria but the other clans would not go with him, and the dwarves of Erebor were to few to go alone.

Plus, Dain Ironfoot saw into the gates of Moria and saw the Balrog. He then said that it was beyond the power of any dwarf, alive or dead, and that no dwarf would enter and live until a greater power entered Moria and destroyed it. He also killed Azog. The goblins and wargs that chased the dwarves in The Hobbit were just Goblins no one special, and Azog's son, Bolg, turns up at the end, leading the orc/goblin/warg army in the Battle of five armies.

I guess Peter jackson just changed it to make it more personal and drametic.

 

[silver wolf009]

Because they're a bunch of racists. Everyone flat out states that orcs were created from 'corrupted' elves breeding, and there's nothing taboo about committing genocide, which is called hunting several times in the books and films. They're quite obviously a sapient race as they can talk to each other and have social structure, but they've been so downtrodden by everyone that they don't have the technology or organisation to fight anyone with anything except primitive tribal tactics.

Wake up sheeple!

lol

If the Orcs had won the war of the ring, Middle Earth would be entering its industrial age. Instead the elves left and the world entered a dark age.

If the Uruk-Hai and Saruman won, then yes. Orcs? Ehhhh... Less so, especially with Sauron at the helm, what with his dedication to the domination of the wills of all living things.

And I'd trust humanity on our own to industrialize; we've done it before in our world, no?

OT: Numbers, as some have said. That aforementioned history of oppression lends the idea to some payback. I'd not like fighting a huge force that, without exception, hates me for what my ancestors did to them, and is justified in feeling so. And with Sauron at the helm, using the Nazgul and magic to win many a mind game and instill much fear, the people of Middle Earth had reason to be scared.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Maybe in the books, but...

And this is why I don't think he was a racist, although he did use language drawn directly from contemporary racial theory occasionally (describing orcs as having "mongoloid" features, for example). You also have to remember that there were various "scientific" race doctrines, and many people who opposed the Nazi one (which was pretty wacko by the standards of many) still bought into the general idea.

I think he placed excessive value and emphasis on certain mythological and cultural heritages, particularly Nordic and Anglo-Saxon, and I think there's something a little Volkisch about it, which I'll admit is slightly uncomfortable to me. The meticulous focus on racial/cultural genealogies really bugs me, as well, particularly since it's incredibly anachronistic.

But then, I'm not a Tolkien fan. I think he was very good at what he did, but it's not enjoyable to me and I believe it's influence on the fantasy genre in general has been somewhat corrosive. I did enjoy the films though.