Why Does Magic Suck?

[Soviet Heavy]

PLEASE REFER TO TLDR IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ

There is usually three archetypes in RPGs nowadays: The Fighter, the Rogue, and the Mage.
The fighter is the straightforward hack till they're dead type.
The rogue is the master of unlocking backstabby fighter type.
The Mage is your caster, healer, blaster, and any other "er" you can thing of.

The first two, the Fighter and the Rogue, are relatively straightforward. The fighter will hit things, and the rogue will stab things. They are very clear cut in their intent: deal damage up front or from behind.

The mage is just a little too complicated in most cases. While Rogues and Fighters get very defined skills to use, the mage gets lists and lists of spells, talents and skills to choose from. This can make it more than a little daunting for a first time mage player, who is used to the simplistic nature of the former two choices.

So how can we make the mage accessible to new people? There are two options to choose from. The first is simplifying the mage to a base magic wielder, the way the Fable series has gone. You choose two spells, mix them together, aim at enemy. The problem with this is that it can make things a little too easy.

Part of the Mage's appeal is dominating the field through clever tactics. Having the strength of a Mage behind a one button combo is almost a gamebreaker.


The other option is that instead of making the Mage simpler, we make the other two classes more complex. Giving each class a number of varying roles can make for more specific play styles, but this is also detrimental in some cases. It dilutes the roles of the Rogue and the Fighter. If a Rogue specializes in lock picking the way a Mage would choose Necromancy, then that Rogue is going to be useless in combat, unless it finds a key to unlock their death.

TLDR
How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

 

[Axolotl]

How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

You should start by assumeing new players aren't total morons.

I mean I've not seen a spell system in a major RPG in the past 5 years that took more than a few seconds to figure out.

Maybe if you're still playing Ultima Underworld where you needed to decode the games magical language to construct spells then yes that might need simplifying but most modern games have accessable magic systems.

 

[Zydrate]

Every game has a learning curve.
My answer to this was covered in an EC episode; Tutorials mean everything.
Just have a good tutorial and the game can be golden. (Provided the entire game itself doesn't suck)

 

[ultrachicken]

If the player had a chance to test their spells before buying, it would make dealing with magic trees a lot less daunting.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I always found the biggest problem with Mage classes is that they're great when you're really high level and can rain down supernatural death on your enemies, but getting to that point is virtually impossible because when you just start out as a mage you can barely cast a fireball (and even than only like once per battle in the case of the DnD games) spell and all your enemies are fighters or rouges so they prone to running up and chopping your balls off, and since Mages always have piss poor melee skills, you always die really fast.

 

[Calcium]

If a Rogue specializes in lock picking the way a Mage would choose Necromancy, then that Rogue is going to be useless in combat, unless it finds a key to unlock their death.

TLDR
How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

Red Vs Blue reference? Ah, nostalgia.

I actually read the thread title as "Why Does Music Suck?" so was disapointed I wouldn't get to post some music links.

But on topic; part of the appeal of Mages is their more complex play style. As a support role rather than a frontline attacker they benefit from the additonal abilities such as healing, support magic, etc. Although I guess it all comes down to which game is being spoken of.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

The other option is that instead of making the Mage simpler, we make the other two classes more complex. Giving each class a number of varying roles can make for more specific play styles, but this is also detrimental in some cases. It dilutes the roles of the Rogue and the Fighter. If a Rogue specializes in lock picking the way a Mage would choose Necromancy, then that Rogue is going to be useless in combat, unless it finds a key to unlock their death.

You mean do what D&D has been doing for years?

 

[lacktheknack]

Leave it as is, the determined player will figure it out.

Especially considering how magic systems are nowhere near as complex as you're making them out to be. I'd prefer MORE complexity, myself.

 

[Dragonborne88]

I dunno man, I've been playing Divinity 2 recently, and it seemed like Melee sucked in that game. My Mage is hardly ever touched, even in the beginning. I might be biased though, I love Mages. It's my "Cackle Maniacally as everything in a mile radius dies" class.

 

[s0m3th1ng]

Start of Baldur's Gate: one magic missile and one identify per day.
End of Baldur's Gate 2: Major Invulnerability, Spell sequencers, Wish, spell that removes the casting time between spells, and you can fucking STOP TIME. All augmented by the insane items you will have at the end of SoA. By the game's standards, you are a God.

 

[Nooners]

Having just started as mage in Oblivion, here's my 2 cents:
1: Have a backup skill. For me, it's archery.
2: Have a friends who knows the system. One of my old buds set me up with two overpowered spells of his. Still have to gain access to spellcrafting at the Arcane University, but that's fine with me.

Also, just have a LOT of patience. A huge ton of it.

 

[Continuity]

TLDR
How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

Simple answer: We shouldn't. The mage is the perfect class in which to reposit some depth and complexity, the fighter is there basically for those people who don't want to have to worry about a complex class... Why take the option of complexity away from the rest of us?

In fact I would argue vehemently that magic needs to be made more arcane, more obscure, more complex. This is after all the very essence of what magic is about in a roleplaying environment.

 

[octafish]

Why must we make all games simple? I don't play many modern games because they lack depth and complexity. Don't like it? Go play Gears of War.

 

[Rayne870]

PLEASE REFER TO TLDR IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO READ

TLDR
How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

Would it be possible to get some examples so I can understand where you are coming from. From my experience in games I haven't seen much of a difference between melee and magic combat. For example having played each class to 80 in WoW (before I quit), dungeon-ed and raided with most of them, I actually found that mages and rogues were on fairly even ground. From what I have seen in Dragon Age: Origins the combat can be as complex or as simple as you like, mages in particular have a huge variety of spells that are awesome when stacked up and the game seemed more tactical as a mage than as a warrior with a two handed sword.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Start of Baldur's Gate: one magic missile and one identify per day.
End of Baldur's Gate 2: Major Invulnerability, Spell sequencers, Wish, spell that removes the casting time between spells, and you can fucking STOP TIME. All augmented by the insane items you will have at the end of SoA. By the game's standards, you are a God.

Hehe, did you solo BG2 as well? Solo mage was one of the most amazing experiences in gaming. Something about Vecna's Robe with Alacrity and timestop. Imagine what those encounters were like from everyone who wasn't you. "Hey look, a dude wearing silly robes! Get'em!" ---- discontinuity ---- "Where'd all the fire, lightning, wilting, and pit fiend come from?"

 

[Infinatex]

It personal preference. The Mage isn't too complicated, the others are just boring. Hack, slash, hack slash.. stab. I must prefer the complexities of a Mage any day!

 

[Continuity]

Start of Baldur's Gate: one magic missile and one identify per day.
End of Baldur's Gate 2: Major Invulnerability, Spell sequencers, Wish, spell that removes the casting time between spells, and you can fucking STOP TIME. All augmented by the insane items you will have at the end of SoA. By the game's standards, you are a God.

Hehe, did you solo BG2 as well? Solo mage was one of the most amazing experiences in gaming. Something about Vecna's Robe with Alacrity and timestop. Imagine what those encounters were like from everyone who wasn't you. "Hey look, a dude wearing silly robes! Get'em!" ---- discontinuity ---- "Where'd all the fire, lightning, wilting, and pit fiend come from?"

I solo'd BG with all the classes, but mage and thief were the two best experiences.. though of course the mage is pretty much stuffed in the last battle as sarevok is completely immune to magic..

 

[DEAD34345]

The reason playing a mage is fun is because it is more complex than the other characters. If you want simple, you play tank/other fighter. If you want slightly more complex, you play rogue. If you want real complexity, you play mage. You could change mages to be accessible for new players, but why when they can just go play as a fighter until they have learned more? The current system works perfectly because there are simple classes and complex classes, so everyone can choose something that suits them.

Oh, and don't think I'm in any way insulting people who play fighters or rogues, i play as fighters far more often than i play as other classes.