Why Does Magic Suck?

[Katana314]

My solution is to make mages overpowered.

Put it this way: When you have to go to lots of extra work to accomplish something successfully, it should be much, much more rewarding. Playing as a sniper and managing a headshot on someone is an instant-kill in Team Fortress 2, compared to firing rockets which does mild damage.

Make the mage the "expert" class. If you don't know how to play him, you will do miserably and get wrecked. If you're good at knowing the right spell to cast at the right time, you will decimate everyone. Conversely, make the fighter sort of an "equalizer", that you don't have to be supreme at to do well with.

 

[KissofKetchup]

How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

You should start by assumeing new players aren't total morons.

I mean I've not seen a spell system in a major RPG in the past 5 years that took more than a few seconds to figure out.

Maybe if you're still playing Ultima Underworld where you needed to decode the games magical language to construct spells then yes that might need simplifying but most modern games have accessable magic systems.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I remember when I first played Oblivion, having had no prior experience with the series, being totally bewildered with the magic system. It definitely did not take me 5 seconds to get a grasp on how the magic system worked. Apart from the basic lightning bolt/healing/fireball spells, I had no freaking clue what other spells were out there. I just now had to look up what the mysticism spells were and what they did.
You may not have difficulty with grasping magic systems in RPG's but that's probably because you have so much experience with them. Most games (excluding those catering to the hardcore crowd) should at least give a proper tutorial in the use of magic and the effects of the different spells

 

[The Madman]

I like it when magic adds an extra layer of complexity to a character, that's why I often gravitate towards magic using characters when given the opportunity.

But then I'm a sucker for the classical rpg, both video-game and table-top, way of thinking: Mages start out weak and pathetic, but gain in power and complexity over time so long as the player is willing to invest time and effort into both advancing beyond their humble origins and learn to 'wield their arcane power'.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I will say I do prefer the magic systems where I have a mana pool (or a set amount of MP) and I can cast as many spells as I want as many times as I want until I run out of mana, and I can restore mana with potions and whatever. 'Cause that's one thing that bugged me about the D'n'D based games like Neverwinter Nights, whenever I tried to play as a mage I found I couldn't get very far because I could only cast my spells once per day and as soon as I ran out of spells, I was screwed. Of course it's a non-issue when you're like level 20 and have like 30 spells to choose from. "Oh no, I already used the fireball spell, I'll just use the Giant-Laser-Beam-Face-Melty-Death spell instead."

You know d&d has sorcerers which work more like the systems you are talking about ?

Really? 'Cause they seemed to work under the same principle in the games I've played. Of course I've only played the video games, not the actual tabletop game.

 

[Light 086]

I must admit that when I first started playing fantasy games I found mage's rather intimidating because of this reason. However after trying it out a few times it wasn't that bad. Like a fighter you can still hit things until they die, you just need the spell rather than the weapon to do so. Same with healing and all that, just need spells rather than equipment.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I always found the biggest problem with Mage classes is that they're great when you're really high level and can rain down supernatural death on your enemies, but getting to that point is virtually impossible because when you just start out as a mage you can barely cast a fireball (and even than only like once per battle in the case of the DnD games) spell and all your enemies are fighters or rouges so they prone to running up and chopping your balls off, and since Mages always have piss poor melee skills, you always die really fast.

Cast grease or web,either in whichever order suits the situation. Drop a torch on them. Early fireball - plus, they can't move. More accessible? Try making games that ALLOW for creativity with spells. Seriously, beyond fire, lightning, ice, poison and +12 toeyboff magic in video games is limited to boomstick and heal and buff. 4th edition d n d beautifully solves the melee issues while over complicating the really utilitarian magic visa vie "rituals" Some imagination and magic goes a long way once you look beyond the nuke spells.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

You should start by assumeing new players aren't total morons.

I mean I've not seen a spell system in a major RPG in the past 5 years that took more than a few seconds to figure out.

Maybe if you're still playing Ultima Underworld where you needed to decode the games magical language to construct spells then yes that might need simplifying but most modern games have accessable magic systems.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I remember when I first played Oblivion, having had no prior experience with the series, being totally bewildered with the magic system. It definitely did not take me 5 seconds to get a grasp on how the magic system worked. Apart from the basic lightning bolt/healing/fireball spells, I had no freaking clue what other spells were out there. I just now had to look up what the mysticism spells were and what they did.
You may not have difficulty with grasping magic systems in RPG's but that's probably because you have so much experience with them. Most games (excluding those catering to the hardcore crowd) should at least give a proper tutorial in the use of magic and the effects of the different spells

READ the D n D players handbook. $th edition butchered magic, so try 3.5 but either way, it makes allowance for your own imagination to best combine effects of spells, and full descriptions are given.

 

[Gill Kaiser]

Why can't things just remain as they are? What's wrong with having mages be more complicated than the other classes?

 

[Axolotl]

How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

You should start by assumeing new players aren't total morons.

I mean I've not seen a spell system in a major RPG in the past 5 years that took more than a few seconds to figure out.

Maybe if you're still playing Ultima Underworld where you needed to decode the games magical language to construct spells then yes that might need simplifying but most modern games have accessable magic systems.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I remember when I first played Oblivion, having had no prior experience with the series, being totally bewildered with the magic system. It definitely did not take me 5 seconds to get a grasp on how the magic system worked. Apart from the basic lightning bolt/healing/fireball spells, I had no freaking clue what other spells were out there. I just now had to look up what the mysticism spells were and what they did.

What's complicated? When you buy a spell it says what it does, then you equip that spell, you press the button and then it does whatever it says it does and takes up an ammount of mana. If anything using physical weapons in is more complicated than the spell system.

 

[Wondermint13]

I dunno man, I've been playing Divinity 2 recently, and it seemed like Melee sucked in that game. My Mage is hardly ever touched, even in the beginning." class.

I noticed that too. Melee was awful in Divinity 2

But in general, yes! Casters are f***ing annoying to say the least. I get frustrated when playing casters each and every time in a variety of games.. Mana-this mana-that regen-mana mana mana mananananananana 'heal me heal me' STFU! Run away...run away..! I personally am just too unsophisticated to play a mage.. I just want to twat the thing in its face with my axe until one of us dies!!

But they have their purpose and its a damn good one! The mutha f***ing glass cannon! It takes more guts to play a Mage than a Warrior, More brains and more desire to unleash hell than any other class..
Sorry but making the caster class less complicated would make its destructive powers more accessable to those who dont deserve it.

 

[Legion]

How can we make Magic in RPGs more accessible to new players?

You should start by assumeing new players aren't total morons.

I mean I've not seen a spell system in a major RPG in the past 5 years that took more than a few seconds to figure out.

Indeed. Dragon Age: Origins is the first fantasy RPG I have ever played and I grasped it pretty quickly. It took me a little while to master the finer nuances, but it was relatively easy to pick it all up.

 

[Ryuu814]

I think in the end it boils down to the player and how they approach magic.

I used to think it sucked balls back when I was an avid MMO'er (until I get my new PC that was will become an am) because I could never micro-manage what I wanted to do and in turn micro-manage my mana pool. After approaching the issue in dragon age I found once you manage to figure out what mage type you want to play as it's relatively simple.

I myself am the support/healer type guy.

But it's a shame some games complicate how to use magic. I can remember back in runescape you'd need to craft runes and then more runes and buy some more to actually use a spell and that was expensive or time-consuming to do so making it simply more effective to use a bow or sword to kill the enemy .
Come to think of it back then I never noticed a healing spell for mage players... *shrugs*

at any rate I used to think it sucked but after awhile...it's ever so useful to have

 

[Mitsozuka]

I agree with a few of the earlier comments, those who want to use the Mage will usually have the patience and know how to figure him out.


...unless you're in WoW, where you'll need 2 guildies at lvl 50+ to run your skinny excuse for a butt through everything until you hit 20, then just spam the retard out of PvP until you figure out which specialty you want. Or was that just how they always do it anyway??

 

[DaJoW]

You could always expand the number of classes and in the process throw in another caster. One offensive with the odd self-preservation ability (kinda like WoW Mage), one defensive with the odd "not a lot of damage, not a lot of mana"/DoT or other Fire-and-Forget offensive ability (kinda like WoW Holy/Disc Priest). Or you skip the healing etc. and just go for elemental and mental abilities (with knockbacks, stuns etc. for survival) and balance the other classes to have better survivability on their own (like GW2 seems to be going for). Or you could make magic less unusual and have lots of different caster classes.

On the whole though, as long as you're getting 1-2 spells at a time and a decent interval inbetween it shouldn't be a problem. Make it clear what they do, and if there are specializations, make it clear what they do (Assassin from DA:O falls foul on this IMO) and how they could affect other abilities. WoW does this well.

Or you could of course go the DnD 3.5 route and have Wizards die if they sit down too fast for the first few levels and then go out hunting deities around level 10.

 

[Nesutaa]

The other option is that instead of making the Mage simpler, we make the other two classes more complex. Giving each class a number of varying roles can make for more specific play styles, but this is also detrimental in some cases. It dilutes the roles of the Rogue and the Fighter. If a Rogue specializes in lock picking the way a Mage would choose Necromancy, then that Rogue is going to be useless in combat, unless it finds a key to unlock their death.

You mean do what D&D has been doing for years?

Hahaha, totally agree with you. Thats why I never got into 4th edition.

To answer the OP, I dont think there is a real need to make mage classes simpler. Mage classes in RPGs generally have a higher learning curve than warriors/rogues, given the fact that a mage can fill so many different roles (healer, damager, controller, summoner, shape-shifter, etc.) There are even games where mages can fill the role of a melee character (in DA:O, you can become an arcane warrior, making you the equivalent of a shiny magic tank).

Simplifying mage class creates a situation where the work the player puts to a character is a fraction of the reward, as opposed to now when the work put into a mage generally breaks even with the reward. This is why the magic system in the fable series was kind of a downer for me. Yes it is very cool to fill up the screen with a fire/lightning spell, but it ends up taking what little challenge there was in the series and locking it in the basement to starve.

Making warriors/rogues more complicated... why the hell would you do such a thing? Why would a player want more steps in the process a smacking enemies in the face? Just as mages generally have a higher learning curve, warriors/rogues generally have a lower learning curve. Sure, there are various strategies they can use, but the goal of both is the same: insert sharp object into monster.

I suppose what I'm saying is leave it just as it is. Its not perfect, but it works well enough. If people dont want to think about the way they play, then they probably shouldnt have pick up an RPG in the first place.