Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

[Satinavian]

What point are you trying to make, cause Im not sure if we are even having the same argument or even actually disagree.

That gender is only the way cultures handle the existance of sexes. And that by trying to remove gender from sex, one would destroy its reason for existing. All that would be left are two arbitrary selections of habits, rules and clothes without anything holding them together.

Which is unfortunately a problem for transgender people. The more accepted it is that sex and gender don't match, the less gender roles have any validity and the less gender idendities can really exist.

There is a reason, the same people who demand that people of male/female sex don't have to conform to those rules are the ones that often want to abolish gender altogether.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Yes, given the fact there is literally no evidence to support the idea coupled with the fact that if it held any truth to it then the some of the very fundamentals about biology upon which the entirety of our civilisation's understanding of the human body would need to be rewritten makes it hard to believe.

Gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder are things that exist. The science behind this is rather old.

It also isn't helped that this whole "there's more then two genders" stuff came about at the same time as social media did. The term "trans trender" doesn't exist without reason. You have people today who genuinely think that if you aren't an impossibly stereotypical image of masculinity then you aren't a man, but since you aren't a woman that means you're something else. It's actually quite ironic that those who claim to oppose gender roles are the ones who believe in them the strongest.

The term transgender is older than the internet by about twenty years mate. We've had documented cases of transitionings since the 1980's, if not earlier, on top of all the various cultures and identities that had more than two genders or had a fluid concept of gender. The Greeks for example had Dionysus who blurred the lines between man and woman.

 

[Silvanus]

No, you couldn't, unless perhaps you substituted gender for sex.

Sex and gender are somewhat interchangeable terms. Specifically I meant gender; Male or Female. I was speaking from the point of identifying a persons gender based off their DNA. Besides, frogs and lizards are much more simpler organisms than humans, they do not posses the intelligence to differentiate between what would be classified as a female or male personality. As for how I identify if someone is male or female, I will use commonly accepted norms such as body shape, biological characteristics such as facial architecture to identify someone as male or female. However, such assessments are usually done in the blink of an eye. I don't make it a point of analyzing every single person that enters my field of view.

Firstly, no, they're not interchangeable; not linguistically or scientifically. They usually correlate, that's all, but the exceptions to that rule are numerous and demonstrable.

Frogs and lizards are termed male and female sex by human metrics (just as other humans are). And they change sex, inarguably. It would be absurd to declare that they do not do so, even though they change their physical characteristics, just because they don't change DNA when they do so. Yet people apply that bizarre standard to humans constantly.

 

[Zontar]

Gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder are things that exist. The science behind this is rather old.

I'd like to point out that a good 80%+ of such cases have the person dealing with it recover without any treatment.

I repeat my previous statement, mainly on account of the fact we're still trying to be led to believe in something without any evidence.

The term transgender is older than the internet by about twenty years mate.

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

That 76+ genders thing is indeed nonsense, being as I only see it from people taking a swipe at teens and Tumblr.

 

[Silvanus]

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

There is so much middle ground, for goodness' sake.

This "76 genders" notion you've conjured up is, as you're well aware, a rather tiresome strawman, existing only in trite arguments like this. Even when Facebook introduced all those options, even a cursory examination would tell you it did not refer to that many separate genders, but merely a number of ways of describing.

The fact that people have latched onto these strawmen, using them to argue against anything outside of male and female at all, is utterly ridiculous and risible.

 

[09philj]

Gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder are things that exist. The science behind this is rather old.

I'd like to point out that a good 80%+ of such cases have the person dealing with it recover without any treatment.

I repeat my previous statement, mainly on account of the fact we're still trying to be led to believe in something without any evidence.

The term transgender is older than the internet by about twenty years mate.

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you. There's been androgynous people and genderfluid people for at least hundreds of years. There's the Sword Virgins of the Balkans, the Mahus of Hawaii, the Two-Spirits of various native American tribes, the Calalai, Calabai, and Bissu of the Indonesian island of Sulawesi, and various other groups around the world.

 

[Zontar]

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

That 76+ genders thing is indeed nonsense, being as I only see it from people taking a swipe at teens and Tumblr.

And that term only means MtF and FtM (for god sake it's literal shorthand for transitioning), not this made up 76+ genders nonsense that exists only in the minds of people with the mentality of children and a world view that can only be described as a cartoonish caricature.

There is so much middle ground, for goodness' sake.

This "76 genders" notion you've conjured up is, as you're well aware, a rather tiresome strawman, existing only in trite arguments like this. Even when Facebook introduced all those options, even a cursory examination would tell you it did not refer to that many separate genders, but merely a number of ways of describing.

The fact that people have latched onto these strawmen, using them to argue against anything outside of male and female at all, is utterly ridiculous and risible.

Is it a straw-man if your opponent is the one who built it and genuinely believes it?

And it really isn't hard to argue for the gender binary when again the evidence that the binary is wrong is literally nothing and we can observe that the male gender exists and the female gender exists. With that we know there are two and with no evidence supporting the claim there are more there's no rational reason to state factually there are more.

Yes the possibility is there, similar to how the possibility that our understanding of gravity or tidal cycles could be fundamentally incorrect, but until someone actually provides positive evidence for such a belief any textbooks being modified to state it as fact are at best fraudulent propagandists of misinformation.

 

[Zontar]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way. See these assholes pushing what is basically their religious beliefs (especially in terms of evidence, that being literally none whatsoever) is objectively having a negative detrimental effect on my country and placing some of the most basic rights of my countrymen in existential threat, with my country being second only to Germany or Greece in regards to first world nations marching towards fascism, well that grinds my gears and rubs me the wrong way.

You want to think you're some non-entity person thing, fine, go ahead, but forcing the rest of society to go along with such delusions on the threat of action by the state in violation of our constitution, sorry but that type of fascist behaviour has no place in Canada and anyone trying to push it should go back where they came from or if they where born here then to the dictatorship that nearest resembles the one they wish to turn this country into.

 

[09philj]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Is it a straw-man if your opponent is the one who built it and genuinely believes it?

And it really isn't hard to argue for the gender binary when again the evidence that the binary is wrong is literally nothing and we can observe that the male gender exists and the female gender exists. With that we know there are two and with no evidence supporting the claim there are more there's no rational reason to state factually there are more.

Yes the possibility is there, similar to how the possibility that our understanding of gravity or tidal cycles could be fundamentally incorrect, but until someone actually provides positive evidence for such a belief any textbooks being modified to state it as fact are at best fraudulent propagandists of misinformation.

Mate, I know a person who sincerely believes they're a cat. That doesn't mean there's a movement going around to prove cat people exist and are valid. Meanwhile, I don't think they should be fired for it unless it impacts their job, because who gives a shit?

Meanwhile, the gender binary is bullshit because what each gender "should be" is socially prescribed. People were having this sort of freak out when women started wearing bifurcated leggings.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way. See these assholes pushing what is basically their religious beliefs (especially in terms of evidence, that being literally none whatsoever) is objectively having a negative detrimental effect on my country and placing some of the most basic rights of my countrymen in existential threat, with my country being second only to Germany or Greece in regards to first world nations marching towards fascism, well that grinds my gears and rubs me the wrong way.

You want to think you're some non-entity person thing, fine, go ahead, but forcing the rest of society to go along with such delusions on the threat of action by the state in violation of our constitution, sorry but that type of fascist behaviour has no place in Canada and anyone trying to push it should go back where they came from or if they where born here then to the dictatorship that nearest resembles the one they wish to turn this country into.

Is this one of those, "I'd provide any sort of evidence but it'd prove me wrong" sort of deals? Because that sounds distinctly like bullshit.

 

[Avnger]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

 

[Zontar]

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

You mean apart from the fact we can now be fined and potentially for not using people's preferred pronouns, coupled with the fact we've taken steps to having an active blasphemy law in place for certain religions?

Mate, I know a person who sincerely believes they're a cat. That doesn't mean there's a movement going around to prove cat people exist and are valid. Meanwhile, I don't think they should be fired for it unless it impacts their job, because who gives a shit?

Meanwhile, the gender binary is bullshit because what each gender "should be" is socially prescribed. People were having this sort of freak out when women started wearing bifurcated leggings.

You know, the funny thing about the gender binary is that it's actually been observed, while the claims that it does not exist have, shockingly, not. After 60 years of the hypothesis of gender being separate from sex being around, still no evidence to support the notion has arisen, only that whatever causes it is hard coded at birth and cannot be socialised out of people.

Is this one of those, "I'd provide any sort of evidence but it'd prove me wrong" sort of deals? Because that sounds distinctly like bullshit.

We just passed a law that will have you finned and potentially jailed for not using someone's perfected pronouns and we've taken a major step towards religious blasphemy laws. You Yankees have no idea how lucky you have it given this type of fascistic move never could have been done with how your government is set up. Here we can only hope the courts smack both down as the violation of the Charter of Rights within the Constitution that they are.

 

[Zontar]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

 

[09philj]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Which is harassment anyway, and if you're too much of an anal retentive to do even one thing which you think is slightly incorrect, there's the singular "they" which can refer to any human regardless of gender.

 

[Avnger]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

Then you're be more than willing to link us to the text of this non-hypothetical bill that threatens the very foundations of liberty?

 

[Zontar]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

Then you're be more than willing to link us to the text of this non-hypothetical bill that threatens the very foundations of liberty?

https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/

 

[09philj]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

Then you're be more than willing to link us to the text of this non-hypothetical bill that threatens the very foundations of liberty?

https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/

Religion is already covered under the existing bill, you'll note. The point of the bill is evidently not to suppress criticism, but to crack down on hate crime.

 

[Avnger]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

Then you're be more than willing to link us to the text of this non-hypothetical bill that threatens the very foundations of liberty?

https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/

You'll have to help me out here then. Which part of the text

This enactment amends the Canadian Human Rights Act to add gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds of discrimination.
The enactment also amends the Criminal Code to extend the protection against hate propaganda set out in that Act to any section of the public that is distinguished by gender identity or expression and to clearly set out that evidence that an offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on gender identity or expression constitutes an aggravating circumstance that a court must take into consideration when it imposes a sentence.

that clearly only bans discrimination in the same manner that discrimination is banned against religions and states that discrimination being the intent behind a crime counts as discrimination utterly destroys the concept of personal freedom?

Or is that just what you were told on a youtube video?

 

[Zontar]

Why are you so obsessed with them? Nobody takes them seriously except you.

I don't know, maybe the fact my country's federal government is trying to criminalise the refusal of my people to play along with this game and instead is holding a gun to our head to indulge what is either contrarian attitudes or mental illness depending on who you ask might just whined me the wrong way.

So what does Adolf Trudeau want you to do that's got you running so scared?

My guess is that he's referring to some hypothetical law that says purposely misgendering people is a form of
harassment/discrimination in regards to the he/she/it/they pronoun used.

Actually it's any pronouns, even the made up ones, but then it's a moot point anyway because it isn't a hypothetical.

Then you're be more than willing to link us to the text of this non-hypothetical bill that threatens the very foundations of liberty?

https://openparliament.ca/bills/42-1/C-16/

Religion is already covered under the existing bill, you'll note. The point of the bill is evidently not to suppress criticism, but to crack down on hate crime.

I can forgive you for not being aware of the most critical detail due to your being from across the pond, but with how broadly hate speech and hate crimes are defined up here, coupled with the fact the Human Rights Tribunals are kangaroo courts (the only time in their entire history they didn't have a guilty verdict was when the Parliament passed a bill absolving the individual in one single case) that we've had people fined for legitimate criticism of religion while on public property.

Canada is currently undergoing a minor civil rights crisis due to all the laws we've placed on top of one another since the 1970s that contradict both each other (while never having had the contradictions sorted out) as well as contradicting the constitution yet continue to be applied.