Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

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Metalix Knightmare said:
That said, given the number of trans people who regret transitioning, and given that trans people make up about 0.3% of the U.S. population even a small amount is rather telling, surgical transitioning is clearly not the be all end all for helping people with this.
And no one is suggesting that, period.

More to the point, it does help many more trans people. Which suggests greater individual choice and better diagnostic models are in place ... and that there's still plenty ofrom for improvement. But nothing of what you havesaid in this thread is based on reality, and your grasp of neuroscience is equally lacklustre. We're getting to the point where we can start accurately predicting transgender personalities by looking as brain imaging. Even then neuroscientists are saying that that won't bethe be alland end all of diagnostics.

Also, as someone working and continuing study in neuroscience, there's plenty of 'hard' things about researching the brain.
 

Delicious Anathema

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I get that you're very passionate about this subject being trans and all, but the World Health Organization considers it a mental illness (though they're looking to change it) and I tend to agree.

You're not a woman if you think you're a woman, and the same for men. Gender is not disconnected from biological sex, it's literally the properties applied to either sex. Are stay-at-home dads transgender because they took a classic (since pre-civilization) female characteristic? No, they're obviously still men.

Gender is connected to the biological sex, some are cultural (dress code, hair) and some are innate (hunting vs nurture). There is variance of course, but they're inseperable in my view. Countless (different) civilizations and the animal kingdom having the same distinct gender roles based on sex would be a big coincidence if both weren't directly related. Many transsexual people opt for a classic look (skirts and heels/ masculine clothing) for the gender they identify with, which should be unnecessary if they did the hormones and surgery already as sex=/= gender. The fact that many transgender people become (or wish to become) transsexual is telling.

I won't pretend to believe someone's a different gender or sex and I don't think society should change to conform to such a minority (like bathroom laws).

Also, by calling me an idiot, you proved my earlier point. Save that for people speaking about attack helicopters.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Delicious Anathema said:
I get that you're very passionate about this subject being trans and all, but the World Health Organization considers it a mental illness (though they're looking to change it) and I tend to agree.
No, they don't. Gender dysphoria is a mental health problem. Simply being trans isn't. Plenty of trans don't have gender dysphoria, because they're comfortable with their bodies after treatment or counselling. Trans people are not disordered simply for being trans. We got rid of needless pathologizing of LGBTQ people years ago. Mainly because healthy, socially active people are not magically sick solely for being trans.

Same way I don't have skin disease if I get a tattoo.

Presentation alone does not an illness make. Unless you want to be needlessly excessive and say we're all dying from life disease ... mortality rate 100%, symptoms perisist for 0-117 years (the longest living terminal patient so far) ... 100% saturation of the public with an R0 of infinite.

You're not a woman if you think you're a woman, and the same for men. Gender is not disconnected from biological sex, it's literally the properties applied to either sex. Are stay-at-home dads transgender because they took a classic (since pre-civilization) female characteristic? No, they're obviously still men.
Gender is totally disconnected from sex, plenty of people perform gender and gender roles without a sex-based component. Plenty of recorded cases where people didn't know they were intersex until other conditions arose to make it evident. Gender is a constructed idea of manand woman, not an essentialist idea of male and female for the simple fact that ideas of gender change as time passes.

Gender is connected to the biological sex, some are cultural (dress code, hair) and some are innate (hunting vs nurture). There is variance of course, but they're inseperable in my view. Countless (different) civilizations and the animal kingdom having the same distinct gender roles based on sex would be a big coincidence if both weren't directly related. Many transsexual people opt for a classic look (skirts and heels/ masculine clothing) for the gender they identify with, which should be unnecessary if they did the hormones and surgery already as sex=/= gender. The fact that many transgender people become (or wish to become) transsexual is telling.
For starters, humans aren't common beasts. Secondly, civilizations rise and fall ... attitudes toward gender as time moves on change. Some cultural anthrologists think plenty of women were foragers and ropemakers, requiring sometimes days outside communal centers depending on the availability of supplies nearby in our prehistory. Then again in Saudi Arabia, now, women can't even leave the house without a male escort.

I won't pretend to believe someone's a different gender or sex and I don't think society should change to conform to such a minority (like bathroom laws).

Also, by calling me an idiot, you proved my earlier point. Save that for people speaking about attack helicopters.
Bathroom laws such as? The rest of the Western world and for that fact a good deal of the Eastern one as well don't give a flying fuck about bathroom bills. In Australia it is a non-issue. In the U.S. it was a non-issue. It's not a matter of conformity, it's a matter of public safety. Trans people are disproportionately victims of sexual abuse and physical assault, and nobody cared if they mitigated that by using the bathroom of their gender and not their sex.

Because frankly the inverse of that is ridiculous...it outs people simply to use a bathroom and increases the likelihood of violence. Nobody should have to ask permission to use a public/semi-public bathroom nor face violence for it, and if the idea is that it somehow prevents rapists ... they have never asked permission to intrude on a person directly regardless.
 

Delicious Anathema

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I reckon being trans is the disorder, they don't feel right in their bodies and need change.

The gender roles tied to biological sex have been mostly the same for thousands of years (of course there are exceptions or variations), this modern reversal and mixture of roles has been more of a social construct than any previous gender roles, nowadays you can see the gears turning.

As for bathrooms and stuff like sports, scouts and other differentiated avenues the rule should be biological sex. Bathrooms could even be labeled XX/XY.
 

Thaluikhain

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Delicious Anathema said:
I reckon being trans is the disorder
This is at variance with the actual research on the issue.

Delicious Anathema said:
The gender roles tied to biological sex have been mostly the same for thousands of years (of course there are exceptions or variations), this modern reversal and mixture of roles has been more of a social construct than any previous gender roles, nowadays you can see the gears turning.
That is flat out not true. Hell, we don't see the same roles in different contemporary cultures, let alone have them remain static for millennia.

Delicious Anathema said:
As for bathrooms and stuff like sports, scouts and other differentiated avenues the rule should be biological sex. Bathrooms could even be labeled XX/XY.
Why? In places like Australia, bathrooms aren't an issue and things work the way they are (on that non-issue). Why should Australia and other places get rid of a working system to replace it with an arbitrary one that won't?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Delicious Anathema said:
As for bathrooms and stuff like sports, scouts and other differentiated avenues the rule should be biological sex. Bathrooms could even be labeled XX/XY.
...have you actually had your chromosomes properly tested? I know I haven't.
 

Silvanus

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Delicious Anathema said:
I reckon being trans is the disorder, they don't feel right in their bodies and need change.
Oh, you reckon it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10Bp_mPXXA]! That's reason enough to take your view over those of the experts in the field.

Honestly, on this issue more than any other, those who are arguing against the scientific consensus seem to have the unwarranted certainty that they're taking the objective, dispassionate, scientific stance. Such abject nonsense.

Delicious Anathema said:
The gender roles tied to biological sex have been mostly the same for thousands of years (of course there are exceptions or variations), this modern reversal and mixture of roles has been more of a social construct than any previous gender roles, nowadays you can see the gears turning.
No, they have most certainly not been "mostly the same for thousands of years". The historian in me is crying at how very wrong that statement is.

Delicious Anathema said:
As for bathrooms and stuff like sports, scouts and other differentiated avenues the rule should be biological sex. Bathrooms could even be labeled XX/XY.
Where's the testing facility?
 

NemotheElvenPanda

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Delicious Anathema said:
You know what's child abuse? Parents giving 12 year olds hormone therapy.
You do realize that isn't how that works right?

Right?

There's screenings involved. They are analyzing by pediatric psychologists for possible signs of gender dysphoria, and even if they are diagnosed they don't go hog on hormones.

What kind of regret? When they regret changing because they didn't feel a woman/man when transition was over, and some even come around to accept their original biological sex.
Citation please.

I'm sure there are happy trans people that transitioned, but the ones that have depression/regret/suicide are often overlooked when talking about this subject.
Citation please. Anecdotal as this is to say, but most trans people I know are positively giddy when they transition for the first time, and it's not just hormones and and surgery either.

Youtube is littered with videos of trans people warning about transitioning, there are two sides of the coin and we at the very least shouldn't accept transition as the only treatment.
And there are probably more about trans people saying how happy they were transitioning, as well as videos by professional explaining the process...which doesn't always include surgery.

Also, I'm not pretending trans people don't exist. They do and they have a disorder, and I'm of the opinion that they should try to accept their sex/gender. It's okay to disagree.
Except isn't not considered a disorder.

Saying it's a disorder or illness is not censoring, I'm not stopping anyone from speaking or doing anything. You, me and anyone should post their views in a civil way, as different as they may be. When people start self-censoring because they're afraid then there's a problem.
Except it's your personal opinion against the professional opinion.