Why every American should be happy for high oil prices

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Oh-Wiseone

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Jun 9, 2008
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I'm writing a research paper for my economics professor about how the rising oil prices will affect the United States. Anyway this is a rough draft/outline that I'm submiting to give him a general idea of how my paper is going to be broken up. Of course in my final verison it'll have more data, some graphs, economic analysis, some alternative scenarios, etc.
So any thoughts at all?

A capitalist system by definition always supports most cost effective option given any choice. If two producers sell a product, same in all but price, it is only natural in a capitalist system that the producer with a cheaper product will prevail.
In the early 1970s the Arab states placed an embargo upon Western Europe, the United States, and Japan for their support of Israel during the Yom-Kippur War. As a result of this action oil prices in the United States tripled, and capitalism set in. Just as we see today, the increased price of oil led to suppliers searching among the various options for more cost effective ways to supply energy to their consumers. Of course unlike today alternative forms of energy were not as widespread or as technologically advanced, but what was available was used. The end result was the United States, and other countries suffering embargo, suddenly found it cost effective to acquire oil from spots such as the North Sea and Alaska, when it was not cost effective with a steady supply of Arab oil. Additionally Saudi Arabia, among other Arab states, lost a substantial part of their market share of world wide oil production, dropping from 13% to roughly 8%, because of oil exploration done during the embargo.
Currently it seems that history is repeating itself, although instead of new oil exploration as an answer to new higher oil prices, there is a strong movement for completely new forms of energy production. There is one thing that will spur alternative energy development in the United States, it is not environmental concern, it is not fears of dependency on foreign oil, it is simple economics. The higher of the price of oil becomes the development of alternative energy sources will only become faster and easier to achieve. Creating an electric car that is cheaper to drive than a gasoline using one is near impossible when gas is $1.50 a gallon, but to create an electric car that can be more cost effective than its combustion cousin is much easier when gas is $4.50 or $5.50 a gallon. So any American concerned about: environmental problems, foreign dependency, or what high oil costs will do to the economy can find the solution to their problems in the same technology.
This transition will not easy or smooth, the economy will be shaky during it and people will suffer as unemployment will raise and national income will fall, as is happening now. However the old saying of ?No pain, no gain? is something we all must remember when thinking of such a large scale change in our economy. While a recession will occur when jobs in the automotive industry are lost or when shipping companies are forced to cut back because of rising costs, jobs will eventually be created in industries relating to the new energy and once energy prices fall jobs will return. The truth is undeniable and inevitable, growth will unsustainable with an oil based economy in the future. In fact the economy is already in recession; unemployment is 5.5% and raising, the automotive industry on the chopping block. The government can encourage and facilitate change by funding these alternative energy projects, much in the same way as it funds research for other public projects. Nor does the government need to worry about failed research, and thus wasted dollars, as most alternative energy suggestions are based on proven technology. Lastly, once a cheaper energy source is discovered and implemented the economic growth resulting from such a fundamental change and improvement will be unimaginable.
 

Rolling Thunder

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Dec 23, 2007
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A concise and well-written treatise, though not entirely 'economic' in the sense it deals more with the socio-political effects of the oil shortage rather than the purely economic issues, and places a great deal of trust in the development of future energy sources. Still, we knew that sooner or later oil would run out....
 

stompy

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Jan 21, 2008
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Wait, is this it, or is the abridged version of your paper which is ~50 pages? I'm not trying to belittle your work, but I'm just curious as to how much they expect you to write.

As for the actual content, all I can say that is what you've written is more, like Fondant said, not so economical-focused, but it's good never-the-less. The extra graphs and statistics will help you get this into a more economical focus.

PS: I've got an interest in doing Economics. Would you mind just PMing me a quick outline or something of what you do in the course, and what you can do as a future career and stuff? (Sorry if it's asking a bit too much. You don't have to do it).
 

ChristianxKrupps

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Jun 11, 2008
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true. being an american, i feel like a selfish pig.

we complain about rising prices, and in Australia and Europe, people RIDE BIKES

and we wonder why we are so obese.

thanks america, once again, for proving how much we suck

i feel enlightened
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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ChristianxKrupps said:
true. being an american, i feel like a selfish pig.

we complain about rising prices, and in Australia and Europe, people RIDE BIKES
I live in Canada and on average it's much warmer in Australia and most European countries than it is here. This is a fnucking cold place to live, and passable biking weather only lasts for about 5 months, if you're lucky, in Calgary we had snow until mid-late may this year, and it rained for the next 2 weeks or so before finally warming up a bit.

Unfortunately we need our cars here, but we could make do with public transit, unfortunately our government has no idea how to impliment an effective and affordable public transit system. Europe does really well at this, having cheap, efficient and useful public transit.
 

L.B. Jeffries

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Nov 29, 2007
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My only concern with the high oil prices is that none of the solutions make much sense to me.

Obama and his bio-fuel constituents make me nervous because the massive flooding in the Midwest is a textbook example of why it's always a good idea to have extra food (and not turn it into gas).

The electric car people make me nervous because despite my very basic understanding of what's going on, I know we'll need to either find a ton of usable lithium or invent a new kind of battery. I dunno, maybe it's in one of those car company vaults. As people above also noted, it also expects everyone to buy a new car.

The third alternative, the one we're charmingly engaged in now, is stabilize an area of that world that has historically been considered unconquerable for millenia and keep sucking oil. Even Machiavelli wrote an essay centuries ago about how trying to invade or control an Arab population is impossible because of their social structure.

So more expensive oil, to me, will probably make my country behave like idiots as they desperately try to avoid the reality that 1) most of us don't need cars 2) public transportation is a completely appropriate choice and 3) we're all going to have to move out of huge sprawling suburban centers and live in cities.

So it goes.
 

cleverlymadeup

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Mar 7, 2008
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well the whole thing about capitalism is you're missing one point, that is "well i can sell oil at a lower price and make a bit of money or sell it at the higher price and make more money" which option do you think they'll pick? hint it's the more money one

the biggest thing about electric cars holding them back was the batteries, not big oil. they just didn't have the life they needed to go a long distance. this is still an issue really

yes big oil keeps some things down, like the 500 mile per gallon engines, but they don't keep everything down
 

John Galt

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Dec 29, 2007
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John Galt save us! Where is your miracle engine now?

Anyways, this oil crisis is a decent example of what spurred my recent dislike for capitalism. Free market never stays free. When given the opportunity, people will take power in order to prevent others from doing so. Capitalism seems like a fine enough idea, but in reality, it falls on the same jagged rock junction as all other economic systems. While in theory, the OP's scenario should work out, it most likely will not due to the fact that oil companies control the market with god-like power. In the past, we were confronted with this situation by a country, namely Saudi Arabia. The West escaped it by using our own resources (Canadian oil among other sources). However, now control of those sources has been lost to the oil companies whose primary interest is profit. Something they can easily make by increasing the price to the current levels and beyond. As much as I hate to say it, the only alternative I can see is nationalization of oil production, but then it's only a matter of time until we're screwed over again, by our own government instead of private companies.

However, I feel it would be best to convert to nuclear or some other form o energy and do away with petroleum altogether. While we'll still need it in order to make those tasty plastics we gobble up insatiably, we can 'liberate' ourselves from oil reliance with nuclear power. It's more than safe(I believe TMI was the last major disaster in the States, even that wasn't a catastrophic meltdown), uranium is relatively plentiful possibly renewable(I'm not sure how far we've come with uranium recycling), clean so long as you don't go into China Syndrome, and there are large amounts of it waiting to be extracted in the US, Canada, and Australia. All it would take is significant capital to build reactors and calm the public down. If they can grudgingly accept the LHC, then with a little effort, a reactor shouldn't be that hard to pitch.
 

T.H.O.R

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Jun 24, 2008
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Read this: http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=524792&topart=hybrids
 

kinch

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Jun 16, 2008
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I haven't read every linked article in here, nor 'researched' anything, nor do I have any training in economics at all. However, I've been thinking about oil quite alot lately, and based entirely on my own thoughts and ideas, rising oil prices are bad bad bad for economics, and generally bad (but with a few benefits) for socio-politics.

Short version: Rising oil means rising fuel, and despite how 'electric cars' (even if they were mass produced enough to replace current gas fueled cars) would lessen fuel costs for the average family, there are still massive (and I mean massive) flow-on effects from high fuel costs... most notably in transport and shipping. How many trains run on diesel? How many food companies and markets ship using trucks (which are too inefficient to use electric?) How many power stations ship coal to their plants using trucks? The shipping companies will have higher costs. They'll pass them on to the consumer (the power company, food markets, etc). Will these companies absorb the costs at the cost (whoops) of their own profits, or will they pass on the costs to the consumer? Short version, the price of EVERYTHING that gets shipped over large distances will increase. This is *bad* for the economy and for families.

On the socio-politic front... like someone mentioned above, fuel is a necessity... but there will be benefits... ppl will buy smaller cars, smaller engines, etc. ppl will walk down to the shops for the paper instead of driving. ppl will bike more (maybe not a 100% replacement, but it'll be more biking and less driving than it used to be). Short version, people will be exercising more, and thinking more about how not to use their cars. This can only be a good thing, leading to more efficient public transport and less pollution.
 

John Galt

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Dec 29, 2007
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kinch said:
Short version, the price of EVERYTHING that gets shipped over large distances will increase. This is *bad* for the economy and for families.
This sparked an odd thought for me. If we're able to power massive aircraft carriers on nuclear, would it be possible to create some sort of super-tanker that runs on nuclear as well? Also, I believe there are quite a few hybrid locomotives out there, at least that's what the CSX commercial claimed. I love me some corporate propaganda I do, I do.
 

cleverlymadeup

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Mar 7, 2008
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John Galt said:
kinch said:
Short version, the price of EVERYTHING that gets shipped over large distances will increase. This is *bad* for the economy and for families.
This sparked an odd thought for me. If we're able to power massive aircraft carriers on nuclear, would it be possible to create some sort of super-tanker that runs on nuclear as well? Also, I believe there are quite a few hybrid locomotives out there, at least that's what the CSX commercial claimed. I love me some corporate propaganda I do, I do.
yes you can power things nuclear, planes not so smart but there are nuclear powered subs and ships out there, however they are military only type stuff

sides i'm not sure i'd want commercial things having that as it could get into the wrong hands pretty easily
 

John Galt

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Dec 29, 2007
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Good point there. You'd have to make some sort of tamper-proof reactor, something that can be disabled without causing a meltdown.
 

BoilingLeadBath

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Jun 3, 2008
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The oil industry is, more or less, a free market. Yes, there is a cartel which controls 30% of the world's production... but that group of oil exporting countries is only capable of controlling prices if nobody else can increase their oil production.

Because if it was possible for those other people to increase oil production, they would do so, because (individually) it is better for their company to sell more oil than to sell less.

So the rapidly increasing costs of petroleum products indicates that there is no - or nearly no - excess oil production capacity.

************

Now, a couple points:

1) Everything is made from oil.
Cost of oil goes up, cost of raw materials and food goes up, and thus the alternative fuels - and research into them - goes up. Not in proportion to the cost of the oil, because of other energy sources such as coal.

2) Most alternative energy tech that the American .gov is sinking it's money into is NOT based on proven tech. Fuel cells require ridiculous amounts of platinum and the ethanol options aren't viable at anywhere near current energy consumption levels.
The useful research is being funded by the private sector.

4) Your paper is very short and poorly written. You might try a more systematic approach:
Because oil must run out... and because... and because... therefore.

***************

Overall, I'm fairly optimistic modern civilization will survive the fall of he oil age. Three reasons for this:

1) Technology of companies like Nanosolar, which is rapidly approaching 1$/watt with their solar panels. At prices like that, PV systems become cost effective with coal plants, and can start to replace them.
And that will drive an enormous amount of research into making them even cheaper.

2) The decline of geological limit on the amount of oil produced is expected is rather soft - roughly the mirror image of the rise of oil production. The downslope of a bell-curve.
This gives us time to react, supposing that something ugly and political happens.

3) The regions that are likely to be hardest hit aren't that important to the survival of civilization.

***********

Oh, and cull the conspiracy theories. The reason nobody buys electric or fuel-cell cars is that they suck.
Electric cars are expensive and have short range, and can't be filled up at a gas station.
Fuel-Cell cars are REALLY expensive and can't be filled up at a gas station. And don't have awe-inspiring range, in most cases.

Never mind finding a mechanic...

Electric scooters do exist, though. My understanding is that they generally get about 200 mpg equivalent and have a useful range. I suppose that should be translated into "miles per kg of coal", though, given how their electricity is generated.
 

H0ncho

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Feb 4, 2008
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I thought about writing a post not quite unlike what you wrote, but you were in before me.

I agree with most of what you write: If you care about the environment and if you care about dependency upon foreign oil you should welcome higher oil prices, or you're either economically illiterate or a hypocrite. I do however not agree with your last sentence, which claims that it might in the end give a larger growth. Since I neither care about dependency upon foreign oil nor environmental concerns I think we will on net not benefit from higher oil prices. Why? It is simple. Almost free energy (such as 1.50$ per gallon gas) is far preferable to expensive energy.

Oh, and all you conspiracy theorists: "Big oil" controls (or actually they lease it from govt's) 7-13 % of the worlds oil reserves. They really can't manipulate the oil price the way you think. If you want to blame someone, blame government. They have made oil prices skyrocket because of interventionist wars in the middle east - and saber rattling against Iran certainly doesn't help. For Americans, they have inflated so much that you now need many more dollars to buy a gallon of crude oil than you used to.

Of course, the political division of labour remains as it has always been: The government fucks it up, market takes the blame.
The technology behind a stable, cost effective electric vehicle has been around for twenty years. More than one person has developed it, and every time the result is the same. The auto manufacturers or oil companies purchase this technology at any cost, then bury it like Jimmy Hoffa.
Bullshit. Tell me, why wouldn't car manufacturers developed this wonderful car of yours if it is so great? The car manufacturers doesn't own oil fields. With all the hybrids and electrical cars that are made nowadays, why are there none that can compete with 1.50$ gasoline?

Because that conspiracy theory of yours, like almost all others, is BS.
 

Thais

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Jun 12, 2008
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You know, I've always been less worried aobut "OMG the petro it is all gone!" than I am about what the byproducts/waste of some of the most explored alternatives are. Biofuels...you're still burning carbon, stupid. Electircs...you're burning COAL STUPID!!! Nuclear...um...we cant ever in the forseeable future get rid of that crap...


I know the economy and the socio-political situation are linked and are important, but dude...

when people stop running out of places to live where it's safe to eat the food grown, drink the water flowing down hill and breathe the damned air...capitalism and the socio-political mess that goes along with such a destructive and exploitative system ain't gonna look so priddy.