Why feminist gaming discussions confuse and infuriate me: the modern schism of reappropriation

[Snowbell]

Ok, that's it, enough with the feminism threads! All those in favour of becoming gender male so these silly gender arguments can stop say aye!

...

*a tumbleweed blows past in the gentle breeze*

'come clean' ok captcha, the truth is I'm just tired of everyone defining 'good' and 'bad' traits of women, can't we just let women be who they/we want to be? I only want to play my video games I don't want to have to keep analysing who I'm playing as, if it's a well written character can't I simply play the game?

If I switch to gender male, can I keep my vagina? Penis is all... gross and... wormy. It actually grows and moves! Why does no one else think that's horrifying?!

Of course you'd still have a vagina! Sex is biological whereas gender is the definition of how sexes are supposed to act as defined by society, so eg. gender men play video games and slob around the house whereas gender women go shopping all the time and squeal at shoes (these are obviously silly stereotypes, but I still know which one I'd rather be!)

What I'm saying in a terribly round about way is that gender defines how society expects you to be, and I'd rather be expected to behave as male than female, so although I wouldn't count myself as a transgender - I prefer to dress to my body type - men treat each other more as equals whereas women tend to throw each other under the bus a lot, having tired of fellow women putting me down for being pretty/not pretty enough/video gaming I would just prefer to be treated as a guy. From where I'm standing they're less petty with each other

I'm not sure I've made myself clear, just keep your sex organs and act however you want, whether it be as a guy or a girl ^_^

 

[Victoly]

Incidentally, it's rather comical that a number of people responding to this thread completely missed the fucking point. It was not "the same old feminist" thread.

It was easy to see that coming. The mere mention of the word "feminist" gets a lot of (mostly male) gamers worked up into a tizzy and they just have to share their oh-so-original opinions on the subject, whether or not those opinions happen to have anything to do with the actual topic of the post. You could make a post that reads, "Setting all issues of feminism and gender-discrimination aside, who is the better protagonist: Mario or Link?" and you'd end up with a number of the same replies you received in this thread.

That said, as others have also noted, you're also not doing yourself any favors with your overly-academic language. This is a video gaming forum, not a grad school sociology seminar. If you want to be understood, use language appropriate to your audience.

Now, to the topic at hand:
I see what you mean regarding a selective application of exclusive criteria for what makes a female character strong or weak, but I don't believe this is one of the primary issues driving the debate. This kind of thing usually only comes up once people have agreed on the basics and then are working out the minutia. I think that most of the debate (in the video game community, at least) surrounds much more basic contentions, i.e. whether or not feminism is a relevant or important issue to begin with.

 

[Noetherian]

What, no room for a well-written female character who exhibits mostly negative traits (associated with being female, let's say) but grows into someone respectable and feminist and excellent? I would take one of those.

(No, I don't have any examples from gaming off the top of my head, but Sansa Stark from Game of Thrones shows the potential to exemplify this type: initially a dreamy, boy-crazy teenaged girl who learns some hard lessons and begins to think for herself.)

I guess I don't fully understand why only one of Case 1 and Case 2 can be a good example of a feminist character. Can't we have characters who may be one or the other, or good despite being neither? It makes sense to me to argue for both categories and more because we really aren't to the level of choosing a perfect feminist character... we're still, as has been said, trying to argue that feminist (or simply/equivalently IMO better thought out) characters would be a good thing to have. My experience of feminist gaming discussions has also been that most of the frustration comes from trying to convince people that any of this is worth supporting at all.

 

[CentralScrtnzr]

Why do characters have to be ideologically approved? Do you know how boring ideologically approved characters are? People don't read the Iliad because Achilles and Agamemnon are perfect people who get along perfectly. In fact, that conflict makes the whole epic.

I'm glad that I'm too stupid to understand a word of this feminist/cultural/gender theory.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The feminist argument over video games is that there are female characters that are deliberately put there to pander to the male audience. They are dressed in inappropriate clothing for what they are doing, they play to the camera and there is a general assumption even in narrative that the player is male.

You see female characters don't need to be over the top in your face boobs and butt pandering to be sexy. I often site the cartoon series Avatar as being very good for female characters. They are pretty but their looks aren't the centre of their character and they certainly aren't there to pander to guys. Azula is one of the best villains I have seen and Katara is capable of being both tough and motherly. They both have negative traits or weaknesses.

No one is asking for every female video game character to be some sort of feminist Mary Sue. I don't sit in villages in Skyrim and glare at women sweeping their porch.

Clothes tend not to be the biggest issue (although we get a lot of inappropriate outfits) but they way a female character comports themselves while wearing those clothes. Let me use a comic book example to show you.

Spoiler: This is a redraw of Red Sonja Do you see in the last image how her posture has been improved and she looks about ten times more believable but is still attractive?

That switch is pretty much what the feminists are asking for along with female player characters, NPC's and camera (It's nice to see you Miranda's bum) not acting like the player is, by default, a guy especially when you are playing a female character.

(Not looking for an argument here just pointing out what the issue is)

I hope that clears things up OP.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Which makes Tenmars post above hilarious since he's going on a tangent against what he percieves to b third wave feminism, when it actually isn't. Equal opportunity/treatment were both part of the second wave, that it is still being discussed shows how much time it takes to change cultural and social norms.

Umm if you read who I quoted you see that I am working off ANOTHER posters definition of feminism. So umm yeah...

Only his definition is quite clearly wrong and even the quickest glance at wikipedia will tell you so. I mean, I could define 'sexism' as "anything I don't like that can tangentially be stretched to include gender" but I'd also get ripped apart for attempting to use that kind of definition. You were obviously attempting to speak from a position of authority, only I called you on it and your defense is "but my definition is different!".

Besides, what you were doing back in that other post was nothing but strawman bashing. Just pointing that out...

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Big words? Overly academic language?

I always wonder: is that really the sort of thing you want to be saying?

Precision is important in these discussions. I'm not going to pander because I'm not interested in talking to someone who can't suss out a few $5 words.

 

[Sephlock]

"If i learnt anything from that "Anita's done her research" thread, it's that a number of Escapists are more Feminist than they realise...but are just massively bias against the movement itself. "

Thats probably because of the women who do all sorts of crazy **** in the name of feminism and haven't been firmly denounced by their "sisters".