Why I fight for Caesar's Legion in Fallout

[Genocidicles]

I'm much more of a fan of Mr. House, I can't understand why more people don't side with him.

Because he makes you murder the Brotherhood! Y'know, the people who'll murder an entire outpost of Followers of the Apocalypse to ensure they don't get any of their precious secrets.

And in any of the endings where they're still around and there's no threat of repercussions from the NCR, they'll gladly rob innocent people of all their 'dangerous' technology.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I'm much more of a fan of Mr. House, I can't understand why more people don't side with him.

Because he makes you murder the Brotherhood! Y'know, the people who'll murder an entire outpost of Followers of the Apocalypse to ensure they don't get any of their precious secrets.

And in any of the endings where they're still around and there's no threat of repercussions from the NCR, they'll gladly rob innocent people of all their 'dangerous' technology.

Generally, they tend to dislike Mr. House because he's a xenophobic, megalomanical dictator. His idea of making the wasteland better is "either you conform to my ideals of what you should be (like with the tribes that formed the families on the strip) or I will exterminate you". He also has no interest in the world outside of New Vegas unless it can either benefit Vegas or might be a threat to Vegas.

He is by no means on the same level as cartoon-evil Caesar, but he definitely is in the darker shades of gray.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

I loved the shit out of the 5 or 6 hours I got to play of NV. Unfortunately, both it and Fallout 3 give me terrible vertigo and nausea T_T

Turn up yo FOV. It's a common thing. Try 85 to 90.

I have the console version. Is this a well known issue with that one as well?

Well you could be getting motion sickness form being to close to your TV. I heard it doesn't effect people as much if they sit farther away, like 10 feet. That's why MW2 got away with a tiny 55 FOV.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

Maybe the only bad thing or close to the absorb all societies involving NCR is when dealt with the enclave. The fact that the enclave made that super mutant mess then try to clean it up by killing more people is a huge crime. However pursing EVERYONE in the enclave after they are defeated is maybe to harsh, did the Allies do the same thing to the axis? The reason Rome did so well was because of the fact that they won their land using self defense involving, and the fact that their was already a capitol city.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I never thought the Legion was meant to be "evil" and the NCR were the "good guys". I think Obsidian was trying to echo the Old World vibe with the NCR as the civilization closest to the societal normalities we have here in present day. The NCR is essentially meant to represent history repeating itself, and considering how history went in Fallout, that's not meant to be seen as the "right way" to go about rebuilding civilization.

The Legion, I think, was more of a radical crack down on civil liberties for the sake of creating a civilization of order and structure that has more of a guarantee to not tear itself apart--whether you like it or not. Essentially, give up almost all individual rights so that the the civilization as a whole can work and endure longer.

New Vegas, the cause of the conflict, is representative of these opposing ideologies: it's a city of sin and self-destruction, but it's a person's right to do such things to themselves. So what to do? Take away their free will, or let them slowly waste themselves away?

It's actually a very nice moral parallel.

All the same, I still shot Caesar's fucking head off with an anti-material rifle.

Pretty much my playthrough.

Which part? The philosophical moral parallel of the Legion actually bringing order to the self-destructive chaos of New Vegas or shooting Caesar's face with an anti-material rifle?

 

[Nomanslander]

You know during Nazi Germany, the world saw some of the lowest crime rates that's ever been recorded in western civilization.

0o

 

[teh_Canape]

To reiterate some of the above, did you play Fallout 1

so far I only played Fallout (from the classic trilogy, have yet to go for 2 and Tactics)
but this is the reason I went with NCR when I started
was like "they grow up so fast, I can still remember when I had to save their asses from a radscorpion infestation with only a 10 MM pistol and a bunch of armor piercers

ended up going with Yes Man because I didn't wanna destroy the Bro'hood bunker, if only because of Veronica

 

[Jaeke]

Everyone knows that the Mormons pose the greatest threat to the Mojave.

We... we do??

Uh, I mean... WE DO!!
BOW DOWN TO YOUR FREAKISHLY-NICE OVERLORDS!!!

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Which part? The philosophical moral parallel of the Legion actually bringing order to the self-destructive chaos of New Vegas or shooting Caesar's face with an anti-material rifle?

I think your parallel is slightly faulty though, since the Legion is explicitly stated to not be a long-term solution to the issue of the anarchic wasteland. In the short term the Legion can certainly bring order to the Mojave and all of its' territories back in Arizona but in the long term it will dissolve once Caesar dies. In that respect the Legion seems to be sort of a parallel to the mongol conquests of the 13th century, they will leave a mark on all the territory they subjugate but as a de facto "nation" they will not last.

The NCR however has the potential for longevity but struggles with having over-extended and lacking the resources and political acumen necessary to get a firm hold on all their recent conquests. If they get through their rough patch they will eventually provide stability even for the Mojave, chances are that no one alive during the events of Fallout: New Vegas will be alive to see it though (Ghouls and Super Mutants excluded).

 

[Sande45]

I was really disappointed with the way Caesar's Legion was done in New Vegas. They were way too evil for me to side with for any other reason than experiencing the story from their point of view (and trophies).

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

So you're A okay with crucifixion (one of the most brutal forms of execution), slavery, rape and mass murder. ooookay.

It's nice to know that you think discarding all rational behaviour, compassion and empathy in society is the way to rebuild it.

Great.

I for one will be over here with the non psychopathic people who treat people like people and not like animals. :|

I pretty much think the Followers of the Apocalypse would be the ones I would side with since they are, by and large, rational human beings.

You know during Nazi Germany, the world saw some of the lowest crime rates that's ever been recorded in western civilization.

0o

I'm guessing that's excluding mass genocide...-.-

 

[Edible Avatar]

This is the major reason i never finished New Vegas, despite putting over 200 hours into it.

-The Legion is a Autocracy of the worst kind, reminds me of the Ostrogoths that pillaged Rome. I thought they would eventually collapse on their own.

-The NCR has questionable motives, the rich control everything and there are no checks on executive power. Honestly, they can't hold on to New Vegas, let alone take care of it's citizens.

-House has good intentions, but he is still a dictator. Don't interpret that as a bad thing, as he's benevolent and wants his city to prosper, but i can't shake the feeling that 1 guy with absolute power (who has a infinite lifespan) could become...apathetic.... to the desires of his subjects.

So I chose Yes Man's idea and got the "Good Independent" ending.
[sub]And i make believe that i formed a governing body of representatives from all over the Mojave >_> [/sub]

 

[Madkipz]

(There seems to be a lot of fallout threads lately...)

Fallout is one of my favorite series. The current apple of my eye is New Vegas, partly because, as Yahtzee would say, it's a water cooler game. It's fun to talk about what you did, who you killed, where you went, etc.

It seems that a lot of people I talk to are shocked that I always side with the Legion, being that they see the NCR as the 'good guys' and the Legion as the 'bad guy.' I don't think it's that cut and dry.

First of all, most of the Mojave has been fed tons of NCR propaganda. "Here we are, here to unite the wastes! All lets all converge and stand together under the NCR flag!" they say. What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people. There are plenty of people across the wastes who'll tell you of terrible things NCR troops have done. They want land and power, just like any empire. At least the Legion is up-front about it. And that intimidation is what helps keep Legion territory safe. Unlike the NCR, who spreads themselves incredibly thin with poorly-trained, poorly-armed volunteers, Legion takes care of their own. I mean, if you were a bandit, where would you rather set up shop, the territory that says "Cross us and we'll arrest you and throw you in jail!" or the one that says "Cross us and you'll be crucified and your wife and children will be sold into slavery?" Legion ain't nothin' to fuck with.

That segways nicely into my next point; slavery. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it's morally wrong. But it's something of a necessary evil IMHO. I mean, for one thing, free labor. But more importantly, the threat of slavery is a powerful bargaining chip. When the Legion conquers your territory, you can either give your children up to be slaves or soldiers. Any parent would pick the latter, thus growing the Legion's powerful army.

I don't want to sound like I'm pro-slavery IRL. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am for it in the fictional land of Fallout though. The NCR wants to rebuild the old world as it was. Sort of like, if society was on level five, and the war knocked it down to one, NCR wants to rebuild at level five. That's just not going to happen. Civilizations have to start at the bottom and build their way up, and the Legion realizes it. They may seem evil on the surface, but I think they're the best hope for the Mojave. The NCR is bloated, corrupt, and incompetent. As my dad would say, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

I never bothered to do fallout 1-2 before jumping into Fallout 3 and NV, and what amazed me the most in NV was that you were apparently some gal going by the monicer of "courier Six", and well. I`d just been shot by Benny so life had its own twists and turns, but ultimately i sided with the people of Goodsprings and destroyed the powder gangers before heading to prim and doing them a likewise favour. As the bartender put it.

Why would you do it differently? Why would you side with the powder gangers and the legion? They are both factions that will eventually run themselves into the ground without you. Why give them your allegiance? A courier is as we get to find out in lonesome road some kind of force of nature. The messages and packages they carry are rather impressive and faction shattering, plus then nipton happened and the proof was in the pudding.

Naturally I metagame things, and already knew that the legion for all their intended evil had less depth than the slavers and chem dealers of fallout 2. Thre just wasn`t an extensive option to support Caesar with my body and offer myself to him even after removing the tumor in his head.
Its kind of like the Kahns, the fiends and even NCR. Theres just not enough meat there to enjoy being with them and he doesn`t really want you in his faction.

The brotherhood does however, and Veronica is a beautiful introductory character. With her as your partner you`ll always eventually seek them out, and the quests there while matching in quantity at least they had more purpose than most of what you get from the other factions.

From that point on I followed the brotherhood agenda, and went with a YESman ending. Not so i could become a dictator in place of house, but because the brotherhood of steel would then basically have the perfect base and technological prowess to situate themselves as a dominant faction(especially after nuking both factions in lonesome road).

Veronica is right though. They are dicks at times, but if they had the NV strip and you supported the elder then the faction that was previously outmanned but not outgunned gets the robotpower to stay afloat, the superweapon that their previous elder researched, and opportunity to evolve. The ending while railroaded into NCR vs Legion with a wildcard house sorta wormed its way in the screens of the epilogue, but i still like to headcannon a better brotherhood like the one from fallout 3 or even fallout 1 that basically isn`t as close minded and such.

 

[MrGalactus]

(There seems to be a lot of fallout threads lately...)

Fallout is one of my favorite series. The current apple of my eye is New Vegas, partly because, as Yahtzee would say, it's a water cooler game. It's fun to talk about what you did, who you killed, where you went, etc.

It seems that a lot of people I talk to are shocked that I always side with the Legion, being that they see the NCR as the 'good guys' and the Legion as the 'bad guy.' I don't think it's that cut and dry.

First of all, most of the Mojave has been fed tons of NCR propaganda. "Here we are, here to unite the wastes! All lets all converge and stand together under the NCR flag!" they say. What they mean though is "Join us or we'll mark you as hostile and wipe you out." As we can see from the Khans, they don't really give a shit about people. There are plenty of people across the wastes who'll tell you of terrible things NCR troops have done. They want land and power, just like any empire. At least the Legion is up-front about it. And that intimidation is what helps keep Legion territory safe. Unlike the NCR, who spreads themselves incredibly thin with poorly-trained, poorly-armed volunteers, Legion takes care of their own. I mean, if you were a bandit, where would you rather set up shop, the territory that says "Cross us and we'll arrest you and throw you in jail!" or the one that says "Cross us and you'll be crucified and your wife and children will be sold into slavery?" Legion ain't nothin' to fuck with.

That segways nicely into my next point; slavery. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, it's morally wrong. But it's something of a necessary evil IMHO. I mean, for one thing, free labor. But more importantly, the threat of slavery is a powerful bargaining chip. When the Legion conquers your territory, you can either give your children up to be slaves or soldiers. Any parent would pick the latter, thus growing the Legion's powerful army.

I don't want to sound like I'm pro-slavery IRL. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am for it in the fictional land of Fallout though. The NCR wants to rebuild the old world as it was. Sort of like, if society was on level five, and the war knocked it down to one, NCR wants to rebuild at level five. That's just not going to happen. Civilizations have to start at the bottom and build their way up, and the Legion realizes it. They may seem evil on the surface, but I think they're the best hope for the Mojave. The NCR is bloated, corrupt, and incompetent. As my dad would say, they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

So, stealing peoples lives away from them and forcing them to bend to your will is good because it gets results? sounds pretty pure evil to me, bud.

The choice is a lesser of two evils. I think New Vegas is interesting because I believe the most evil character and the most righteous character would choose the Yes Man ending. From the bad point of view, you're overtaking Mr.House, fighting away the Legion invaders, and strongarming the NCR out of the Mojave so that you can have your own standing army of securitrons, and your own massive territory to rule over.
From the good perspective, you're liberating NV from the shadowy, self-appointed, infallible king of the strip, so the people can have a voice for themselves. You're forced to defend yourself against the Legion, because they've shown they're irrational, and only respond to force, and you're diplomatically rejecting the rule of the NCR, because they've shown they are untrustworthy, ineffective, and poorly organised, all because you want a free, independent, war-free Mojave for it's citizens.

The choice between the Legion and the NCR is a choice between two evils. Both are as bad as each other, the difference being that the Legion is not hypocritical like the NCR, who claim to be the lawful good, despite committing atrocities and rotting from corruption. The one (huge) point the NCR has in it's favour is that it doesn't practice slavery. They allow their subjects to have their own rights, and freedoms, and they supposedly condemn torture and other breaches of rights.

The only reason I can see for choosing the Legion is if you crave power for yourself, you believe the Legion will win the war, and you fear what they'll do to you if you don't become one of them, or you think callously, like Caesar. You believe prosperity, competency, and cold efficiency for yourself and your territory is worth the years of thousands of unwilling workers. the only reason the Legion isn't considered corrupt, is because what is left to be corrupted?

 

[Studsmack]

I agree with was Cass has to say about the NCR:
NCR may not be perfect but they are the best we have.

What Cass said, essentially. This is basically the opinion I had for siding with the NCR. The Legion lifestyle isn't something I can accept, virtually or otherwise.

That, and me being from California... it just felt right to join the New California Republic. And have you seen that Ranger armor!? Splooge!

Side note: Anyone else love the gray areas and pragmatism in Obsidian's games? I love me some BioWare, but black and white wears thin.