Why I play Dungeons and Dragons Online

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epaulet

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Mar 19, 2009
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lerincho said:
epaulet said:
I was downloading when I read this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202

I stopped the download for now... so you can permanently make your character poorly built just because Turbine decides to balance the game? Why would I invest too much time into a character who I can't respec?
there are 4 different version of character planners that players have created. there are enough tools that you can use prior to doing anything within game, to help elimnate errors.

I have characters that have been effected by these changes, and there is always something new you learn you can do from the one you believe to be "broken".
While I've always adapted to changes in a game rather than complain. Reason for adapting is simply that you can always change it up a bit. Sure you can always make the best out of the changes, but that's not quite the same.

I don't think anything in MMOs except for things like your characters race/sex/class (although maybe not the last one here because of multi classing) should be permanent. Even at great pain, there should be a way to change your character if you do indeed mess up, whether it was your fault or not. I really don't know if I can commit to working on a character only to have my hopes at making the character I want shattered because of a change.
 

DivaGamer

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epaulet said:
I was downloading when I read this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202

I stopped the download for now... so you can permanently make your character poorly built just because Turbine decides to balance the game? Why would I invest too much time into a character who I can't respec?
Well, unlike other MMOs DDO isn't very cookie cutter about character builds. So it's possible for newer players to make a mess of their first character. I've found that I needed more smarts to play DDO than it took me to play AoC and Vanguard. It's worth saying that there's quite a lot of respeccing that can be done in DDO.

On the flip side, in three years, I've still got all my characters (13 maxed, and 2 lowbies). I haven't eliminated and rerolled any of them, in spite of the balancing that has taken place.. Thanks to the built in ability to respec Racial/Class Enhancements and switch out Feats, it hasn't been necessary. :)

From what I experienced while playing other MMOs, gaming companies are always rebalancing MMOs. There's also always an outcry by their respective players who claim that their characters have become broken. MMOs are always a work in progress, so with that in mind; change is a way of life for the MMO gamer.

DivaGamer
;)
 

lerincho

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Mar 25, 2009
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epaulet said:
lerincho said:
epaulet said:
I was downloading when I read this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202

I stopped the download for now... so you can permanently make your character poorly built just because Turbine decides to balance the game? Why would I invest too much time into a character who I can't respec?
there are 4 different version of character planners that players have created. there are enough tools that you can use prior to doing anything within game, to help elimnate errors.

I have characters that have been effected by these changes, and there is always something new you learn you can do from the one you believe to be "broken".
While I've always adapted to changes in a game rather than complain. Reason for adapting is simply that you can always change it up a bit. Sure you can always make the best out of the changes, but that's not quite the same.

I don't think anything in MMOs except for things like your characters race/sex/class (although maybe not the last one here because of multi classing) should be permanent. Even at great pain, there should be a way to change your character if you do indeed mess up, whether it was your fault or not. I really don't know if I can commit to working on a character only to have my hopes at making the character I want shattered because of a change.
yes it's true, that if you multiclass wrong you can't make up for that "error", but if you chose a wrong feat, easy to change. you can always change out enhancements, but how you level and were you put the skill points does get a bit sticky sometimes.
 

lerincho

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Mar 25, 2009
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ep, the one thing to keep in mind, build doesn't really define how well you can do. if you are open to learning and pay attention with some hints people talk about during quests, your grasp of the game will be amazing. if you go in thinking you know everything, the game will not be for you. there is a learning curve, but attitude on how people play as they are new dictates how much people will help out.


with that said, come to argonnessan when you download, and look for me. lerincho, i will gladly help you out.
 

thiosk

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As I read through this post, i started thinking, maybe i'll try mmo's again after a long and painful wow addiction.

then i saw the guy who playes 12-18 hours a day.

Back to no mmo policy for me tyvm.
 

Lorichie

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Mar 20, 2008
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thiosk said:
As I read through this post, i started thinking, maybe i'll try mmo's again after a long and painful wow addiction.

then i saw the guy who playes 12-18 hours a day.

Back to no mmo policy for me tyvm.
you may have misunderstood, so let me clarify, just in case:

I CHOOSE to play 12-18 hours a day. I retired very early in rl, my wife is disabled and i did so to take care of her. My only outlet or release is in the online games that i play. I in no way feel i need to, for any reason, game play, grinding, what have you, play as much as i do. I enjoy the game very much and i choose to play as much as i do purely on my own accord. I am the exception, not the rule. There are not many folks who play as much as i do, and you do not need to do so to do well in the game. There are many folks who do just fine and only play four hours a day, about as much as you prob play on console game.

Just wanted to clarify why i said what i said,

R
 

thiosk

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Lorichie said:
hey no, i am not one to judge and will never do so, even if the post comes accross that way. I played 12-18 hours of wow today and i hadn't retired and my fiance wasn't ill.


if i start another mmo, i will play 12-18 hours a day.

hell, i played 12-18 hours a day of Tribalwars, and thats a frickin' browser flash game.

no competitive gaming for thio.
nonono
 

ghirmeshk

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Lorichie said:
thiosk said:
As I read through this post, i started thinking, maybe i'll try mmo's again after a long and painful wow addiction.

then i saw the guy who playes 12-18 hours a day.

Back to no mmo policy for me tyvm.
you may have misunderstood, so let me clarify, just in case:

I CHOOSE to play 12-18 hours a day. I retired very early in rl, my wife is disabled and i did so to take care of her. My only outlet or release is in the online games that i play. I in no way feel i need to, for any reason, game play, grinding, what have you, play as much as i do. I enjoy the game very much and i choose to play as much as i do purely on my own accord. I am the exception, not the rule. There are not many folks who play as much as i do, and you do not need to do so to do well in the game. There are many folks who do just fine and only play four hours a day, about as much as you prob play on console game.

Just wanted to clarify why i said what i said,

R
In fact, DDO is even casual gamer friendly because none of the UBER raid loot is necessary to have successful end game characters.
 

Lorichie

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Mar 20, 2008
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thiosk said:
Lorichie said:
hey no, i am not one to judge and will never do so, even if the post comes accross that way. I played 12-18 hours of wow today and i hadn't retired and my fiance wasn't ill.


if i start another mmo, i will play 12-18 hours a day.

hell, i played 12-18 hours a day of Tribalwars, and thats a frickin' browser flash game.

no competitive gaming for thio.
nonono

well, come on in, you would fit right in then :) i can understand that, its hard not to, especially when the game is shiny and new, and judging by what you said, yes 12-18 hours a day for a better part of two years is what you will be looking forward too...on the other hand, if that opinion is accurate, the average player just coming in at a few hours a night, who likes to level, cap, start another toon, level, cap has much more content and time spent years-wise to look forward to.

i understand the "addiction" tho

R
 

ntomlin63

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Mar 19, 2009
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By the way, on the topic of creating a messed up character. My first and main character is a human paladin. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, had no input form any source other than I like playing paladins in PnP D&D. So my guy, Gaspar on Sarlona is a 28 point build that I tried to make as a PnP paladin. As a result I scattered my stats and feats and enhancements over a range of abilities trying to be "balanced" in a PnP sense. Gaspar is really a pretty inefficient character, verging on if not actually "gimped" pretty badly. But you know what? Lots of people claim that they absolutely LOVE to play with me. Not because my character is wonderfully uber and min/maxed/twinked to the limit, but rather because they enjoy my style of play, my conversation while playing, my sense of humor and other social interactions. So DDO really is, at least in my experience, a game where the community and social aspects to a large degree can overshadow the are you uber or not with your character. I have had people exhibit endless patience with my not knowing the quests. As I get older I have realized I can't memorize all those layouts the way I once could especially not as fast as I once could. But people don't mind because we have fun together. DDO is one of the few games I have ever played where with the right people in a group you don't even mind total party wipes now and then. Its all good fun and sometimes the wipes are the most fun at all.

I can not stress enough that DDO is far more than a video game on a computer. Its a community of wonderful people brought together by their common love of a gaming genre sharing wonderful adventures together.
 

PhoenixFire31

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Mar 23, 2009
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ghirmeshk said:
Lorichie said:
thiosk said:
As I read through this post, i started thinking, maybe i'll try mmo's again after a long and painful wow addiction.

then i saw the guy who playes 12-18 hours a day.

Back to no mmo policy for me tyvm.
you may have misunderstood, so let me clarify, just in case:

I CHOOSE to play 12-18 hours a day. I retired very early in rl, my wife is disabled and i did so to take care of her. My only outlet or release is in the online games that i play. I in no way feel i need to, for any reason, game play, grinding, what have you, play as much as i do. I enjoy the game very much and i choose to play as much as i do purely on my own accord. I am the exception, not the rule. There are not many folks who play as much as i do, and you do not need to do so to do well in the game. There are many folks who do just fine and only play four hours a day, about as much as you prob play on console game.

Just wanted to clarify why i said what i said,

R
In fact, DDO is even casual gamer friendly because none of the UBER raid loot is necessary to have successful end game characters.
I think he's recognizing that MMO's are addictive for him, and cudos for that. DDO CAN be just as addicting as WoW even without the need for the UBERest gear.

As for the respeccing: In DDO you can respec your feat choices, enhancements, and spells (Wizards swap at any rest shrine/tavern, Sorcs/Bards swap 1 spell every 3 days.) You cannot change (atm we never know what will happen) race, alignment(matters in DDO), skills, or class.
 

Da_Schwartz

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Can't we ever have one thread that doesn't drift off into WoW...You own the entire MMO universe. lets us have our thread >.<
 

thiosk

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If i play an MMO,

I will have the uberest gear.

even if it takes years.

add that i like dnd but never got to play, and you have the makings of a real problem.
 

Lorichie

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ntomlin63 said:
By the way, on the topic of creating a messed up character. My first and main character is a human paladin. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, had no input form any source other than I like playing paladins in PnP D&D. So my guy, Gaspar on Sarlona is a 28 point build that I tried to make as a PnP paladin. As a result I scattered my stats and feats and enhancements over a range of abilities trying to be "balanced" in a PnP sense. Gaspar is really a pretty inefficient character, verging on if not actually "gimped" pretty badly. But you know what? Lots of people claim that they absolutely LOVE to play with me. Not because my character is wonderfully uber and min/maxed/twinked to the limit, but rather because they enjoy my style of play, my conversation while playing, my sense of humor and other social interactions. So DDO really is, at least in my experience, a game where the community and social aspects to a large degree can overshadow the are you uber or not with your character. I have had people exhibit endless patience with my not knowing the quests. As I get older I have realized I can't memorize all those layouts the way I once could especially not as fast as I once could. But people don't mind because we have fun together. DDO is one of the few games I have ever played where with the right people in a group you don't even mind total party wipes now and then. Its all good fun and sometimes the wipes are the most fun at all.

I can not stress enough that DDO is far more than a video game on a computer. Its a community of wonderful people brought together by their common love of a gaming genre sharing wonderful adventures together.
In every online game i've ever played and i suspect this to be true when speaking of console games as well, there is always a demographic of the community, or in the game, that believes that anything less than the absolute best you can be, is not worth playing. The power-gamer, meta-gamer, whatever its called in whatever community is present everywhere. However, they dont usually make up the largest percent of the player base, yet if you choose this style of play, you wont be alone by any means. Not being able to respec your character honestly i feel really affects the meta-gamer more than the casual person, in fact the casual gamer, which through various demographics probably make up the largest part of the population of any game, would probably never even know how different his character was to anyone else's, and even if they did, it would not affect them in any way, except for the knowledge that they could have made that character better than they did.

As far as developer changes which makes a build useless? No character i have ever seen is useless. It may not end up how you envisioned it after a change, but online games are fluid. They are ever-changing and patched constantly. You dont join an online game believing that it will never change. but thats my opinion and i understand its not shared by all.

As the op stated above, 99 percent of the time, its not the build that people remember, its the player behind it, and thats true in any game, imo.

R
 

silverdraggie

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Mar 21, 2008
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epaulet said:
I was downloading when I read this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202

I stopped the download for now... so you can permanently make your character poorly built just because Turbine decides to balance the game? Why would I invest too much time into a character who I can't respec?
What you won't find in that thread is the fact that the devs ARE trying to figure out the best way to go about it. However, bug fixes, people demanding more content, demanding odds and end things tend to get a higher priority.

Also, the "poor built" character in one person's control, may end up being a uber build in someone elses control. I've seen some builds better known as psycho builds. There is no way I could play those effectively, but I've seen other players that just wipe the floor with mobs using them. Also, when you build a character, build for end game. That is the lvl 20. I've been doing this ever sense the cap was 10. I've only re rolled twice and that is because the character wasn't doing what I wanted because I changed MY mind.
 

Redweaver

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My personal pros and cons of DDO. Sorry if it's too long.


Pros

Combat
Combat is one of the biggest things that sets DDO apart from other MMO offerings, and is arguably the best thing about the game. It's fast paced action, has a very FPS feel to it (despite the lack of first person view which is coming with the next patch) and is twitch based. It is NOT auto attack plus hotkeys like WoW, EQ or LoTRO. Combat in DDO moves...you can't just start attacking a mob and then go make a sandwich. It's not a game that you can type chat with your guild and other various friends in the thick of a raid. But if you're an XBox live player coming from something like Call of Duty, you should feel comfortable with the controls...as a matter of fact, DDO can be configured to be played with an XBox controller plugged into your PC! Combat emphasizes collision detection, in other words, if your weapon model doesn't intersect the monster's body, you don't get a to-hit roll at all. Projectiles, including many spells, can be dodged and physical ones can be blocked with your shield. You have a button you can use to raise your shield and actively defend. You can tumble in combat. Enemies don't stand still and neither should you.

Voice Chat and LFM tool
Other titles have tools for the community that play those games to get together. You can turn on LFG flags and use various chat channels. DDO integrated voice chat early in it's life and never looked back. As a result, players from games like WoW might feel like there is no one playing the game and they are adventuring in a ghost town. There really isn't much type chat going on that I've seen. An occasional question gets answered, I try to say something when I notice it, but having voice be such an integral part of gameplay makes the chat window easy to forget. Besides, this game is all about the group, and group chat is typically lively, both voice and type (yes, some folks don't have or can't use microphones for one reason or another...they manage fine) Here we don't get groups by being LFG so much as we open up the social window to find groups that are LFM (looking for more) and if we're looking to do a specific quest, we start our own group advertisement on that LFM window. To any new player of DDO some of the best advice you can get is to make friends with the LFM tool as quickly as you can, learn to use it and you will be well rewarded with all the grouping you can desire. That's not to say there aren't slow days, but if you want a group, you can make it happen. Shrinking violets and shy guys get no sympathy.

Dungeons
Simply put, DDO offers some of the best dungeon crawling experiences of any title out there. All dungeons are instanced for each party, so the developers have a lot of freedom to make destructable environments, fiendish traps, multiple pathways and all manner of puzzles, tricks and fun. One of the early complaints was a lack of randomness which made dungeons quickly go stale from repetition, and while too much repetition can make anything grow boring, the DDO devs have done much to randomize things such as trap locations, rare monster spawns, chest locations and other elements that keeps things interesting these days. Whether its collapsing floors, monsters bursting out from behind exploding doors, the sudden schling of sharp blades thrusting out of walls or a portcullis dropping behind the group trapping them with several angry looking bad guys, DDO delivers on all fronts with rich action-RPG experience oozing from every pore.

Multiclassing
One of the downfalls, in my opinion, of games like EQ is that all characters of X class at Y level are basically identical. Sure, Bob the Wizard might have the Staff of Thingsgoboom while Steve the Wizard wields the mighty Scepter of Blowstuffup, but they pretty much have identical spellbooks, and you can invite either one into your group if you are looking to fill the arcane glass cannon DPS roll. In DDO no two characters need ever be the same. Make a pure cleric...do you want a battle cleric thats built to stand in the front lines with the other tanks, taking the punishment while dishing out the divine fury of your diety or would you like to be a more traditional healer cleric keeping your comrades standing and swinging to the last? Sure, WoW has talent trees and EQ has AA and many games of that style have a certain amount of customizability within the classes. But can you be a spellcasting rogue in WoW, blending all the arcane might of a wizard with trapfinding skills and melee damage from your sneak attacks? DDO's multiclassing system allows almost unprecidented freedom of character creation and customization.

Chests
A seemingly minor thing, but your loot is your own. Every person in the group gets his or her own pull out of the chest. There is no ninja looting, it's simply not possible. Theres no hogging all the loot by being fastest clicker or having a loot hotkey set up. Everyone gets their fair share and that's that. Any complaints about bad luck can be taken up with the RNG.

Cons

Small World
Everything in DDO is instanced, even the public areas. There are no vast tracts of land to get lost in, there is no exploring over the next hill to see whats beyond the horizon. This is a feature, though, not a fault. Fans of large, open worlds with miles and miles of virtual real estate will likely feel rather clostrophobic in DDO, but the big plus of this lack is that you don't spend half your available game time just getting to the location you want to play in. Getting logged in, in a group and into a dungeon, in other words, to start actually playing the game can literaly take only a matter of minutes. There are explorer areas that are just sort of outdoor quests, and they are walled in, but some of the areas and dungeons are quite large indeed, especially when you consider theres only a handful of other people in the zone with you, and you're not competing with anyone for spawns or drops. Somewhat related to this is a lack of mounts, but on this point you must understand, they are not needed in this game. Other games need horses and griffons and motorcycles because they have all this vast real estate. Get rid of the one and logic simply follows that there's no need to spend time coding the other. Paladins are sad pandas without their warhorses, though.

Learning Curve
Despite many recent changes and vast improvements, DDO is still a very difficult game for many people to learn. Twitch combat that has more to do with the speed of your fingers than the stats of your character, a deep multiclassing system and a host of character abilities, the possibility of perma-gimping your with a leveling up mistake, voice chat to get used to using, a community thats mostly in the elder game, and many other idiosyncrasies make DDO a little less forgiving to new players than many other MMOs. Turbine has done much to help here, however. The new Korthos Island intro area, hirelings (which can make soloing much more doable at the lower to middle levels), premade build paths, tons of new named low level gear and other features make getting into DDO much easier than it was three years ago. But the biggest stumbling block seems to be in the newbies themselves...if you come to DDO to play another WoW or EQ clone, you're not going to have much fun because DDO doesn't play like most other MMOs. It is very likely, unless you've played Dungeons and Dragons before DDO, that your first character won't be very good. Don't be afraid to delete and reroll, even if you've only made it through a couple of levels...the knowledge and experience gained will make your second (and third if needed) efforts all the better. Use the premade build paths. Though not uber, these premades are playable and have the leveling decisions made for you. Most players have a soft spot in their hearts for thier first characters, including me, but I can almost garuntee that most second and third characters are "better" (as in, less gimp)...and not just because of the favor reward unlockables.

Small Population
DDO is a niche game, there's no denying that. It is never going to have the multimillion sub counts of WoW. Unfortunately, many jaded gamers three years ago wrote DDO off because it didn't kill WoW. This attitude persists even now in some darker recesses of the gaming portion of the interwebs with any MMO released. As long as MMO success is only allowed to be judged against WoW, all MMOs will continue to be considered failures. DDO's community is pretty dedicated to the game and we do love it so...even if some of its flaws are teethgindingly frustrating. Most of us are thrilled to see newbies joining, and I'm here to let anyone interested in the game know, there is population, there are groups to be found, the PUG scene is alive and well on all servers and I hope I have convinced some of you to give it a try. The 10 day trial is free. Our population is global.

Grind
This is something that no MMO can ever really get away from, gamers are going to find grind in every corner of gamedom. We must all come to our own grind-equalibrium. Some MMOs have a mob grind...find a spot, camp mobs til your eyes bleed, repeat when you wake up and pry the "Y" key out of your forehead. Some have a raid grind for gear so you can be powerful enough for the next raid to get that gear so you can do the raid after. Some have the PvP grind or the crafting grind or whatever. DDO has quest grinding (and some would say reroll or alt grinding). Me, this is a grind I can tolerate because I'm not killing the same mob in the same location over and over, I'm not spending 14 hours poopsocking my way through the Plane of Lewtgrynder with 72 of my closest annonymous internet acquantances for two pieces of gear (one of which everyone in the raid has already), I'm not crafting 19,835 Stone widgets so I can start on Metal widgets, neither of which are actually useful for anything other than raising my crafting skill and bleeding my coinpurse dry. You can, if you like, run the same quest in DDO over and over...and I know plenty of veteran players who do just that with the high XP quests to rocket passed the low levels (which could be why many newbs see the same quests on the LFM all the time) as well as players ginding a particular chest in a quest for a certain item drop. Not to mention the "crafting" Turbine started implementing a couple mods ago which requires grinding certain quests for the ingredients. But it is entirely in the players hands to reduce this grind to a minimum and each raid (save one) has a three day lockout timer per character. I personally don't repeat quests very often on any given night, but the content is limited, so you will eventually run out of new quests to do...as long as I'm not running the same quest more than two or three times in a day, I don't feel like I'm grinding.

Content
Honestly, I feel anymore that this is really only a problem for the long time players. A new player starting today has a ton of content in front of them. Unfortunately, Turbine launched the game woefully short of quests and has never (and likely won't ever) recovered with their oldest players. Also, being that it's a niche game without the huge sub count, updates have gotten a bit further apart than they were at launch. This and advertisement are Turbines two greatest failings with DDO. My biggest ***** with the game is that it is uber-awesome with leetsauce and entirely too underfunded, underadvertised, and underrated.

DDO is a great game, and lots of fun...but it is what it is, and it isn't what it isn't. Turbine does a great job keeping DDO focused on what it does best, which is offering tight group play, dynamic and interactive quests, and fast-paced, furious, real-time combat action. More gamers need to appreciate DDO for what it is and does well, not what it doesn't do the same as some other game. DDO certainly deserves better than it got, from reviewers and critics, from Atari marketing, and most importantly from people giving it an honest, open-minded try.

Been playing the game since late alpha/early beta and I'll probably be playing til the lights go out. I hope to see many new players from the Escapist and I'm sure Sarlona will welcome you with open arms. I think there are some other servers too, but they're not important.
 

Lorichie

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Mar 20, 2008
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Good post Redweaver, i'll mention one thing out of it and its off to get some gaming done...
Population:
As said earlier, i play a lot, more than the average person. I've played for almost three years and all those hours most every day. I have 16 characters on Khyber alone, on one account alone. I have never, in all that time lacked for anything to do. I've recently gotten bored, but not because i have nothing to do, i still have many characters to cap, many more items to get them, little more money to make, and i dont raid. never liked it much, if i decided to raid, well that would be even more to do.

The point to this is, we have a small population, that fact is pretty well known, and even tho we do, the fact that someone can play as much as i do and not run out of things to do, speaks volumes for the game. I could only imagine if we had only twice as much people, and i think, in my mind, for our game a population as large as Wow's is not needed. This game is far and above most other MMORPG's out there for the reasons listed above, if we were to add a much larger community to that list, this game, in its own way, would garner as much attention as wow. again, my opinion only.
R
 

ntomlin63

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Mar 19, 2009
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Oh by the way, don't get the wrong idea there are things I dislike about my favorite game. I am not trying to whitewash or snowjob anything. My two biggest pet peeves are enemy casters always seem to make their concentration checks and they never ever ever seem to run out of spell points the way PC casters do.