Why I think Elder Scrolls Online has great potential

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loc978

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Not a TES fan, so I won't be trying it anyway... but there's one thing I'd like to weigh in on.

Friendly Lich said:
3. Organic/"manual" Combat: YOU will have to aim your sword blows and spells just like in Skyrim. No more computer to auto target enemy players with a press of the tab button like in so many other MMOs. This will take more skill and will make combat more realistic and exciting.
This feature in an online RPG is and always has been a bad idea. Prepare for lag teleportation, kids. I'm not even just talking about PvP. In a persistent world held together on a single server, you are going to have desynchs. A lot of them. That mob may be right in front of you on your screen, but the server thinks it kept on running and is behind you... and the server is always right.

Mind you, if an online game with a persistent world one day achieves perfect network synchronization with all of its users, this playstyle will be a great idea... but the tech just isn't there yet.
 

Schizocorpse

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loc978 said:
This feature in an online RPG is and always has been a bad idea. Prepare for lag teleportation, kids. I'm not even just talking about PvP. In a persistent world held together on a single server, you are going to have desynchs. A lot of them. That mob may be right in front of you on your screen, but the server thinks it kept on running and is behind you... and the server is always right.

Mind you, if an online game with a persistent world one day achieves perfect network synchronization with all of its users, this playstyle will be a great idea... but the tech just isn't there yet.
That single server will very likely be divided over hundreds of shards located around the globe so I think we'll be alright.

Admittedly, I am very curious as to how it will actually work.
 

Dandark

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I would love to play this game. I have hopes for it and would look forward it if not for one thing that ruins everything. One problem that if solved would make be instantly play and likely enjoy this game, probably enough to buy stuff on it.

GET RID OF THE DAMN SUBSCRIPTION FEE!
 

Apointicus

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Dandark said:
I would love to play this game. I have hopes for it and would look forward it if not for one thing that ruins everything. One problem that if solved would make be instantly play and likely enjoy this game, probably enough to buy stuff on it.

GET RID OF THE DAMN SUBSCRIPTION FEE!
Zenimax (From TESO FAQ) said:
We have not yet announced the business model for The Elder Scrolls Online . When we do, we'll be sure to share the news on our website and social channels ( Facebook , Twitter , Google+ ), so stay tuned!
 

elvor0

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Karoshi said:
TES MMO might surprise me, but too many MMOs have tried and failed to compete with WoW. Somehow I don't think this one will be an exception.
To be fair, it's not /directly/ trying to compete with WoW, they've done the smart thing and attempted to make the gameplay different. your concerns on the combat(which I've snipped) are perfectly sensible ones, but I think giving the game real combat along with the brand recognition may just be enough to allow them to coexist. Of course it's not going to be the bulldozer that WoW has, but at least they're trying something new-ish, or at least recently and in the mainstream spotlight.

Every company goes with the tired old MMO combat system, which is just boring after you've done it a million times, I may as well just play WoW if the game I try next plays just like it, but with me having to level my character to level X and build him up again from scratch.

Dandark said:
I would love to play this game. I have hopes for it and would look forward it if not for one thing that ruins everything. One problem that if solved would make be instantly play and likely enjoy this game, probably enough to buy stuff on it.

GET RID OF THE DAMN SUBSCRIPTION FEE!
Not actually been stated that they have one by the way.

However, given it's likely that it may end up with one, how exactly do you expect them to sustain those mega servers and provide a decent amount of content on a regular basis like MMOs should? Not only that, with the real time combat going on, they are going to need some DAMN powerful and expensive servers if they plan on doing the one server deal, otherwise it'll be impossible to play. Not that I'm sure how they'll deal with population management, unless they do the same that Guild Wars 1 did, (ie a lobby room) in which case it's as much as an MMO as CoD is.

Name me one f2p MMO that isn't just an utter shaft to the customer unless they sink a decent amount of money into it anyway. About the only exception is Guild Wars 2 here, as that's the only one that doesn't and /is/ a good game, or so I've heard, but there's a real strong sense that the game has a huge lack of end game content.

Just to point out, my writing style can sometimes come across as a bit aggressive, so don't think I'm being so :)
 

Blackdoom

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Yes it has great potential like every other game out there however it also has the potential to suck copious levels of dicks.

If the combat is like Skyrim it is going to be incredibly boring very quickly, I really wouldn't call what you do in the combat in Skyrim aiming, it is pretty much swing sword randomly in general direction or spam magic in general direction without much thought to it until everything around you is dead.

If you bring that type of combat to an MMO you are going to have a lot of issues because of lag.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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The one question I have about The Elder Scrolls Online:

What can it possibly offer that other MMOs haven't been offering for years? The talk about a mega server is just talk, perhaps it's be best to get excited about it WHEN WE SEE IT WORK PROPERLY IN ACTION.
 

Ranorak

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BloatedGuppy said:
And hell, WoW has a limited FTP model, and I'm not even 100% sure about EVE.
Just to clarify and expand,
Get enough in-game money (ISK) in EVE and you can use that to buy game time other people bought for RL cash.
So, yes, you can play for free in EVE.
 

Apointicus

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Blackdoom said:
Yes it has great potential like every other game out there however it also has the potential to suck copious levels of dicks.

If the combat is like Skyrim it is going to be incredibly boring very quickly, I really wouldn't call what you do in the combat in Skyrim aiming, it is pretty much swing sword randomly in general direction or spam magic in general direction without much thought to it until everything around you is dead.

If you bring that type of combat to an MMO you are going to have a lot of issues because of lag.
The Combat is not going to be totally Skyrim, but they'll definitely try to tape as much of the ES combat in this game as they can. According to Jesse Cox in his Alpha Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLp0ykvotEI) The combat is will probably be like a GW2/Skyrim Hybrid in terms of Melee (Ranged and Magic wasn't really talked about in the video)

The combat controls is probably going to consist of (as of Alpha Build) most/a bit of the standard Elder scrolls controls we know of along with MMO controls, so LMB Attack or a Power Attack by holding the button, RMB to block and possibly dodge and 5 ability Hotbars with another Hotbar for an "ultimate ability." This game will most likely use the standard ES resource system, which is a Health Bar, Magicka Bar and a Stamina Bar, so Melee attacking (i think) and sprinting (Yes, you can sprint) will decrease your stamina. Presumably Melee Abilities will use Stamina while Casters will use Magicka as their main source pool but I do not know. The devs are trying to make combat Elder Scrolls-like as much as possible and I think that, if they keep with that formula, it'll be fun and best of all, it will possibly work.


bartholen said:
The one question I have about The Elder Scrolls Online:

What can it possibly offer that other MMOs haven't been offering for years? The talk about a mega server is just talk, perhaps it's be best to get excited about it WHEN WE SEE IT WORK PROPERLY IN ACTION.
I'm not just excited because of the "Mega Server," they're many reasons as to why I am (The mega server to me is a convenience change if that makes sense) Though I agree to you saying that we should wait until a Beta Event comes. As for what can it offer? A different type of MMO. (Its probably going to be way different than WoW and possibly GW2)
 

Aeonknight

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Having a hard time being excited for this at all for a number of reasons.

-The whole "being able to do just about anything you want" allure of TES games is NOT going to be present in an MMO. It won't work.

-The game's playability going to come down to how well they balance combat, and if they can make it interesting... something they failed to do in their staples of the series.

-No user generated content, unless you want to stay primarily on private servers.

-Finally, it's Bethesda. Maintenance for days due to all the bugs they don't know how to fix.


Seriously, how does this game have potential when the MMO format of it is ripping out the elements of the franchise that people play these games for? call me skeptical, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
 

Karoshi

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elvor0 said:
Karoshi said:
TES MMO might surprise me, but too many MMOs have tried and failed to compete with WoW. Somehow I don't think this one will be an exception.
To be fair, it's not /directly/ trying to compete with WoW, they've done the smart thing and attempted to make the gameplay different. your concerns on the combat(which I've snipped) are perfectly sensible ones, but I think giving the game real combat along with the brand recognition may just be enough to allow them to coexist. Of course it's not going to be the bulldozer that WoW has, but at least they're trying something new-ish, or at least recently and in the mainstream spotlight.

Every company goes with the tired old MMO combat system, which is just boring after you've done it a million times, I may as well just play WoW if the game I try next plays just like it, but with me having to level my character to level X and build him up again from scratch.
Thing is most new MMOs are trying to be original. Aion had wings and flying, Rift had events, Swtor had personal storylines, Guild Wars 2 implemented most of those things at once. Aion and GW2 got movement centric combat which still feels a lot like WoW.

They try to be different and to avoid competing with WoW, yet it barely makes a difference. The bulldozer keeps rolling. Many of them are viable (Rift is going good with subscription, GW2 seems pretty happy and Swtor might be getting back in business), but there is no strong fanbase (yet). I tried them and each time it wasn't the right MMO. Many people feel the same way.

The cynic in me is saying, that TES combat will have cosmetic differences but play out the very same in the end. It's hard to revolutionize or at least break the common concept of MMO combat.
 

elvor0

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Karoshi said:
elvor0 said:
Karoshi said:
TES MMO might surprise me, but too many MMOs have tried and failed to compete with WoW. Somehow I don't think this one will be an exception.
To be fair, it's not /directly/ trying to compete with WoW, they've done the smart thing and attempted to make the gameplay different. your concerns on the combat(which I've snipped) are perfectly sensible ones, but I think giving the game real combat along with the brand recognition may just be enough to allow them to coexist. Of course it's not going to be the bulldozer that WoW has, but at least they're trying something new-ish, or at least recently and in the mainstream spotlight.

Every company goes with the tired old MMO combat system, which is just boring after you've done it a million times, I may as well just play WoW if the game I try next plays just like it, but with me having to level my character to level X and build him up again from scratch.
Thing is most new MMOs are trying to be original. Aion had wings and flying, Rift had events, Swtor had personal storylines, Guild Wars 2 implemented most of those things at once. Aion and GW2 got movement centric combat which still feels a lot like WoW.

They try to be different and to avoid competing with WoW, yet it barely makes a difference. The bulldozer keeps rolling. Many of them are viable (Rift is going good with subscription, GW2 seems pretty happy and Swtor might be getting back in business), but there is no strong fanbase (yet). I tried them and each time it wasn't the right MMO. Many people feel the same way.

The cynic in me is saying, that TES combat will have cosmetic differences but play out the very same in the end. It's hard to revolutionize or at least break the common concept of MMO combat.
True, true, and I'm going to approach it with a bit of caution, because the same thing happens to me everytime too, but I am hoping the combat from previous Elder Scrolls games being in there will give the game just enough edge to make it feel different enough, I suspect hotkey abilites will still be in there, but at least it's not going to be yer completely standard MMO combat. Hopefully I can get into the beta and make a better judgement from in there. I mean DC universe online was quite fun and that had real time combat, it's just all the combos gave you carpal tunnel syndrome if you played with a mouse.

Setting wise a lot of them are pretty original, it's just that gameplay wise it most of them have the problem of gameplay being almost exactly the same like you say, and there's no point in me quitting WoW to play WoW with what is essentially a lick of paint and a lot of the rooms removed or being constructed.
 

Jandau

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Friendly Lich said:
I am sure that you have all seen the advertisements for TESO so I'll jump right into my reasons. Key word here is potential.

1. Great lore and story writers: The people who write the lore, stories, and quests for the TES series are perhaps the best in the RPG genre. The Lore is deep and reads like an actual history book. The quests are always interesting or funny and the plots are usually really good.
Um, no? TES has a LOT of backstory, but for the most part it's not very good. In fact, Bethesda has a pretty bad track record when it comes to plots and writing. Sure, there are some good spots here and there, but I've never played Beth games for the story. Also, even if the writing happens to be good, it still won't mean much in an MMO.

2. Mega-server technology: If you aren't aware TESO will be on whats called a mega-server, its basically a super powerful server designed to hold EVERYONE. This means everyone is on one server. How will this effect gameplay? Imagine: no more screwing around trying to get with your friends on the same server, no more trying to move servers to find the right guilds etc. This also means REPUTATION COUNTS, you cant change servers or fade into anonymity you are stuck on that server and your actions will follow from day 1. Think about that.
So what? Separate servers aren't much of a hassle anyway. The areas of the game will still have to be instanced if any sort of decent population is to be maintained, or it'll devolve into an overcrowded lag-fest. Also, what will be lost are the individual server communities - they'll all be blended together in one big mushy mess.

3. Organic/"manual" Combat: YOU will have to aim your sword blows and spells just like in Skyrim. No more computer to auto target enemy players with a press of the tab button like in so many other MMOs. This will take more skill and will make combat more realistic and exciting.
Wow, lag is going to a ***** then...
 

Joccaren

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Friendly Lich said:
1. Great lore and story writers: The people who write the lore, stories, and quests for the TES series are perhaps the best in the RPG genre. The Lore is deep and reads like an actual history book. The quests are always interesting or funny and the plots are usually really good.
I'm with most other people here actually, no. TES writers have decent lore set up, but the actual writing is amateur. Part of it comes from the fact that none of the quests intermingle at all, and part of it comes from the fact that its intended for you to just f*** off in the middle of a quest chain and do something else but still not lose your place in that quest chain. Maybe they can write well, but they haven't demonstrated it yet. There is a difference between having good lore and writing a good story with that lore. I'll gie them the former, but they are nowhere near the best writers in the RPG genre. I'd have to place them as some of the worst in the modern day and age; Sure, many others aren't as inventive, but they're writing is better polished and their stories flow better, plus the characters others write are often more realistic too.

2. Mega-server technology: If you aren't aware TESO will be on whats called a mega-server, its basically a super powerful server designed to hold EVERYONE. This means everyone is on one server. How will this effect gameplay? Imagine: no more screwing around trying to get with your friends on the same server, no more trying to move servers to find the right guilds etc. This also means REPUTATION COUNTS, you cant change servers or fade into anonymity you are stuck on that server and your actions will follow from day 1. Think about that.
This is something IMO that works against it. Where is this server going to be based?
America?
Great, the rest of the world gets stuck with terrible ping now and lots of lag. Since they have only one server, they'll slowly lose customers who get sick of dying from unavoidable lag caused by connecting to a server halfway around the world. A single mega server per region could work, but that's hardly "Everyone" in one area, and hardly anything entirely new either. There's also a fair reason for multiple servers in most MMOs: PvP servers, RP servers and normal playing servers exist to cater to different types of player. What is this mega-server going to be? Whichever it chooses its cutting out 2 parts of its audience.

3. Organic/"manual" Combat: YOU will have to aim your sword blows and spells just like in Skyrim. No more computer to auto target enemy players with a press of the tab button like in so many other MMOs. This will take more skill and will make combat more realistic and exciting.
I'd hardly call it more realistic. Its more button mash sure, but that's not realistic. That's just more action orientated.
And if they follow Skyrim's design for combat they'll be missing out on the MMO audience. Skyrim's combat requires little skill, little thought, and really is just a walk up and spam button thing. I know people will say "Play on Hardcore", but;
1. That mostly just prolongues the battle, not makes it harder.
2. Do you really think TESO will be stuck on the hardest difficulty? Its more likely to be on "Normal", or Adept as the naming may be in Skyrim. It'll be at the default difficulty level so that those who can't play the harder ones can play, and if it follows Skyrim's combat with this... Worst combat system one could ask for.

I may right another post about some things that could be the downfall of TESO later
Really, the potential and downfall of most games are the same thing. They are features that appeal to some, but don't appeal to others. Largely its just an issue of how big the audience made up of the fans of those features is. If its not big enough, it'll fall, if it is it'll be fine.

Personally, I'm cynical towards TESO. None of the mainstay features of it are anything I'd call Bethesda good at, which leaves me rather worried as to how its going to turn out. I'd have a bit more faith if Beth had made a good combat system, or a game without a load of bugs, or storylines that were half decently executed, but I've yet to see them. Granted haven't played many Beth games, but from what I have they're decidedly average in all aspects. Will be interesting to see how everything turns out though.
 

Hagi

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BloatedGuppy said:
I'm not even 100% sure about EVE.
EVE is technically 100% sub-based. However there is an option to buy your subscription with in-game money from other players through PLEX (in-game item which adds 30 days of game-time). But seeing as each PLEX has to be purchased with real money and actually costs more than a regular subscription CCP is still getting subscription money for every single player.

It works for EVE since it's about the only MMO where you're capable of constantly losing vast amounts of in-game money. Every time you die you have to buy whatever ship you were flying again. So there's a market for people who'd rather spend 1 hour working in real life than 10 hours in-game in order to get enough money to fly around without worrying in-game cash. At the same time there's plenty of people who don't mind spending an additional 10 or so hours each month grinding in order to play for free.

OT: I'll wait for the time the NDA gets lifted, so that's quite some ways off. Then I'll start looking up videos and information and see what's what. Not much use getting excited and wasting time on it now, there's plenty of other good stuff that's already been released.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Apointicus said:
The combat controls is probably going to consist of (as of Alpha Build) most/a bit of the standard Elder scrolls controls we know of along with MMO controls, so LMB Attack or a Power Attack by holding the button, RMB to block and possibly dodge and 5 ability Hotbars with another Hotbar for an "ultimate ability." This game will most likely use the standard ES resource system, which is a Health Bar, Magicka Bar and a Stamina Bar, so Melee attacking (i think) and sprinting (Yes, you can sprint) will decrease your stamina. Presumably Melee Abilities will use Stamina while Casters will use Magicka as their main source pool but I do not know. The devs are trying to make combat Elder Scrolls-like as much as possible and I think that, if they keep with that formula, it'll be fun and best of all, it will possibly work.


bartholen said:
The one question I have about The Elder Scrolls Online:

What can it possibly offer that other MMOs haven't been offering for years? The talk about a mega server is just talk, perhaps it's be best to get excited about it WHEN WE SEE IT WORK PROPERLY IN ACTION.
I'm not just excited because of the "Mega Server," they're many reasons as to why I am (The mega server to me is a convenience change if that makes sense) Though I agree to you saying that we should wait until a Beta Event comes. As for what can it offer? A different type of MMO. (Its probably going to be way different than WoW and possibly GW2)
Er--- what? So you're actually looking forward to more of that tedious mash buttons->chug health potions->rinse and repeat -combat? Well, to each their own, but I think most people will agree that combat in the TES games has always been at best alright, and is nothing to strive forward to. If anything, they should try to revamp the combat system and move it away from the previous iterations while keeping the few innovations they've had over the years (like dual wielding in Skyrim).

And in what way is it going to be way different from WoW or GW? No good/evil factions? No classes (well, that would actually be expected)? No guilds? Something else in their place?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Jim_Callahan said:
Starting as FTP isn't a failure, just means you're monetizing differently and your game may still be quite good.

Starting subscription and then _moving_ to FTP means that, and I'll type this slowly so you can follow the basic, simple logic that's immediately obvious to everyone else:
Ah yes, the ever popular "appeal to popularity", made doubly hilarious when "popularity" isn't even established, just assumed. You're at least somewhat correct, though. On a website with a heavy console user population, where MMOs aren't particularly popular and a lot of people have a lot of crazy misconceptions. And this is indeed one of those misconceptions.

Let's take a look at the "basic, simple logic".

Jim_Callahan said:
1. You thought people would want to pay a membership fee to play your game, because it's content of good quality worth paying for.
Or because $14 a month was, at one time, industry standard, so you were attempting to capitalize on the industry standard. Early in the life cycle of MMOs it was quite possible to not only build a substantial player base, but actually grow it over time. Competition was limited, and the first few hit MMOs saw rapidly expanding audiences.

Jim_Callahan said:
2. You're scrambling to monetize because people aren't willing to pay a membership fee and you need to recover costs.
I'm certain this is true in some cases, particularly for games that failed to sell enough up front to cover their development costs...either because the development cost was too high given the size and nature of the market (TOR) or because the game wasn't very good and failed to sell at launch (TSW). In others, such as the aforementioned DDO Online and LOTRO, the game switched to a FTP model and dramatically increased both paying subscribers AND revenue. For an inferior, desperation-based business model, that was quite extraordinary, wouldn't you say?

Jim_Callahan said:
3. If A implies B, then !B implies !A. A = "the game is of good quality" and B = "people are willing to subscribe to your game"

Ergo, if people aren't willing to pay for your game, you probably made a not-good-quality game.
But people did pay for the game, in a lot of cases. What often happens is people are not willing to continue paying for the game after 1-3 months. Which often amounts to hundreds of hours of game play. If the year is 2000 and you're bored of Everquest, you have maybe one or two other options...which you might have already played, or whose feature set does not appeal. If the year is 2012, you have dozens and dozens of options, most of which allow you to jump in and start playing for free, and even the sub-genres have multiple competing games. Yet the market didn't continue to grow exponentially the way it did briefly after WoW's release, it plateaued. More and more games crammed into an increasingly competitive space, each cannibalizing off the other...borrowing features and play style, looking to provide similar but oh-so-slightly different experiences to lure people off when their billing cycle ended. Now, a large number of people play an MMO very much the same way they play a single player game...they exhaust the content on hand, then they go play something else. MMOs tend to be a demanding, time consuming hobby in and of themselves, there's seldom time for more than one. Intelligent companies saw the writing on the wall and started shifting to business models that weren't dependent on a large body of fee paying incumbents.

Very few games were straight up victimized by poor public/critical reception. Even stumble-bums like TSW had a feverishly loyal core fanbase that was more than sufficient to keep the game cash positive as a sub game, if not a robust hit.

Frankly ANY game that releases into today's market without at least an optional FTP model or an EXTREMELY generous trial is setting itself up for a rough ride. Way, way, way too much competition for players.

Jim_Callahan said:
4. The most likely cause of a game going from Pay to FTP is that it wasn't a particularly good game.

i.e. the transition to FTP is a completely _valid_ indication of failure.
It is if you have an extremely limited understanding of the genre, the market, why games do well or don't, etc, etc. A similar line of reasoning might look like this:

1. You thought people would want to eat at your restaurant and enjoy your delicious food.
2. You're scrambling to change your business model...menu or prices...because you're not getting the amount of customers expected.
3. If A implies B, then !B implies !A. A = "The food is of good quality" and B = "People are willing to eat the food"
4. The most likely cause of a restaurant changing the business model is bad quality food. Ta-da! Logic! Derp.

Of course, that's "logic" only if you don't comprehend that restaurants run into problems for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with food quality, and change up sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with "Well, we failed. Might as well give the food away for free now."

Let's try a different analogy. You are opening a new restaurant. Every other restaurant on the street except one old one with a loyal cadre of customers who have been eating there forever gives the food away for free, and makes the money back by charging extra for drinks. You, a completely new restaurant, attempt to open up and charge for food.

1. Is that an intelligent move to take for a new restaurant owner, given the location and state of the competition?
2. If the restaurant failed to attract a large number of customers, would you assume it was because the food was bad?
3. Would you then go on a restaurant forum and conclude that the food was bad because A naturally follows B, and state imperiously that this fact is "immediately obvious to everyone"?

I rather suspect that you would not.

Or let's try this. Which is the more LOGICAL statement.

1. Games that change from subscription model to a FTP model do so for a variety of reasons. Changing market, aggressive competition, opportunity for increased revenue, etc.
2. Games that change from subscription model to a FTP model do so for a single reason, because the game was bad. A = B! Logic!