Why I think that "A Song of Ice and Fire" is poorly written. *Warning, spoilers likely*

[Condiments]

That's not that indicative. What does Robb do with his spare time? What's Robb's hobby? What's His worst fear? Did he have any childhood sweethearts? Martin switches characters so often(at least I assume this is the reason) that even the main character's are left almost completely unknown elements. Kahlan hates cheeze because when she was a kid and got sick, and they fed her cheeze constantly and now she can't stand it. And she used to hang out in the kitchens and with the marble-workers who repaired the castle when she was a child. Richard passed messages back and forth with his father using a vase because George Cypher was always traveling. Richard used to stick-dual with his brother, who was bigger and stronger, and would make Richard give a "loser's salute." Richard's brother sold one of the artifacts that their father found by lying and then the father never let him near another artifact again. What similar small details do we know about the main characters of Ice and Fire? I can't think of any.

The problem is that even though you're exposed to various parts of either of these characters histories, they're still very second dimensional. I've only read the first book of the Sword of Truth series, but its characters weren't it strong points. Richard and Kahlan are the self sacrificing heroes set on their quest by the ambiguously powerful mentor who at the same time is incapable of influencing the plot in any way. All their actions only reinforce their "self-sacrificing" personality, without adding really any further layers. Richard continuously charges forth on his insane quest despite being reminded all the time how insane it is. Kahlan whines about how she should be the one sacrificing herself blah blah. I could go on a long time about how flawed/cliche the book is, but its not TERRIBLE.

Having deeply flawed "grey" characters, multiple perspectives, and foreshadowing aren't "bad" things. Its just nothing something you prefer.

 

[Slycne]

That's not what I meant by acting irrationally. What I meant by acting irrationally is how a character will act against his normal motives for no apparent reason. A person will always act according to their situation, the world around them may not fully understand that situation, but I'm talking abou when POV characters act in a way that is counter to how they normally act, and no reason is given. They don't even have any kind of internal battle between their opposing motivations, they just act. A good example that comes to mind is when Ned doesn't tell Robbert that "his" children weren't his children, in order to let him have peace before death. This is a dishonorable act, born of compassion. But he never compromises his honor. If he was prone to forgoing honor for compassion, he would have never tried to support Stannis, who he knew would be brutal and strict and even a little cruel. He would have never forced Catelyn to see Jon being treated like a true-born son either. And he just did it. It was His POV, but we don't see any internal conflict about it. If his love and compassion for his friend was that strong, he should have had one hell of internal battle to convince himself to compromise his honor, especially considering he intended to tell him just 5 minutes before choosing not to.[/spoiler] That is just one of many examples.

But he does have a huge conflict of honor in that scene! When his dying friend asks him to write out his last will and testament. Ned writes in that the throne should go to "rightful heir" instead of Robert's last words of passing to Joffery. If Neds compassion had won out he would have left Joffery's name there and returned to Winterfel to his family, but he choose to act in what he felt was the most honorable manner.

Also something to consider is ASOIF's view of honor is not of tarted up justice and doing the right thing all the time. Jaime is called the kingslayer and is all but considered the least honorable person in the series, despite doing what many might think is an "honorable" or just act. Ned is honorable because he's unyielding in that regard and tries to keep his promises. The right thing to do would be to tell everyone about Jon, but he repeatedly lies or stretches the truth in order to hide something. I won't reveal anything, but there's some pretty hard speculation as to what that is.

 

[The Madman]

I don't find George R.R. Martin a bad author by any means, in fact I think he's fantastic. In terms of characterization and motivation he does a great job of creating sympathetic characters who's motivations can be easily understood with as few words as necessary. I actually really like one of his older books named Fevre Dream which is about Vampires and Steamboats, what an amazing combination!

Problem I have with the Ice and Fire is that it's just so damned depressing. It is, in all honesty, the only series of books I have ever stopped read mid-way through because I just didn't want to go on (And I've read Pet Cemetery, Lovecraft, Clive Barker, and just generally like horror). Martin has this skill at creating labyrinth plots and solid characters and then he uses those skills to build up and then torture those characters I'd come to like till death.

I realize it's supposed to be all gritty and grim and whatnot but damn, it's too much. There *are* good things that happen in real life. Sometimes good people really do get happy endings. But with Ice and Fire by the third book which I never could finish, I was literally wincing whenever anything remotely good happened to a character because by this point I knew it just meant something terrible was about to unfold.

That's why I like Scott Lynch, who has a similar style and comparable skill, can be just as 'gritty and dark' at times and indeed whos books contain several martin-esq twists of utter brutality and horror... but still there's hope.

I don't get that with Ice and Fire. Maybe that new book which came out changes that, maybe the end of 'A Feast for Crows' is actually a semi-sorta-maybe-kinda-positive one. I don't know and probably never will simply because it's such a miserable journey getting there I doubt I've the energy to re-read those books.

Shame.

 

[4173]

His father refused to give him his inheritance, and has openly admitting to wishing he was dead. Cersei hates him, treats him like an animal, and not even a very useful one, despite the fact that she has given birth to 3 incestuous bastards. I really don't see blood carrying loyalty that far. If my family treated me like that, I would most definitely not support them, in fact I would leverage everything in my power to see them fall. Especially since he seems to care about the innocent, and House Lannister tramples the innocent like blades of grass in a stampede.

You're forgetting about Jaime, who all other Lannisters considered has a generally loving and normal relationship with his brother Tryion. You also get the sense that Tryion enjoys being a Lannister. He likes what the infamy and wealth affords him. Tryion's relationship with his family develops in some interesting ways as you keep going.

Also you repeatedly bring up character behaving irrationally, but baring comedic or plot hole sized levels, people don't actually behave rationally all the time. Ned Stark could have rationally helped make Westeros a better kingdom for everyone and likely saved his own hide in the process, but instead he decided to stick to his honor. From the readers perspective, yes he's behaving irrationally, but to the character he doesn't believe he is.

I'm not forgetting Jaime. I understand why Tyrion likes his brother, I don't know why he supports house Lannister. As a member of the kingsguard, Jaime doesn't really gain from the success of House Lannister, why doesn't Tyrion abandon house Lannister to their well-earned fate and just help and support Jaime? There is absolutely no gain for him or Jaime when House Lannister gains more power. The wealth thing is plausable, but why doesn't he ever consider the possibilities. How come he never once considered turning against his house in exchange for Jaime's safety and continued position on the kingsguard? really, he never had one quiet fantasy about throwing his abusive family to the lions? Not once? There is a motivation, or the author would have never considered having him do it, but the readers were never made aware of it, despite how much time the reader spends in Tyrion's head. I'm pretty sure characters even ask him why he does it, and he doesn't even think of a satisfactory answer.

I consider that bad characterization. It's ignoring the greatest advantage books have over other media, the ability to be completely and fully 100% in the head of the main character.

He helps House Lannister because of fondness for the children and Jamie (and his uncle for that matter), but also to rub his continued existence in the face of his father and sister. If he abandons House Lannister completely, he is just another dwarf and his father wins. He also has the pipe dream that if he does well enough, Tywin will give him Casterly Rock. Finally, he LIKES living the life of the rich and powerful: eating fine foods, drinking good wine, sleeping on a nice bed with a pretty whore. Supporting the Lannisters is the best way to access that life. Without the name (and the family gold), he is just another ugly, misshapen dwarf.


As for Ned, it's almost as if we read different books. He is constantly having internal battles about his honor, versus family or compassion, or getting the job done.

 

[Dejanus]

I don't find George R.R. Martin a bad author by any means, in fact I think he's fantastic. In terms of characterization and motivation he does a great job of creating sympathetic characters who's motivations can be easily understood with as few words as necessary. I actually really like one of his older books named Fevre Dream which is about Vampires and Steamboats, what an amazing combination!

Problem I have with the Ice and Fire is that it's just so damned depressing. It is, in all honesty, the only series of books I have ever stopped read mid-way through because I just didn't want to go on (And I've read Pet Cemetery, Lovecraft, Clive Barker, and just generally like horror). Martin has this skill at creating labyrinth plots and solid characters and then he uses those skills to build up and then torture those characters I'd come to like till death.

I realize it's supposed to be all gritty and grim and whatnot but damn, it's too much. There *are* good things that happen in real life. Sometimes good people really do get happy endings. But with Ice and Fire by the third book which I never could finish, I was literally wincing whenever anything remotely good happened to a character because by this point I knew it just meant something terrible was about to unfold.

That's why I like Scott Lynch, who has a similar style and comparable skill, can be just as 'gritty and dark' at times and indeed whos books contain several martin-esq twists of utter brutality and horror... but still there's hope.

I don't get that with Ice and Fire. Maybe that new book which came out changes that, maybe the end of 'A Feast for Crows' is actually a semi-sorta-maybe-kinda-positive one. I don't know and probably never will simply because it's such a miserable journey getting there I doubt I've the energy to re-read those books.

Shame.

It is indeed, I feel you are missing out. At the same time, I see exactly where you are coming from. The series is dark, depressing, and brutally so. I'm of the belief, however, that like any good story, it's to a purpose.

These books have shattered me on a few occasions, but I continue on. I've never stopped reading a book because it hurt, and I feel richer for having read ASOIAF.

 

[The Madman]

It is indeed, I feel you are missing out. At the same time, I see exactly where you are coming from. The series is dark, depressing, and brutally so. I'm of the belief, however, that like any good story, it's to a purpose.

These books have shattered me on a few occasions, but I continue on. I've never stopped reading a book because it hurt, and I feel richer for having read ASOIAF.

Really? I only felt like I was getting punched repeatedly in the soul with a few extra kicks delivered to my already tender sense of optimism once I was down.

I think I got to the part where the little girl was killing people and eating maggots before finally I couldn't take anymore. Just... too much. Too much which had been going on too long. There's a difference between making a story grim and just outright sadism, and Ice & Fire crossed into sadism long ago. Maybe around the point where a protagonist is betrayed and murdered then had the head of his dead dog sewn to his decapitated neck for good measure. Maybe around when the mother goes insane with despair, is herself murdered, then returns from the dead as a tormented spirit of unholy revenge or somesuch. Or maybe even early on when the kids watch their father executed before their eyes. Hell, let's go to the very start where a kid is pushed out a window and left crippled.

Indeed I can't think of a single truly good thing that happens to any character in the entire series which isn't immediately followed by something utterly horrific befalling them. There has to be some drive to keep me reading, some conflict to be resolved, some growth to be had. But all I see in Ice & Fire is a spiralling pit of despair where even the 'villains' are miserable and a character dying off is almost a merciful fate.

And when I'm hoping my favourite characters die so they're spared the torture of another book or twos torment, well, that's my limit.

 

[Dejanus]

It is indeed, I feel you are missing out. At the same time, I see exactly where you are coming from. The series is dark, depressing, and brutally so. I'm of the belief, however, that like any good story, it's to a purpose.

These books have shattered me on a few occasions, but I continue on. I've never stopped reading a book because it hurt, and I feel richer for having read ASOIAF.

Really? I only felt like I was getting punched repeatedly in the soul with a few extra kicks delivered to my already tender sense of optimism once I was down.

I think I got to the part where the little girl was killing people and eating maggots before finally I couldn't take anymore. Just... too much. Too much which had been going on too long. There's a difference between making a story grim and just outright sadism, and Ice & Fire crossed into sadism long ago. Maybe around the point where a protagonist is betrayed and murdered then had the head of his dead dog sewn to his decapitated neck for good measure. Maybe around when the mother goes insane with despair, is herself murdered, then returns from the dead as a tormented spirit of unholy revenge or somesuch. Or maybe even early on when the kids watch their father executed before their eyes. Hell, let's go to the very start where a kid is pushed out a window and left crippled.

Indeed I can't think of a single truly good thing that happens to any character in the entire series which isn't immediately followed by something utterly horrific befalling them. There has to be some drive to keep me reading, some conflict to be resolved, some growth to be had. But all I see in Ice & Fire is a spiralling pit of despair where even the 'villains' are miserable and a character dying off is almost a merciful fate.

And when I'm hoping my favourite characters die so they're spared the torture of another book or twos torment, well, that's my limit.

Good God man, that's the most extreme reaction I've ever heard. I mean, your choice, but damn.

You're starting to make me feel bad for liking it now, I didn't know that was possible. I don't think GRRM is a sadist, not really. Horrible things happen, but so do good ones, justice sometimes is served, even if it's four books late. That's what keeps me reading, I want to see justice served, I want to see how it ends, if the Starks survive, if the Dragons return, if the Winter consumes all. I can't leave at the nadir, not when I might yet see the zenith.

But, as you said, your limit may differ from mine.

 

[Princess Rose]

Wow, I really expected this thread to get a lot of traffic. Um, I've never seen a thread fail this hard, not even one response. I might not try posting another thread for a couple of months.

Never heard of the book.

Until you mentioned "Sword of Truth" I didn't even know what author/series you were talking about.

Never read the series, but from what I've heard it spends some time wanking the "abstinence porn" angle before wandering off.

 

[Dejanus]

Wow, I really expected this thread to get a lot of traffic. Um, I've never seen a thread fail this hard, not even one response. I might not try posting another thread for a couple of months.

Never heard of the book.

Until you mentioned "Sword of Truth" I didn't even know what author/series you were talking about.

Never read the series, but from what I've heard it spends some time wanking the "abstinence porn" angle before wandering off.

I had a more eloquent response prepared, but brevity is wit.

" LOL WUT?"

 

[The Madman]

Good God man, that's the most extreme reaction I've ever heard. I mean, your choice, but damn.

You're starting to make me feel bad for liking it now, I didn't know that was possible. I don't think GRRM is a sadist, not really. Horrible things happen, but so do good ones, justice sometimes is served, even if it's four books late. That's what keeps me reading, I want to see justice served, I want to see how it ends, if the Starks survive, if the Dragons return, if the Winter consumes all. I can't leave at the nadir, not when I might yet see the zenith.

But, as you said, your limit may differ from mine.

What good things happen? It's not a rhetorical question either as I can't recall a single solid good thing which happened to, well, anyone. Admittedly as pointed out earlier I never finished the third book and obviously haven't read the fourth, but I can't think of a single thing.

The closest I can think of was the younger Stark at the wall of Ice. I recall he fell in love with a barbarian woman or somesuch and despite her eventual death it at least served to offer some character growth for the character in question. And when that of all things is the highest point I can remember from all of three books, well, that's depressing. And really how many Starks are even left? I remember the maggot eating turning-evil girl, the useless princessy girl, the young man I mention above, and the crippled kid as the only ones still surviving by the third book and just how long they might last I don't know.

But despite all that I'm not by any stretch saying you shouldn't enjoy the series. I think GRRM is a solid author and the series has merit. I can see perfectly fine why so many love it; it's a well written dark fantasy epic like few before.

Just too damned depressing for me personally, who knows why, I doubt anyone who really knows me would ever describe me as a shinning image of gleeful cheeriness or optimism. Quite the opposite I suspect.

 

[Sandernista]

Good God man, that's the most extreme reaction I've ever heard. I mean, your choice, but damn.

You're starting to make me feel bad for liking it now, I didn't know that was possible. I don't think GRRM is a sadist, not really. Horrible things happen, but so do good ones, justice sometimes is served, even if it's four books late. That's what keeps me reading, I want to see justice served, I want to see how it ends, if the Starks survive, if the Dragons return, if the Winter consumes all. I can't leave at the nadir, not when I might yet see the zenith.

But, as you said, your limit may differ from mine.

Why would you want the dragons to return?!

Spoiler: Don"t open if you aren't at least halfway through dance

You've seen how well Dany handles her small kingdom, and we've been given no indication that Aegon will be any better. I'm personally hopeful Bran will return as king of the north. OH GOD HE DIES DOESNT HE?! (I'm only about 600-ish pages into Dance

 

[Princess Rose]

I had a more eloquent response prepared, but brevity is wit.

" LOL WUT?"

Gonna have to be more specific. I've only heard about this series by word of mouth, so I may have details wrong (or at least exaggerated due to unhappy readers telling me about it).

 

[Lyri]

cut

PoV

I think it's the best part of the book honestly, I know they keep changing every chapter but honestly reading about one person for a while is too much.
I'd hate a two chapter length Sansa section, it would drive me bat shit. The PoV swapping allows you to get to the good and the bad and learn all about the characters from another angle other than what you already know.
Your friend was right about Jaime Lannister becoming an interesting character, he's actually one of my favourites too.

Activity
I think given the setting of the book it's pretty decent, I mean not many books go out of their way like GoT does to tell you about how one person was raped by several people, how the king would happily take your head off and have your wife.
It's why I think thought is such a key part of this book, you can't just have one character say something that another would say and die for. It keeps continuity going, there's a beauty in the politics of it.
I love this book for that reason.

Personalities

Spoiler

Tyrion doesn't act like a Lannister because he is a different person all together, they make him that way because he can't do anything else. He's a small wretch of a man by all accounts and that's all he's ever been told.
He's not Jaime, he's not Cersei and he's not Tywin. He gets nothing in the grand scheme of things that's why he is as he is. They want to view him as not a Lannister but he's actually the most Lannister of them all.

 

[GrimTuesday]

I had a more eloquent response prepared, but brevity is wit.

" LOL WUT?"

Gonna have to be more specific. I've only heard about this series by word of mouth, so I may have details wrong (or at least exaggerated due to unhappy readers telling me about it).

Sword of Truth and A Song of Ice and Fire are two different series.

Excuse me if I don't take the OP seriously considering he is the guy who got all pissed because I said Sword of Truth was boring trash. I feel that if you think that Goodkind and his yeard are quality fantasy and that GRRM is a bad writer/storyteller, you obviously have some sort of brain defect. The books are about political intrigue and the evolution of characters when they're put in really shitty situations.

 

[Princess Rose]

Sword of Truth and A Song of Ice and Fire are two different series.

Excuse me if I don't take the OP seriously considering he is the guy who got all pissed because I said Sword of Truth was boring trash. I feel that if you think that Goodkind and his yeard are quality fantasy and that GRRM is a bad writer/storyteller, you obviously have some sort of brain defect. The books are about political intrigue and the evolution of characters when they're put in really shitty situations.

Oh. Huh. Okay, I either misread the OP, or he misspoke.

I've been told bad things about the Sword of Truth series.

I've never heard of the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. I wouldn't have commented in this thread, except that I thought the OP said it was part of the Sword of Truth series.

So never mind. ^^;; Just pretend I didn't say anything.

 

[Aurgelmir]

Oh SNIP

I can agree to a certain extend to what you are getting at, but you have just read the first 2 books. I have read almost all 5 of them

That said, I disagree that the characters are shallow, I would rather say they are human. In real life there are no good or bad guys, there are just guys.
The Lanisters are a good example of this, they have their own agenda. Tyrion is not a bad guy at all in my mind, he is an outsider.

But to quote a character in book 3 "You know nothing, Jon Snow" Because this series changes fast, and what you thought you'd knew is not always what will happen.

Sure you can figure out a lot of what is going to happen, if you are paying attention, but to me that signals a good book.

Also the points of view I like, it helps broaden the story.

 

[Hoplon]

Mostly I agree with the OP, though not entirely for the same reasons.

The Story is diffused to a fine mist by all the constant changes of characters and points of view, the characters a stupid beyond all measure but I am meant to believe any of these people won battles? If you can't see obvious misdirection you would get the shit kick out of you in a war.

There is no pace and the jarring changes in the passage of time mean I never know how much time has passed or how long things have taken. The young children barely seem to age yet years have passed.

I don't resent anyone else Liking them, but telling me they are good is annoying.

 

[Sevre]

1) Multiple Points of view is cheap and weak. It delays the resolution of the events that create drama in order to make that drama last longer. In exchange, it limits your conection to the main character, and makes it more difficult to characterize and explore the character, because they have less POV time. Now, if you use a small number of POV, the good outweighs the bad. it allows you to explore multiple characters from multiple angles, giving a better understanding, just like you said, assuming that you don't have so many POVs that you no longer have the page time necessary to give the character depth, and that you don't spend too many pages rehashing the very end of the last section where that character was POV. I love multiple POV, so long as it's within reason. Ice and Fire has well over 20 POV characters and changes POV every single chapter. That makes the story hard to follow and also continually breaks your immersion in the story and your attachment to the character, every single chapter.

Hah, oh dear you would hate Thomas Pynchon if you found something like Game of Thrones difficult to follow. It's quite an easy read and well structured, not to mention he pulls it off brilliantly. You say it breaks immersion, but it increases immersion in the world because you understand events from every character's perspective. The only time I found myself groaning was when I opened up a Bran chapter, and that was just because his first few chapters were dull.

 

[Dejanus]

Good God man, that's the most extreme reaction I've ever heard. I mean, your choice, but damn.

You're starting to make me feel bad for liking it now, I didn't know that was possible. I don't think GRRM is a sadist, not really. Horrible things happen, but so do good ones, justice sometimes is served, even if it's four books late. That's what keeps me reading, I want to see justice served, I want to see how it ends, if the Starks survive, if the Dragons return, if the Winter consumes all. I can't leave at the nadir, not when I might yet see the zenith.

But, as you said, your limit may differ from mine.

What good things happen? It's not a rhetorical question either as I can't recall a single solid good thing which happened to, well, anyone. Admittedly as pointed out earlier I never finished the third book and obviously haven't read the fourth, but I can't think of a single thing.

The closest I can think of was the younger Stark at the wall of Ice. I recall he fell in love with a barbarian woman or somesuch and despite her eventual death it at least served to offer some character growth for the character in question. And when that of all things is the highest point I can remember from all of three books, well, that's depressing. And really how many Starks are even left? I remember the maggot eating turning-evil girl, the useless princessy girl, the young man I mention above, and the crippled kid as the only ones still surviving by the third book and just how long they might last I don't know.

But despite all that I'm not by any stretch saying you shouldn't enjoy the series. I think GRRM is a solid author and the series has merit. I can see perfectly fine why so many love it; it's a well written dark fantasy epic like few before.

Just too damned depressing for me personally, who knows why, I doubt anyone who really knows me would ever describe me as a shinning image of gleeful cheeriness or optimism. Quite the opposite I suspect.

If you were to reach A Dance with Dragons, I can think of several events that would please you. Plenty that wouldn't, but the good is there. And it's not like nothing good ever happens, Robb had victories, Jon is growing into a capable leader, Arya, while losing her identity, is becoming kind of a badass. Sansa undergoes a LOT of growth in the fourth book, which you have not yet read.

Dany is becoming a kickass warrior queen, despite her mistakes.

Question: Did you stop reading after that certain part at the Twins?