Why I think that "A Song of Ice and Fire" is poorly written. *Warning, spoilers likely*

[4173]

I think the only one of those that was supposed to be a surprise was

Spoiler

Eddard's execution by Joffery's order

. Perhaps

Spoiler

how quickly Khal Drogo dies. 2/3 of the way through the first book is pretty sudden

This isn't a gotcha question, I'm just curious. Did you reach the popular fan theory on Jon's parentage?

(potential spoiler for books 6+, though currently just fan theory)

Spoiler

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, Eddard promised to keep him safe.

 

[Giest4life]

1) He has too many POV characters, not saying there should be one, I'm saying that there shouldn't be 31(from post above).
2) LOL WUT(in response to this being hallmark of High Fantasy)
3) Not saying that characters shouldn't change radically, just saying that this shouldn't happen without warning, and that the reader shouldn't be mislead about so many of the important characters.
4) LOL WUT
5) LOL WUT!
6) Not saying that there shouldn't be foreshadowing, I'm saying that there should be hints, not a map of what's going to happen next.(That's kinda what it felt like to me. This book is so obvious to me that there really isn't any mystery)

I raise you this [http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100426121021/reddeadredemption/images/f/fc/FACEPALM.png] to your "LOL WUT".

 

[spartan231490]

Also, I'm going to amend my previous statment and say that I have seen well over 30 POV characters in the first two books, maybe a good deal more than that.

Okay, that's a damn lie.

Including the odd one-off throwaway characters, which I normally would not, there are exactly twelve. In the interest of bolstering your flagging claim, it seems you have just started making things up.

I haven't counted, so it's probably not over 30, although it feels like it. I seriously doubt that it's under 20, and I know it's over 12. I can think of at least 13 off the top of my head.

Spoiler

Eddard, Catelyn, Jon, Robb, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon, Sam Tarley, Daenerys, Jaime, Tyrion, and Davos.

That's 13, right off the top of my head. Maybe you shouldn't make things up.

There was never a chapter with Rickon or Robb as the main char. And though I don't recall everything from the fourth book I am pretty sure there was never a chapter with Jaime as the main char either.

Ed, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Daenerys, Theon, Catelyn, Davos and Bran. Add the two prologuechapters. This is less than 13. So I suggest that you stop making things up.

I know for a fact that there are several chapters with Jaime as the main Character in book 3. I thought that Rob and Rickon had chapters, but so be it. that's still 11 just off the top of my head. I wasn't even counting the prologue.

Spoiler

I can also remember a chapter with a brother of the night watch planning an escape immediately before 3 horns sounded signalling an attack of "the others."

so make it 12.
And the exact number of POV characters doesn't really matter anyway, so if I have the wrong number I apologize, I was guessing. My point is unaffected.

Edit: Not the best source but a quick google led to wiki: http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/POV_character
14 main POV characters
10 minor POV characters
7 prologue/epilogue characters
That's 31, but go with 24. significantly more than 12

But you said in the first two books, which was where my number, which is exactly correct, came from. Feast and Dance add loads more, but we were not even discussing those yet. You said first two, and in those, there are exactly 13, not the 'at least 30' you said.

You said 12 before, now you say 13. and reagardless, as I said, I apologize for getting the number wrong, I was guessing, and the exact number is irrelevant anyway. I believe there are way too many for the story. Admittedly, if it is only 12 or 13, it may not actually be the number of POV characters, just that he is switching POV characters too often, which is a serious problem either way. I think the story could be told more effectively only using 8 or maybe 9.

I mistyped that, not that it matters.

You have a right to that opinion, but its not objectively a mistake, its simply not to your particular taste as a reader. That doesn't make you an idiot but it sure as hell doesn't make the series poorly written. You don't see what millions of others see in it, fine, but calling it poorly written is nothing short of an insult.

In short, if you don't like it, stop reading. We've made our case, well supported and with millions behind it. You've made yours, sort of, though it still isn't very clear or well presented in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree before someone else smells that you actually like Sword of Truth and this turns into a flame war.

I think it is objectively a mistake. Just because people like it, doesn't mean it's the best choice, or even that it's a good choice. I think that, as I've said, the benefits of his massive number of POV characters and the way he changes POV every single chapter(I actually can't think of any advantage to changing POV every single chapter), have huge disadvantages to the story, character development, and most importantly immersion, which have very few, if any, benefits; certainly not enough benefits to outweigh the disadvantages.

You know what, I quit. The disadvantages you mentioned seem to reside only in your head, just like the supposed poor characterization. You see flaws where there are none, and it seems you are largely alone.

I and many others have made salient points. Your arguments boil down to you simply taking the opposite stance and calling out flaws with no objective basis.

So yeah, I quit. I think anyone reading this thread can see who holds the better supported position.

Only in my own mind huh?
http://www.sfwa.org/members/bell/writingtips/spring10.html
there are disadvantages to teeming horde POV, as I've posted before, it increases distance from the character, which reduces immersion and emotional attachment for the reader.

Ok, so it's not poorly written, but I really don't think that it's particularly well written either. And here's why:

This post deserves a full run-down because it's quite well thought out and an ACTUAL GOD DAMN OPINION compared to what normally gets put on Escapist.

Thank you.

1) It has way too many POV(Point of View) characters, and way too many POV changes, which is really just a cheap way of increasing dramatic tension at the expense of emotional attachment to the characters and the development of the main characters.

My opinion of this is that; it attaches you to characters you'd normally never feel for (Samwell) and lets you get a grasp of some of the 'antagonist' characters (Jaimie). Seriously; if we never POV'd Jaimie, we'd be losing out on a lot of what caused him to BE the Kingslayer. It's a style of writing, and I can understand why people who not like it, but I wouldn't call it cheap. It's pretty taxing to keep track of several main characters.

You could easily feel for Samwell. I did before I read any of his POV chapters. You can care for a character that isn't a POV character quite easily. I admit, it is kinda cool to see what Jaime was thinking when he made some of his decisions, but I think it would be more interesting to get more time in Jon Snow's POV instead, for example. I say it's cheap because it increases the tension of the reader without actually making the story any more dramatic, just because it takes longer to see the resolution of the drama. I wouldn't say multiple POV is bad, just that Martin took it way too far. Instead of having a lot of main characters, it's almost like this story has no main characters. There are no characters that i'm really attached to.

2) ...Stuff here
Edit: By this I mean that the author spends more time on characters thinking about an event then he does on actually having the event happen, even for seriously major events, which I find ridiculous. It's like, he builds up all this massive amount of suspense about something, and then it's over. It's just over. It kinda leaves me with this: "really? That was it?" type of feeling.

"The most important events will not take years, they'll take milliseconds."

By that I mean, a lot of what these characters THINK and KNOW is important to the POV. I mean, lets say there was a story about me and you. We're both POV chatacters; you have NO idea what I'm wearing, eating or thinking. Part of watching someones perspective is their thoughts, frankly, it's the most important part.

The thoughts are important yes of course, but the events are important too. Without events, there would be no story, no thoughts, no change, and I can't believe that the thoughts deserve more pages than the events. The actual event parts of these books seem very unsatisfying, as I said.

3) The characters change ?sides? too often. A character will undoubtedly be an enemy for half a book, and then suddenly we are reading chapters from that character's POV and Martin tries to make us like that character, after having spent the last half of a book trying to make us hate them.

Spoiler

Tyrion, and Jaime come to mind.

Edit: By this, I more so mean that the author seems to deceive us about the intentions of too many characters. It works well once or twice, but IMO Martin overuses it and that just builds a sense of distrust in what is happening, as well as creating very Jarring changes in the story, where we have built up a massive amount of hatred for a character, and then suddenly we are in that characters mind and the author tries to make us sympathize with that character.

Song of Ice and Fire is not about Lawful Good Vs. Chaotic Evil. Every character has their faults and their are no Every-man-good-guys. Nathan Drake will not be in future installments.

But on the distrust factor; yeah, because no one does malice for no reason. Every characters actions are generally driven by their motives and what they think is right.

I never said it was about good vs evil, but the lines are no less clearly drawn between one house and another than they are between good and evil. I just think it's a waste to spend half of a book getting the reader to hate Tyrion like he's the skum of the Earth, and then he turns into the best of the Lannisters, even beyond that he's actually a good character, certainly not anywhere near as bad as he was made out to be. The reader builds up a lot of emotional attachment to the character as a villain, and then he ends up being a good guy.

Also, the majority of the characters are either shockingly short-sighted, horrifyingly irrational, or just plain stupid.

Shortening due to this point getting to rant-y. Just understand; some characters who are short-sighted have REASONS to be short sighted. Irrantional people exist. Stupid people exist too, but we're working on that.

Yes many people are short-sighted, irrational, or stupid, but not the majority of them. Like, I can't really think of more than 2 truly intelligent characters. Also, on a more personal note, it's really fricking annoying.

5) The two most interesting "Main" characters: Daenerys and Jon, get some of the least time in the book, seemingly they are almost afterthoughts. Some of the most interesting and most fleshed out characters: Sam Tarly, Ser Jorah, The Hound, Jojen, and Asha Greyjoy are small-part side characters. It's almost as if the more time Martin spends on a character, the more erratic and the less interesting they become. The one exception I can think of is Tyrion, he's literally the only character I can even tolerate anymore.

Everyone loves Tyrion, he's like a short Jack Sparrow.

But really; Ser Jorah wouldn't have much of a roll without Daenerys. Sam wouldn't be much with Jon. The reason these characters are interesting is because they're extending the setting from Darnerys or Jon. They are characters who flesh out the world while the Protagonists handle the central events. That's why they're 'main' characters, they're closer to the events of the story then the secondary characters.

The reason they are interesting to me is because they are fleshed out, and have flaws and pasts and motivations that make sense. Most characters in this series aren't well fleshed out at all.

6) The symbolism is all painfully obvious. The direwolf pups being the most painful example. The black hands of ?the others? being almost as bad. Most everything that happens is painfully obvious. I knew I mean, there is no subtlety at all, despite the fact that Martin seems to be trying to make the story more about political intrigue than anything else.

Breaking the spoiler down;

Spoiler

that Daenerys was going to find a way to hatch the dragon eggs the minute she found them. Same, it's forgivable.

I knew that Khal Drogo was going to die from the minute we first found out about him. I sorta suspected it but not how it happened.

I knew that Rob was going to be Crowned king in the north from the minute the war began. I didn't really catch it. I figured Catelyn would just become the ruler or something, not her son.

I knew that Eddard was going to die pretty much the minute he showed up in the capital.
Did NOT see that coming personally

I knew that the royal children were pure Lannisters the minute that Eddard found out that the last Hand had been looking into Geneologies.Fair enough, I figured it had something to do with Rob's bastards.

to spoiler break down

Spoiler

These were just examples i picked, not by any means everything that I saw coming. when I'm reading, more often than not I know what is going to happen quite a bit ahead of time, but It is one of my specialties, so I guess it's not that bad for everyong else. Specifically, I wasn't referring to Rob replacing Eddard as the lord of Winterfell, I mean about breaking the empire by become king in the North again.

As for symbolism, I meant

Spoiler

the death of Lady representing Sansa's death to the house of Stark. Neseria being driven away showing that Arya was lost to the house of Stark. The others having black hands, obviously the "Black hands of death" The hatching of the Dragon eggs obviously symbolizing Daenerys coming into her own, and becoming worthy of her house. The dragons are pretty symbolic for the house of the dragons in general. The dragons wither and eventually die off, as the house becomes weaker and weaker, until it is nothing but a shell of it's former glory. Then new dragon eggs hatch and grow as the house rises again to power(I'm assuming, that part hasn't happened for me yet). I could go on.

 

[IcyEvils]

To clarify, I think that this story could have been told just as well with 10-12 POV characters and a few small sections from the POV of just random characters. I know that the plot and type of story is completely different, but I'm going to use Wheel of Time as an example. the world is huge and the story is really complex as it follows the 5-10 "main" characters around the world and through their story. And Jordan manages that story without changing POV every single chapter, and without making every single important character have a massive amount of POV. Faile, Lan, Moraine, Alanna, and probably a dozen other important characters only have a handful of POV section.

There be spoilers ahead

Please, you're comparing TWOT to ASOI&F? They are both written in completely different ways, with completely different focuses and ideas. I love both series' equally, but in different ways.

Jordan set out to create a massive, beautiful world, with strong definitions of good (The Dragon, Aes Sedai etc.) and evil (Shai'tan, the Forsaken). The story is Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene's story. In epic fantasy numbers, that is tiny! Jordan created the archetypal struggle for good and evil, because he wanted to have a clear protagonist, antagonist, and pave the way for epic battles (see Dumai's Wells). TWOT is all about balance. Aes Sedai/Asha'man, Saidin/Saidar, the Dragon/Dark One, men/women, lords/peasants, greed/honesty, even man/beast! These are clearly defined, and make it easy for the reader to root for Mat, because he's a good guy with a smile, or Elayne, because she's so compassionate, and to hate Lanfear, who's jealous, corrupt and serves the Dark One.

On the other hand, GRRM wants ambiguity, and political power plays, and he wants to differ from the stereotypical happy ending, protagonist wins, "Sam goes home to Hobbiton with his wife and kids" ending. He felt the need to have many characters to tell this story. He is going for small geographical scale, but large character scale.

Neither writer is bad. They may have some weaknesses, for example I truly believe GRRM is a sex-depraved sadist, but his writing is so gripping I don't care. And Jordan loves his characters too much (see books 7-10) to wrap them up and get to the important parts of the story (i.e. the pace slows to that of a dead snail), but that has made books 11-13 all the sweeter.

Have you noticed how Jordan makes a point of giving each city it's own personality? The Domani girls are sluts, the Tairens proud, the Saldean people quick to anger. This makes up for his lack of delving into many many main characters. GRRM does NOT do any of this. King's Landing is a blank slate, just as the Dreadfort, the Twins, Riverrun, Sunspear, Highgarden and the Arbor are all boring places without the excellent characters GRRM has given them (Winterfell, Pyke and Casterly Rock are exceptions).

I simply think that each author wanted to do his own thing. This means GRRM's style is different, not bad.

Also;
7 Faces of God
Sept/Septon/Septa
Seven Kingdoms

7 Ajahs
7 spokes on the Wheel of Time

What is with the number 7?

Edit: Thanks for the comment Dejanus!

 

[Dejanus]

All right, I said I was done, and I am. I've made all the points I want to anyway. I would just like to thank IcyEvils for his incredibly eloquent response, its basically close to what I was hitting at but he put it very well.

OP: Before I take my leave of the thread, I'd like to apologize to spartan. I got a little angry at the end there and he certainly did not deserve that, and such action is below me.

I agree to disagree, now I think I'll go and start on my third re-read!

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

1. I'm not really sure what you want from me. Congratulations on having an opinion about something. I have one too, but I'm not going to spend a massive wall of text summarizing it to you. You know why? Because you don't care what I think. Why should you? I'm some random stranger on the internet. We have every right to disagree with each other. The only idea that's going to come out of this thread is "Some people like this book series, and others don't", which I like to think most of us already knew.

2. If you don't like the books, what the hell are still reading them for? I mean, these are not short books. Getting through the first 2 without even liking or caring about anything that happens must have taken a downright confusing amount of effort on your part.

3. (and this is the most important one) If you don't like them, DON'T READ THEM.

 

[spartan231490]

To clarify, I think that this story could have been told just as well with 10-12 POV characters and a few small sections from the POV of just random characters. I know that the plot and type of story is completely different, but I'm going to use Wheel of Time as an example. the world is huge and the story is really complex as it follows the 5-10 "main" characters around the world and through their story. And Jordan manages that story without changing POV every single chapter, and without making every single important character have a massive amount of POV. Faile, Lan, Moraine, Alanna, and probably a dozen other important characters only have a handful of POV section.

There be spoilers ahead

Please, you're comparing TWOT to ASOI&F? They are both written in completely different ways, with completely different focuses and ideas. I love both series' equally, but in different ways.

Jordan set out to create a massive, beautiful world, with strong definitions of good (The Dragon, Aes Sedai etc.) and evil (Shai'tan, the Forsaken). The story is Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene's story. In epic fantasy numbers, that is tiny! Jordan created the archetypal struggle for good and evil, because he wanted to have a clear protagonist, antagonist, and pave the way for epic battles (see Dumai's Wells). TWOT is all about balance. Aes Sedai/Asha'man, Saidin/Saidar, the Dragon/Dark One, men/women, lords/peasants, greed/honesty, even man/beast! These are clearly defined, and make it easy for the reader to root for Mat, because he's a good guy with a smile, or Elayne, because she's so compassionate, and to hate Lanfear, who's jealous, corrupt and serves the Dark One.

On the other hand, GRRM wants ambiguity, and political power plays, and he wants to differ from the stereotypical happy ending, protagonist wins, "Sam goes home to Hobbiton with his wife and kids" ending. He felt the need to have many characters to tell this story. He is going for small geographical scale, but large character scale.

Neither writer is bad. They may have some weaknesses, for example I truly believe GRRM is a sex-depraved sadist, but his writing is so gripping I don't care. And Jordan loves his characters too much (see books 7-10) to wrap them up and get to the important parts of the story (i.e. the pace slows to that of a dead snail), but that has made books 11-13 all the sweeter.

Have you noticed how Jordan makes a point of giving each city it's own personality? The Domani girls are sluts, the Tairens proud, the Saldean people quick to anger. This makes up for his lack of delving into many many main characters. GRRM does NOT do any of this. King's Landing is a blank slate, just as the Dreadfort, the Twins, Riverrun, Sunspear, Highgarden and the Arbor are all boring places without the excellent characters GRRM has given them (Winterfell, Pyke and Casterly Rock are exceptions).

I simply think that each author wanted to do his own thing. This means GRRM's style is different, not bad.

Also;
7 Faces of God
Sept/Septon/Septa
Seven Kingdoms

7 Ajahs
7 spokes on the Wheel of Time

What is with the number 7?

Edit: Thanks for the comment Dejanus!

Thanks, I didn't know that Wheel of Time and A Song of Ice and Fire are different, I only said so in the post because I thought they were identical./sarcasm

Yes, the story is different, but I still find that the comparison is applicable in this situation because I am only talking about POV usage. I believe that the worlds are similarly complex, and that the stories are also similarly complex, so I believe that they are comparable in this way.

Not going to address your rant on the obvious fact that the plots and worlds of these two series are very different, because that's obvious, and I said so in the initial post that you are quoting.

7 is a holy number, it is the number of God in Christianity, and probably Jewdaism and Islam as well considering the similarities between those 3 religions(there are supposed to be 7 rings of heaven and I believe 7 levels of hell, My religious lore isn't that good so I could be wrong. I also think there might be something important about the number 7 in Hinduism and Buddism) Why 7 keeps coming up in all the religions, now that's a much better question. Maybe the number 7 is actually the answer to life the universe and everything, not 42.

 

[spartan231490]

I know for a fact that there are several chapters with Jaime as the main Character in book 3. I thought that Rob and Rickon had chapters, but so be it. that's still 11 just off the top of my head. I wasn't even counting the prologue.

Spoiler

I can also remember a chapter with a brother of the night watch planning an escape immediately before 3 horns sounded signalling an attack of "the others."

so make it 12.
And the exact number of POV characters doesn't really matter anyway, so if I have the wrong number I apologize, I was guessing. My point is unaffected.

Edit: Not the best source but a quick google led to wiki: http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/POV_character
14 main POV characters
10 minor POV characters
7 prologue/epilogue characters
That's 31, but go with 24. significantly more than 12

Sorry but WHAT?

First: You talked about over 20 POV chars in the first two books. This is a damn lie.
Second: Your list included 2 chars that never had POV chapters. I knew that without looking into the first 4 books which I read about 3 years ago. But this is not a problem: You used the list to prove someone wrong.

Get your facts right before you write something! If you want to talk about all the books: write that.

I have apologized twice already for my incorrect statement that there were over 20 characters. It felt like there were 50, so I believed that there would have been at least 20, and I was wrong, and have admitted it. Twice.
As I have also said before, the exact number of characters is irrelevant as "too many characters" depends on the story, so an absolute number is meaningless.

As for talking about all the books, I can't because I haven't read them all, but my google search gave me no results for just the first two books. I posted the exact numbers and the source so that everyone could know exactly how many POV characters there were.

 

[spartan231490]

1. I'm not really sure what you want from me. Congratulations on having an opinion about something. I have one too, but I'm not going to spend a massive wall of text summarizing it to you. You know why? Because you don't care what I think. Why should you? I'm some random stranger on the internet. We have every right to disagree with each other. The only idea that's going to come out of this thread is "Some people like this book series, and others don't", which I like to think most of us already knew.

2. If you don't like the books, what the hell are still reading them for? I mean, these are not short books. Getting through the first 2 without even liking or caring about anything that happens must have taken a downright confusing amount of effort on your part.

3. (and this is the most important one) If you don't like them, DON'T READ THEM.

1) I don't want anything from you. As I said in the OP, I was bored. Making this thread was just a way to entertain me. Also, the series is pretty popular on this site, so I was curious what everyone would think.

2) I never said I disliked the books, I said that I didn't think they were all that well written. I like a great many books that weren't all that well written because the story is still good. Also, these books aren't that big for me. I have read books bigger than "A Game of Thrones" in a single day. Admittedly, I don't really like them all that much, I just can't "get into" them, so it took me like 4/5 days to read "A Game of Thrones," 2 weeks to read "A Clash of Kings," and it's been over two months since I started "A Storm of Swords."

I have a couple friends who really really like the series so I wanted to give it an extra-good shot. and see if it got better.

3) Once again, with feeling: I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T LIKE THEM!!! I said that I didn't think they were well written. For the record, I actually do kinda like the books, they're just really hard to get into.

 

[Lyri]

Spoiler

Tyrion puts a lot of effort into protecting the people who are loyal to him, when Tywin learned that they would have to give Sandor Clegane up to someone's justice(I forget who, it's relatively early in the 3rd book), Tywin's only complaint is that he will lose his "dog" but he then immediately admits that he can find another, without any prompting. Tyrion feels a certain contempt for the nobility(at least I got that impression when the city was starving, he makes a lot of sarcastic comments and has even more sarcastic thoughts about the nobility), whereas the other Lannisters have a strong belief in the superiority of the nobility. Tyrion attempts to protect the innocent, like Alaya(I think I'm misspelling her name. The whore he used to cover his visits to Shae, whereas Tywin and Jaime both ordered the wholesale slaughter of individuals whose only crime was living in the wrong lord's lands. Maybe he changes later on, but right now, he is very very different from the rest of his family.

Spoiler

That's kind of a bad example you see because the people Tyrion is protecting he's protecting them from other Lannisters.
Gregore Clegane is being protected from a Dornish Lord, they've been waiting for that for several years and if they were to openly deny it war would be declared, after all they're not giving them "the kings justice" which is what they want.
Tywin want's to keep him around because "The mountain that rides" is the feircest and most terrifying knight around, he's also pretty loyal to the King. A good pawn to keep, no?
Tyrion is protecting a whore because he needs her for whatever reason he does,albeit the crimes are nothing alike but the reason behind the protection is the same.
The Lannisters want to keep them protected and so they are. The Lannisters both need them for their own reasons and so they will keep them, they have been faithful enough.
A Lannister always pays his debts.

 

[spartan231490]

Spoiler

Tyrion puts a lot of effort into protecting the people who are loyal to him, when Tywin learned that they would have to give Sandor Clegane up to someone's justice(I forget who, it's relatively early in the 3rd book), Tywin's only complaint is that he will lose his "dog" but he then immediately admits that he can find another, without any prompting. Tyrion feels a certain contempt for the nobility(at least I got that impression when the city was starving, he makes a lot of sarcastic comments and has even more sarcastic thoughts about the nobility), whereas the other Lannisters have a strong belief in the superiority of the nobility. Tyrion attempts to protect the innocent, like Alaya(I think I'm misspelling her name. The whore he used to cover his visits to Shae, whereas Tywin and Jaime both ordered the wholesale slaughter of individuals whose only crime was living in the wrong lord's lands. Maybe he changes later on, but right now, he is very very different from the rest of his family.

Spoiler

That's kind of a bad example you see because the people Tyrion is protecting he's protecting them from other Lannisters.
Gregore Clegane is being protected from a Dornish Lord, they've been waiting for that for several years and if they were to openly deny it war would be declared, after all they're not giving them "the kings justice" which is what they want.
Tywin want's to keep him around because "The mountain that rides" is the feircest and most terrifying knight around, he's also pretty loyal to the King. A good pawn to keep, no?
Tyrion is protecting a whore because he needs her for whatever reason he does,albeit the crimes are nothing alike but the reason behind the protection is the same.
The Lannisters want to keep them protected and so they are. The Lannisters both need them for their own reasons and so they will keep them, they have been faithful enough.
A Lannister always pays his debts.

Spoiler

I disagree. Tyrion can no longer use the whore for anything, and he still protects her. He also tries to protect the innocent peasants when he can, whereas the others do not. He probably changes as the series goes on, but as of now, he seems to be very very different than the rest of his family. He even felt guilty that the whore was whipped because of him, I can't picture Tywin feeling guilty about it even if he ordered some random stranger of the street to be whipped just to prove a point. People are nothing but pawns, as you said, to most of the Lannisters. But from what I've seen, Tyrion cares for people, not just their usefulness to him.

 

[IcyEvils]

Snip

Oh shit dude my apologies, I never even seen the bit you later emboldened. Now I feel like a tit..

I'm just going to throw a point out, that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Because of having so many events happening in different places in GRRM's world, and the only means of communicating long-distance by raven, the 30 or whatever POV are needed to make sure the characters (and the reader) are kept up to date. In contrast Jordan has Travelling to allow people to communicate, and the events only really happen around the 6 main characters anyway.

 

[Mathak]

Why ASoIaF is poorly written: GRRM is under the impression he can write in Ye Olde English. He really can't.

Still a great read, though.

 

[SaetonChapelle]

Ive never read the book. The closest I ever got to anything "Fire and Ice" related is a Resident Evil comic... Well, I fail.

 

[Lyri]

Spoiler

I disagree. Tyrion can no longer use the whore for anything, and he still protects her. He also tries to protect the innocent peasants when he can, whereas the others do not. He probably changes as the series goes on, but as of now, he seems to be very very different than the rest of his family. He even felt guilty that the whore was whipped because of him, I can't picture Tywin feeling guilty about it even if he ordered some random stranger of the street to be whipped just to prove a point. People are nothing but pawns, as you said, to most of the Lannisters. But from what I've seen, Tyrion cares for people, not just their usefulness to him.

Spoiler

He protects the whore because he likes her, it's that simple. He wants her around.
He protects and helps the peasants because he wants them to like Joffery as king.

Tyrion does care for people but he's in a different position from the others, he's not a lord like Tywin, he's not a queen like Cersei and he's not a knight like Jaime.
You're thinking about Tryrion as if he is exactly like them, but he isn't in the first place. He's still using people for is own ends but he sympathises more with them because of his unique position.
A man such as he needs friends more than the others do because their position grants them safety for the most part.
Part of the reason Tyrion is alive is because of his own wit and the fact that if anyone kills him, whilst nobody would shed a tear for him the Lannister's would drop the might of Casterly rock on them with full force.

 

[The Madman]

If you were to reach A Dance with Dragons, I can think of several events that would please you. Plenty that wouldn't, but the good is there. And it's not like nothing good ever happens, Robb had victories, Jon is growing into a capable leader, Arya, while losing her identity, is becoming kind of a badass. Sansa undergoes a LOT of growth in the fourth book, which you have not yet read.

Dany is becoming a kickass warrior queen, despite her mistakes.

Question: Did you stop reading after that certain part at the Twins?

I stopped reading at the point when a little girl, Arya I presume, had left a man (Admitedly he was an asshole but still) to die and had met up with some dark cult or somesuch who were 'testing' her or something like that by having her eat maggots from a skull as I recall, a task the little girl did easily.

That's around the point of no return for me. I'm a very protective guy towards my family, if something like that happened to anyone and if any were reduced to such levels of utter passionless cruelty I'd be broken. The thought is just terrifying.

So yeah. maybe it gets better, maybe it doesn't, but the bad just outweighs the good in my mind. I don't want to reread that again! Like I said I can appreciate the authors skill and understand why people enjoy it, but it's just too much for me.

Just too depressing. Too bleak. I'll stick with less horrifying authors like Stephen King, Lovecraft, Clive Barker, George Orwell and the like.

 

[targren]

I agree with your premise, but not with your reasons, (other than the characterization, which I'll go more into below). I stopped reading ASoIaF after Feast for Crows (although conversations with the guy who turned me onto the series way back confirm that the trend has continued into Dance), because it just honestly got impossible to enjoy it.

You sort of have a point with the POV characters. That really came to a head in Feast, though. The story, as GRRM tells it, is that the manuscript was too big for one book, so he split it into two (and the 2nd half apparently took 5 more years, but that's another rant for another time), and what did we get? All of the crap characters that suck. No Arya, no Jon, no Tyrion. Oh, but we got Brienne of Tarth! :eyeroll:

Maybe I'm getting old and value my precious and all too rare leisure time these days, but how about letting the good guys get something in the W column for once, George? Yeah, I know, his philosophy is "real life isn't nice," but that's the point. I'm reading for escapism because real life sucks. We all know this, thanks. If I wanted to be depressed, I'd pay $0.50 for a newspaper, not $25 for a hardback novel.

3: Having characters be black and white would just make the book worse. Again, I haven't read the books, but "A character will undoubtedly be a bad-guy for half a book, and then suddenly we are reading chapters from that character's POV and Martin tries to make us like that character, after having spent the last half of a book trying to make us hate them," implies that you don't care about how complex a character is - you just want a clear villain. Martin isn't 'trying' to make you like anyone - he's just telling the story from that person's point of view. If the character was just evil and killed people just because he's evil, he would be a boring character. It is much more satisfying to see 'evil' characters with strong motivations in something other than just being evil.

Your criticism of the point is valid, Eli, but OP does have a point. When he says "A character will undoubtedly be a bad-guy for half a book, and then suddenly we are reading chapters from that character's POV and Martin tries to make us like that character, after having spent the last half of a book trying to make us hate them," he's right. Martin doesn't do it with complexity.

The "villains" are mustache-twirling, cackling caricatures who resort to rape and murder as a matter of course, throw 9-year-olds off of buildings, and pretty much rival Ming the Merciless in terms of depth. Until that magic moment where they're supposed to become a sympathetic character when, rather than being 'complex,' they just come off as skinwalkers taking over the bad guy's body and pretty much creating a new character entirely.

It really is as bad as he's saying.