Why I think the ME3 fans are actually mad

[KingofMadCows]

Really? So you're not supposed to think that the main quest of a 30 hour game that's in the middle of a trilogy is important to the overall plot of the series? Yeah, that makes sense.

Lol exaggeration much?

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

The point of the game was to delay the reapers, which you did. It was important in that it made the Reapers less powerful coming into the system then they would have been.

the fact that The Reapers were able to mangle together a few half assed attempts to make more things to use against the organic races does NOT negate the fact that they are worse off then they would have been.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Essentially, because they didn't do anything with the Collectors or the suicide squad in Mass Effect 3, Mass Effect 2 was basically a side quest stretched out to a full game.

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

re: game journalism.

Of course they're in league together. It's not some huge conspiracy (which is how "in league together" can be interpreted as implying), but it's certainly a parasitic relationship. Game journalists need to get the best access possible to the game studios, the designers, the writers, the artists and everyone else involved in the games. People are far more likely to go talk to someone who they think is going to be friendly toward them than someone they view as antagonistic. That's just human nature, and there's no way around it. Gaming journalism (and journalism in general) will always have this issue. What we need to do is to find reviewers who have the same feelings towards the kinds of games we like that we do. Then figure out when that reviewer is giving a good review for the sake of keeping the relationship with the publishers, and when they're giving a good review because it's a good game.

Damn strait. Here is probably the most egregious example of what you describ, and is the reason I absolutely do not care what reviewers write anymore (although I still listen to the gamecritics.com podcast with an open mind): http://www.pcgamer.com/review/dragon-age-2-review/

I feel like such an idiot for buying that game based on a review as it is such an obvious EA/Bioware advertisement. Don't get me wrong, I know there are people who love DAII, but that review does not mention any of the negatives of the game, NONE. Nor does it mention any of the differences from the first that might make fans of the first skip the second. It was a travesty of a review on so many levels. But it makes sense when one considers that PC Gamer had been given first access to the code for an exclusive, which means money for the site/magazine. That is not the same as a true bribe, but in my book it might as well be because the end result is the same: a review that is written to please the owner of the IP and not to inform the reader/consumer.

Since 2008, traditional gaming software sales have been in decline and in the last 2 months they have started to freefall. In 2008 in the UK 4 billion pounds were spent, last year it was 2.1, and this year will be even less. I think part of the reason is that gamers feel used and are tired of being manipulated.

The following is a quote from a great Gamasutra piece, and all you need to do is replace Zynga with EA and you will get my feelings on the matter:

When an entity exists in an ecosystem, and acts within that ecosystem in a way that is short-sighted, behaving in a way that is actively destructive to the healthy functioning of that ecosystem and the other entities in it (including, in the long term, themselves) -- yes, I believe that that is evil. And I believe that Zynga does exactly that.

A "good" company is one which provides goods or services of real value in exchange for a fair price. A good game company recognizes that its developers are the ones who create that value, and treats them as valuable, especially if they are good at what they do. It follows practices that are sustainable. And it ensures that, at the end of the day, the world is a little better for having their goods and services.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/167244/Turning_down_Zynga_Why_I_left_after_the_210M_Omgpop_buy.php

 

[JediMB]

The reason you're being derided as immature children is because you are. The fact that you didn't like the ending, and to claim that this "ruined" the entire product and constituted false advertising is ridiculous. It's their story. More importantly, if you took the time to actually understand what they were trying to do with that ending instead of simply joining the knee-jerk reaction parade, you might realize that the ending is brilliant. It's a smart, creative, subtle ending - slightly flawed, but it literally reshapes 300+ hours and thousands of paths and choices in less then two minutes. It gives qualities to the plot and characters that were never there before, and makes you question every moment and every choice you ever made. The fact that they used a scalpel and not a sledgehammer seems to make inaccessible to people, and I think that any changes will simplify appeal to the lowest common denominator by simply explaining what was supposed to be thought-provoking and diagramming what was once philosophical.

People keep saying these things, but they never go into detail to explain their reasoning. Meanwhile, the fans arguing against the current ending have produced detailed deconstructions of the ending, compared the stories and themes both between the games in the trilogy and with celebrated traditional literary works, and explained why it's unfitting for the genre and emotionally unsatisfying.

It would seem you can't really counter the arguments, so instead you attack the ones making them, all the while spouting vague nonsense about finding subtle brilliance in a sequence of events that are proven to suffer from last-minute cuts, rewrites, and complete displacement of several important subplots.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

 

[JediMB]

I think you have the right idea, the wrong track. Indoctrination seemed to have mostly been used to create 'sleeper agents' who would infiltrate the civilizations set to be destroyed, and rat out any groups who tried to hide from the extinction. The Protheans developed detection to try and root out these agents and thus be able to successfully hide some of their forces from the Reapers.

In my mind, the Catalyst was actually the signal that gets sent from the Citadel as the 'wake-up call' to the Reapers to begin the extinction, and the Crucible was designed to 'hack' that Signal, in this case by either creating some sort of feedback loop that resulted in exploding Reapers, or to make them all go away and not come back.

Furthermore, it was designed in such a way that it would use up the entire power source of the Mass Relays through using them to, well, relay the signal, and cause their destruction, ending both the threat of the Reapers, and freeing every civilization from having to follow the Reaper's plan for technology development.

The thing is that the ME3 storyboards we've seen describe the Catalyst as a stabilizing element required for the Crucible to work as intended. Supposedly, without the Catalyst the Crucible would just be one big eezo bomb.

Keep in mind also that the background given for the Crucible describes it as a weapon originally intended for standalone use, but which eventually (after cycles of work) was modified to incorporate the Citadel/Catalyst so that they could get it to work.

 

[Kreett]

Also, when the Collector base was destroyed, Harbinger says to the Collector General, "we will find another way." Another way to do what? Clearly the Collectors were supposed to be a part of the Reaper's plan but I guess Mass Effect 3 just forgot about that.

The Collectors were ordered to start the reproduction cycle early so they could get the new reaper done faster, and to find ways to weaken the other races, which is why they studied them so much.

The Reaper's saying "finding another way" is them talking about making the new reaper, and finding new ways to weaken the races and or get things to fight the races with.

Which they did with the Rachni queen, and the whole asari mutant spawner etc. etc.

that seemed kinda obvious.

Except none of that turned out to be important.

The Collectors still needed millions of humans to complete the Reaper so they wouldn't have gotten it done before the Reaper fleet arrived. Even if they did, one extra Reaper wouldn't have made a difference.

It's true the Collectors gathered data on the various races but again, it wouldn't really matter after the Reapers arrived since the Reapers could just do it themselves.

The fact that, as you mentioned, the Reapers were easily able to enslave the Rachni queen, create Asari husks, brutes, etc. without the help the Collectors suggests that the Reapers didn't really need the Collectors.

However, Harbinger telling the Collector General that the Reapers "will find another way" implies that it was something important to the Reaper's plans, something that the Reapers actually needed the Collectors to do, and that the destruction of the Collectors was as significant setback for the Reapers as the destruction of Sovereign. The fact that none of that mattered in Mass Effect 3 made the main story of ME2 kind of pointless. That seems kind of obvious.

I still picture the human reaper flying through space like superman

 

[JediMB]

Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

The thing is that according to Harbinger they weren't studying organics so that they had weaknesses to exploit. Rather, they were studying organics to find out if any of the species would be useful in Reaper form, and came to the conclusion that only the humans might be.

?Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.?
?Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.?
?Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.?
?Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.?
?Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.?

?Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.?
?Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.?
?Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.?
?Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.?
?Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.?
?Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.?
?Turian; you are considered...too primitive.?

 

[J Tyran]

What's really weird is why are gaming websites so against it. I can get certain individuals disliking it and arguing against it, that's fine though a lot of them speak from intense ignorance (Movie Bob) but the fact that very few seem to be posting any material from people supportive of it. Why is that? Surely a game site would be interested in generating discussion by showing both sides?

They are against it because many of these people that are somehow gifted with a platform to spew their opinions over the Internet perceive themselves as "artists".

 

[Magicman10893]

I am mad!
How did you know?
Are you following me?

Look ever since I played the ending and did my own "WTF!" I've been convinced that Bioware have done this deliberately, created an ending that would cause discussion, then a month later they would say "Had you fooled! here's the real ending!.
However it's now blown up in their faces, three weeks after the american release the controversy still hasn't died down and what ever happens from this point they have lost a great number of fans.

I many be wrong (it has been known to happen) but that's my take on it.

That was my first thought. Also, they said they were going to give fans resolution/closure in a future announcement in April. Why do I have a feeling that on April 1st they are going to troll us all and either a) release a new ending that is even more stupid than the one in the game as a joke or b) go "April Fools! That was the REAL ending all along! We got you good!"

 

[SajuukKhar]

The thing is that according to Harbinger they weren't studying organics so that they had weaknesses to exploit. Rather, they were studying organics to find out if any of the species would be useful in Reaper form, and came to the conclusion that only the humans might be.

?Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.?
?Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.?
?Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.?
?Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.?
?Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.?

?Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.?
?Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.?
?Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.?
?Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.?
?Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.?
?Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.?
?Turian; you are considered...too primitive.?

And you really think that they didn't also take notes on what breaks those species in order to use it against them?

The goals of finding ways to exploit the races and fiding out which race sucks the least so we can add them to our collective are two things that both use the exact same path to get the answers.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Read your own post much? You're the one who said that the Collectors weren't supposed to be important.

Except the destruction of the Collectors had nothing to do with the actual arrival of the Reapers.

And yes, the Reapers are weaker but not in any significant way. Having the galaxy invaded by 10,001 Reapers won't be that much different than being invaded by 10,000 Reapers. As for the experiments that the Collectors could have made, land troops don't exactly make a big difference when the enemy can just vaporize you from space.

Actually I implied that they are redundant sub-system that eases the work of the main system, redundancy =/= unimportance. Try harder next time kid.

Actually no, it doesn't imply importance, it implies they will do something else to get the same result. Your extrapolating nonexistent importance out of a quote that doesn't imply any sort of real importance beyond "now we will have to do ourselves what you could have done for us before we got there".

Yes, I'm sure you meant "redundant sub-system" when you wrote "nonexistent importance."

The delay of the Reapers was actually in reference to the Arrival DLC, secondly the experiments the collectors did could have shown physical, genetics, and psychological weaknesses to exploit that would have made The Reapers invasion more easy.

Yes the Reapers COULD have just come in and started blasting everything with lasers but when you are given the opportunity to gather more information about the htings you plan to kill so you can exploit it to make it easier why wouldn't you take it?

The Arrival has nothing to do with the discussion of how the main quest of ME2 wasn't important.

And yes, the Collectors could have helped in the Reaper invasion, I never denied that. The question is not whether or not they can help, it's a matter of how much they could have helped. After all, an extra 5 husks would have helped the Reapers but not by much.

If you're going to make the entire middle of a trilogy about the Collectors, why would you not make them a more significant part of the Reaper's plan? Why include no evidence of how the destruction of Collectors hurt the Reapers in ME3?

 

[JediMB]

And you really think that they didn't also take notes on what breaks those species in order to use it against them?

The goals of finding ways to exploit the races and fiding out which race sucks the least so we can add them to our collective are two things that both use the exact same path to get the answers.

Of course they could, hypothetically, but that was never their purpose.

That said, their studies of genetic deviations probably lead to the discovery of the potential of Ardat-Yakshi husks (a.k.a. Banshees).

 

[Warachia]

The destruction of the Collectors apparently meant nothing since it didn't even slow the Reapers. I guess Shepard forgot to give everyone info on how to go through to Omega 4 Relay so they can verify his story and the galaxy remains totally unprepared for the Reaper invasion.

Well, destroying the Collectors wasn't as much about slowing down the Reapers as it was about saving the colonies and finding out why they were being harvested. It was all supposed to be foreshadowing for the Reapers' "master plan" to harvest the human race (and only the human race) for its utility in Reaper form.

Then they took the concept of organics being turned into Reapers in ME3, and twisted it into something that didn't make sense.

If you want the reasons they only go after humans, Harbringer gives them during the fights if he starts attacking anyone except shepard, one of the reasons is that the turians and asari would also be good, but the humans were already in bad locations (the colony locations I mean) and were easier to pick off with the least amount of retaliation.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Spoiler

Then how did TIM plan to gain access to the Collector base? How did TIM gain access to the Collector base?

Cerberus created EDI after all. If you agree to let him have the base then your relationship with him isn't nearly as antagonistic as the paragon path; it can be assumed that he can quickly get what's needed to cross the relay from EDI whereas the Alliance would have some pretty heavy reverse-engineering to do to get it working on any of their ship. And for what? I forgot to mention this, but the Collector base is the only thing maintaining a "safe zone" so close to the galactic core. With it under Cerberus control, anything can be written as Cerberus being able to keep the Alliance from jumping the relay safely. With the base destroyed, anyone jumping the relay, IFF or not, is screwed anyway since there is no "safe zone" to jump to anymore.

It would have been really stupid for Shepard not to get pictures and scans of the Collector base or gather technology and wreckage after they came back from the explosion so they have plenty of evidence.

Also, the governments may not believe but that doesn't prevent Shepard and his team from spreading the truth and gathering more support. Shepard would have much more support now that he stopped the threat of the Collectors. Plus they already have support from individuals in governments or other positions of power.

If it's destroyed, they aren't coming back (see above). Even with scans, hell even if you could personally beam the Council or Alliance high command to the Collector base, it's Reaper technology the same way the Citadel, Relays or bits of Sovereign is reaper technology: It's from a powerful previous race, but nothing that proves what the reapers really are.

Like I said, it's implied Shepard willingly surrendered to the Alliance. Fighting them was obviously out of the question and Shepard respects the Alliance anyway. Perhaps Shep didn't anticipate being completely grounded by them, but that's what happened. Is the Alliance dumb for grounding Shep? You bet. But what was a giant unwieldy entity like them going to do without much of any proof? They kind of believed, but it's still a big system that has a hard time being flexible to Shepard's A-Team shenanigans.

But why even have that DLC at all. Why not just have ME3 follow the ending of the main ME2 story? Why not have ME3 begin with Shepard's team intact going around the galaxy gathering support to prepare for the Reapers? That way, even if the Collectors weren't important, the fact that they brought the team together and created the impetus for them to gather support would have made the main ME2 story significant.

Heck, even if they follow the DLC, why split the entire team apart? Why not have the team stay together and continue the mission without Shepard? Why didn't they all stay in contact while gathering support so they can help each other?

You seem unaware that, timeline-wise, Arrival doesn't necessarily happen after the suicide mission. It can take place any time between the second round of recruitments and the suicide mission as well as after it.

Also, you seem unclear as to why Shepard was stuck on earth: Shepard was literally stuck on earth. He/She was basically court-marshalled. Just shy of being actually imprisoned. Yes it's dumb of them to do that to Shepard, but again, colossal unwieldy galactic bureaucracy with strict laws.
Speaking of the Arrival DLC, after that mission you get to meet Hackett in person on the Normandy and he warns you that while he believes you and supports you fully, political ramifications will have to be answered. He says: "At some point, you're gonna have to go to Earth and face the music. I can't stop it, but I can and will make them fight for it. [...] Do whatever you have to do out here, but when Earth calls, make sure you're there with your dress blues on, ready to take the hit."
You're stuck on Earth, maybe for longer than you hoped, but it's not much of a stretch from the Alliance's point of view.
So your team spreads out, trying to do their thing as best they can and they do mention having to leave you on Earth when you meet them again in ME3. You even have a little argument with Anderson at the very start of ME3 about how they took your ship and stuck you in a corner to wait while the reapers loomed ever closer. The fact that Shep was on very good terms with two admirals is what prevented imprisonment, but neither of them could help having to restrain Shepard to Vancouver, most likely to the Alliance base itself.

I know why Shepard had to surrender to the Alliance but why make that a part of the game at all? Why have ME3 follow a DLC that basically erases the biggest accomplishment of the main game? Why even make a DLC that twists the meaning of the ending and diminish its significance?

It would be like if the Emperor discovers Vader's plan to take over the Empire with Luke and kills him at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, thus rendering Luke's duel with Vader in Empire Strikes Back pointless.

 

[JediMB]

If you want the reasons they only go after humans, Harbringer gives them during the fights if he starts attacking anyone except shepard, one of the reasons is that the turians and asari would also be good, but the humans were already in bad locations (the colony locations I mean) and were easier to pick off with the least amount of retaliation.

Actually, Harbinger says the Asari's reliance on other species for reproduction is a genetic weakness, and that Turians are too primitive to make the cut.

Only the humans are considered "viable possibilities".

I put quotes a couple of posts up.

 

[putowtin]

I am mad!
How did you know?
Are you following me?

Look ever since I played the ending and did my own "WTF!" I've been convinced that Bioware have done this deliberately, created an ending that would cause discussion, then a month later they would say "Had you fooled! here's the real ending!.
However it's now blown up in their faces, three weeks after the american release the controversy still hasn't died down and what ever happens from this point they have lost a great number of fans.

I many be wrong (it has been known to happen) but that's my take on it.

That was my first thought. Also, they said they were going to give fans resolution/closure in a future announcement in April. Why do I have a feeling that on April 1st they are going to troll us all and either a) release a new ending that is even more stupid than the one in the game as a joke or b) go "April Fools! That was the REAL ending all along! We got you good!"

Then the pitchforks and tourches will be out!

 

[Dandark]

I came into this expecting another troll topic calling all the ME3 fans whiny and entitled but this was actully a nice interesting read that I think I would agree with.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Ah the escapist, where one comes to make a reasoned argument, and gets Fappy making masturbation jokes

Games are supposed to be fun though, and so we should have fun no matter how much others try to suck it out of them. But I for one thinks a new age is coming!

Why do you think he's called Fappy

Single track mind, that one.

 

[Varrdy]

I knew for sure I've been gradually getting less frustrated with the ending but far more frustrated with certain people reporting on it, especially when those certain people flat out admit they a) don't have an investment in the series and b) haven't seen the ending.

I called out a "hater" on those two points you mentioned and for some strange reason went off on a right old rant about how I said he had no interest in gaming AT ALL and that how he was going to be a game dev, knew almost everyone at BioWare and how dare I suggest that I know more about games than he did?

While all I did was say he had no interest in Mass Effect, I didn't even have to correct his self-aggrandising and misquoting (of me) rant because he already made himself look like a Grade-A twonk all by himself. That and other members picked it apart for me before the thread was locked (before I could respond myself). He tried to stick to his guns but then, in the middled of his "Me am de best and he's a wanker!" arguments, he admitted he'd not bought or played ME3 yet!

1-0!

It's so sad that people will flat out refuse to accept we have a point or even look at the vast piles of evidence to back up our claims because to do so might make them realise we might be right, thus denying them an opportunity to be a cockend by hurling insults at people from the safety of their chairs.

In short: Too right, mate!