(Since I don't want this post to be several pages long, I'm editing out things I said in my last post. You'll have to read back. My apologies.
First, allow me to point out that you have condemned me to an idiot with no perspective based on one singular action. That you have made this decision based off 1 choice I have made in my life. 1 choice negates everything about me, to you. There are idiots with less perspective than me out there.
Of course there are. I'm sure they're off doing incredibly ridiculous things involving explosives. Or destroying Jennifer Hepler's social media.
I couldn't choose to not investigate the reapers, or to not side with the illusive man in 2, to side with Sirus, and so on and so forth. Let's not go overboard on the choice. I like how you put "meanings" in there. You were really stretching for extra commas there weren't you. I thought this was about artistic integrity, isn't the "meanings" the point behind the artistic integrity argument. Their "intended message". If I got to choose the meanings, doesn't that render artistic integrity moot?
Let's be practical here, I got to choose who Shepard screwed, who he allied, and the tone in which he expressed himself. Then his looks/gender I guess if we are counting that. I wouldn't say that is everything. The choice was pretty great as, I said, the game was innovative but let's not get carried away here.
Seriously? You got to choose whether the Krogan genophage lived or died, and since Krogans apparently reproduce at an alarming rate (thus the need), you were responsible for millions of lives or deaths. You could destroy the quarians or the geth. You could cripple the rachni or not. You chose whether Kaiden or Ashley lived. You chose whether Wrex lived. You chose whether every NPC member of the Normandy who wasn't Joker lived. You could have killed Legion and Mordin and caused Tali to kill herself. Every member of the cast of two lived or died based on your decisions. You could have killed the council. You could have killed Kaiden or Ashley on the Citadel. You chose whether Miranda lived. You chose whether Edi and Joker pursued a relationship. You chose humanity's representative on the council. You chose whether Earth survived or not. You chose your relationship. You chose every physical detail of Shepard, and every personality factor. You chose Shepard's response in almost every conversation in the game. I'm pretty sure I'm still missing a few. Feel free to add.
As for the plot itself, this isn't some sort of game framework or collaborative storytelling. This isn't dungeons and dragons. This isn't Little Big Planet. At some point, they needed to take the wheel. To suggest that choices they made to advance the plot somehow deprived you of critical choices is utterly ridiculous. At that point, you might as well create your own game, or use some sort of builder like MUGEN or RPG Maker, because if the every choice you don't get to make is some sort of deprivation, you need to stop playing games at all.
BTW, meanings was incorrect nomenclature. What I was referring to was your ability to affect Shepard's moral compass. I should have said something like "morality" or somesuch. I don't edit my posts after the fact. My apologies for the confusion.
If you think you know whether races of billions lived or died, you need to rethink that. The game didn't give that much closure, and people are still out there discussing what the end even means.
I was talking about the quarian/geth conflict and the genophage, not the ending. While I'm sure it offers you no solace, I feel a fantastic amount of closure. Enough to comment.
Because I just told you that is what the lead designer OF THE GAME Casey claimed. That was his words, not mine. Pay attention, I am trying to provide perspective. You seriously need to learn what people are upset over before acting as though you have some opinion that matters.
No, you're the one that suggested there's no risk that they could reopen the plot without altering the lore. Apparently, you think a complete rewrite to the ending doesn't seem to change anything. Since the people involved were the lead writer and the lead designer (per Patrick Weekes' little hatchet job on the PA Forums.)I would think they'd be entitled to set the ending as canon and that any alteration beyond some explanation might ruin what they were trying to say. You know, maybe a little.
Bioware has claimed, since ME2, that the canon is whatever the player wants it to be. Hell, they were proud of that perspective. It supported the mission statement of the franchise. Ultimately, pointing this stuff out isn't going to matter much to you though as you clearly don't follow Bioware in the media or else you would be aware of the lies told. Or at the very least have arguments that defend them besides the recent "artistic integrity" copout press release.
Wow. You seriously believe this. You believe that Bioware saying that your choices are canon allows you to dictate terms to them. You honestly believe that statement gives you carte blanche to demand that they alter the plot to their game to suit your personal needs. Do you go to Burger King, order bananas on your Whopper, and when they say, we don't have any, start raging, because they promised you could "Have It Your Way"?
You get choices in this game. Way more then you get in any other game that isn't some sort of open gaming framework where you have to design your own game (Little Big Planet, et al). However, you still have to pick off the menu! Saying you have a right to change the plot itself is sheer lunacy. They didn't extend that privilege to you - otherwise, why the heck did they hire writers? Why not just set up a whole ton of polls?
As for the "invalid" artistic integrity argument - they're suddenly not allowed to have a vision for their game because it doesn't match yours? The fanbase didn't seem to mind before. The first two games won awards and critical acclaim and this very large fanbase that has gotten very self-entitled. Where was the critique of their vision before?
More importantly, what makes it invalid? The fact that they've used suggestions from you ingrates before doesn't make this a collaborative effort. If they wanted to build an ending based on fan feedback, they certainly could have done it. However, changing it after the fact completely undermines their artistic vision, since now the control of what the end user gets has been taken out of their hands. It's a soulless corporate decision, and if they do some sort of brutal rewrite so that entitled fans get their hug and their "closure", so they can stop crying to their therapists about how the bad man Casey hurt them, it will be an utter catastrophe, both for Bioware and the medium of gaming itself. It'll empower an entire legion of whiny b***hes, who will spend their time buying cupcakes and whatever ridiculous publicity stunts they can come up with to undermine the concept of game writing as we know it. It'll make every single game design decision by every creator open to fan debate. It's literally a pandora's box that will ruin creative vision in the gaming industry and turn every game into the lowest common denominator dreck that things like Call of Duty Modern Warfare have become.
It'll justify every rotten thing Roger Ebert has every said about games, game designers, and fans.
Now this may not be on the same scale of those quotes but this is consumer rights, specifically the right to protest. Consumers have not broken any laws. Everyone feels the need to bring up how silly it was for an FTC complaint for Bioware lying about their product. You don't find it silly that people will defend a liar but say the people who claim "That isn't fair" as morally wrong?
You're confusing immorality with incorrectness. Whining and crying about the ending isn't immoral. It's incorrect. Nobody's trying to restrict your right to whine and complain (although, that whole Child's Play thing was a touch low on the morality meter). You have every right to stand outside your local Play/Gamestop/Best Buy/Fry's/Whatever with a picket sign, or go to the Bioware offices and stand in Dr. Ray's parking space until he caves. It doesn't make it any less incorrect.
As for the not broken any laws things, I think the Jennifer Hepler thing is definitely harassment, but I'm not really interested in semantics.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of [Publishers & devs cutting content to sell as DLC/stagnant writing in games] is for [consumers] to do nothing."
This isn't just incorrect, it's libel. You're accusing the writers of deliberately cutting content. While we can argue about 0-Day DLC some other time, to suggest that this game isn't what the people at Bioware (aside from the guy who through everyone under the bus when it would make him wildly popular...) wanted to put out is pure libel and character assassination.
More importantly, your making some sort of insinuation that the endings are designed for some sort of DLC hooks, while I provided a perfect logical explanation for why the endings had to maintain a similar quality.
This is nothing but conjecture and libel without a shred of proof. The fact that they're considering altering the ending is a concession to this whiny mass, not part of some sort of EA-fueled Bioware conspiracy to force you to buy DLC.
This game stands up perfectly well without any help.
More importantly, get some perspective. The Eisenhower quote is from his inaugural address. He's talking about the sacrifices made by soldiers in World War II and Korea. Somehow, I think there's a critical gap between the people that gave their lives to stop a genocide, or prevent a country falling under repressive communism and you not liking a video game. I don't think you're defending nearly the same principle and nearly the same sacrifice. Maybe in your mind, but nowhere else. Drawing that sort of parallel is more then a little egotistical.
This certainly isn't a defense against some sort of video game publisher/designer tyranny, and you're not Che Guevera, or whatever freedom fighter you seem to want to associate with. There's no immorality or tyranny that needs to be rooted out, except maybe in your head. If you don't like 0-Day DLC, don't buy games that have it. Lots of people didn't buy Asura's Wrath, mostly because it was terrible, and even if they did, they're probably incensed about the false ending, but you're perfectly allowed to defend your point with your wallet.
You don't have to buy a single thing Bioware ever makes ever. You can become a living protest, and have signs and everything. I'll still think it's stupid and attempt to prove to you that I'm correct that it's stupid and you're stupid for doing it, but you certainly have the privilege, but the fact that these groups are attempting to manipulate or force Bioware to alter their content is silly. It's mostly Bioware's fault for acknowledging you idiots at all.
Demanding that a content creator change their content to suit their needs is incorrect. It's wrong.
(BTW, the Burke quote isn't his either. It's an old mis-attribute.)
Eisenhower's is more metaphoricals and changing the nouns won't work so you have to figure that one out yourself. To help though, it basically means settling for crappy writing in games will make them never live up to art. So the artistic integrity claim is in vain.
See, Eisenhower's privilege is life [he's talking about the sacrifice of soldiers] and his principle is freedom. Your privilege is apathy and your principle is self-entitlement.
Somehow, I don't think you're in the right ballpark, and to draw this incredibly silly parallel just shows how self-entitled and incorrect you are. The only freedom being repressed is the Bioware ME3's production and writing team's freedom to produce what they choose to. You're no better then some self-entitled brat on My Super Sweet 16 who throws a tantrum because the Escalade they received was blue and obviously red is your favorite color and how could Bioware possibly do this to you! I mean, it isn't like they didn't know you wanted Shepard to live and just because they spent like twenty thousand labor hours going over every detail doesn't mean they shouldn't have been thinking of your needs and you needed a red one!
It's this type of delusional thinking that seems to be ruining not just geek society but society in general. You did nothing to contribute to this, nothing to help, but since it's not exactly what you want, your rights were violated.
Reality check: No. They were not.
I think you need to learn what the word protest means. People did sit-ins by telling business owners who would sit at their counters. Rosa Park told the bus who would sit in the front seat. Now, calm down because I can see you ripping hair out at your computer screen. Protest does not mean just picket. It means actively try to change something through words or actions. This is a protest.
When did I imply otherwise? What I said was that your rights weren't violated. Having the game be exactly what you want isn't a violation of your rights. It's not a social justice issue. BTW, nice attempt to draw some silly parallel between yourselves and the people in Selma and Montgomery. You keep believing that. YOU SHALL OVERCOOOOOME! YOU SHALL OVERCOOOOOME!
Do you ever take a moment, step back, and realize how absolutely f*cking silly you sound? You've connected your disagreement with game designers over the end to a video game to the Montgomery Bus Boycott and counter sit-ins in Selma. You've connected that fact that Bioware made something you didn't like to the tyranny of the Axis powers in WW2. Do you seriously view yourself as some sort of videogame forum Aung San Suu Kyi, fighting against the tyranny of the evil Bioware? Do you draw little pencil mustaches on pictures of Casey Hudson?
Sometimes, I'm mindboggled by just how bats**t crazy your position has become.
You don't have the right to tell content creators what to do.
Yeah, I do. They have the right to ignore it. It's called the first amendment.
Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase. You don't have the right to expect them to do it. You can feel aggrieved if you want to, but that doesn't make them ignoring you wrong.
I am not honored that the employees at Bioware wrote me a story that ends with the skill of a 9th grader. There are continuity holes, contrived plot devices, and contradicting themes to the entire script of the past 100+ hours. YOU might feel honored for Bioware's tablescraps of junk writing but I am not. See, when I do a crappy job at my job, well, I actually don't get paid. (Sales)
Ah. Now we get to the heart of darkness, and it's still so self-entitled, petty, and stupid as ever. Did you play 3 all the way through? How long did you put in...50 hours? 60 hours? More? How much multiplayer have you played? How much actual value did you get from this game? A hundred+ hours?
What I love is the "tablescraps" argument, like you have any idea how ridiculously difficult it is to do anything in game design. The single player script to GTA IV is about a foot to 4 inches thick in legal paper. It's over 1800 pages. That game didn't have multiple threads, had very little choices besides what order you did stuff. GTA's only reference each other in callbacks and shoutouts, so there's no continuity to maintain. BTW, IV had several repeat conversations. So Mass Effect's script was what...3000 pages? More? It had to maintain continuity while telling a seperate story, resolve dozens cf character arcs and conflicts, and end in a way that both maintained the theme of sacrifice while simultaneously showing hope.
Have you ever coded a game engine? Designed anything with the X-Box SDK or PS3 kit or Windows SDK? Tried to port between them? Made functional netcode?
Ever done fluid 3-d animation? Translated mocap to faces? Built an enemy instruction set?
Ever done anything besides complain? To even remotely suggest that they shortchanged you is the height of self-entitlement. You couldn't do any part of what they did. Not a single thing. To suggest that your capable of doing any part of this as well or better then they did is egregious. To suggest that you could write a better script, or that some ninth grader could, or that you could even write a better ending is delusional.
More importantly, the view that the game is crappy is yours. The view that they gave you any less then their best effort is yours.
However, other jobs you are held accountable by other measures. If you market a product and sell something else to the people who want what was marketed and there is no refunds, I definitely think the developer should be held accountable for that. Due to current loopholes, they were able to slide out from underneath it. They could legally have made the game completely about something else. Shepard could have actually fought off the Kindle Monkeys of Zart and not the reapers, just ditch them entirely and they wouldn't have been held liable. The FTC report is actually still under investigation but few suspect anything will ever come of it for those reasons. A loophole saved Bioware from 3rd party interference.
You want to know why - the didn't commit fraud. The Federal Trade Commission won't find anything because there's nothing to find. You don't have a right to define what things mean. Your choices did affect your experience and outcome. More importantly, the Government has no more right then you do to sanction a content creator for how they chose to create their content. BioWare has the right to full creative control over their products. This wasn't a loophole. It's the truth.
If you want, go consult a lawyer and try to get Casey or Mac sued for fraud or false representation. I'd really enjoy watching you guys waste your money to get laughed out of court, the same way that FTC investigation is going to get summarily dismissed.
Now you know how I feel when Bioware's PR soldiers use the words "artistic integrity" in their defense.
You seem to think Bioware said "This final installment will be epic" and I didn't like it and now I am pissed off. That's an ignorant claim for you to make considering how much information is out there.
Quit telling me what I seem to think. I seem to think that you apparently believe that once Bioware said "there won't be some choice of three pronged choice" that it's immutable, and that they're never allowed to change their mind or do anything different. I seem to think that you think that because you didn't get exactly what you expected or interpreted that somehow they're wrong and you're right. This is the exact opposite of the truth.
You bought a game. You played it for over four days. You expected something from the ending. You didn't get it and you didn't like that fact. So you and all your similar little buddies went off the rails declaring that Bioware lied to you. Personally, I think it was a bad idea to comment on product that was unfinished, but you've come up with this believe that once a content creator says something that they're not allowed to change their mind. More importantly, you believe that you're entitled to some sort of compensation for the ending not being what you wanted and feeling like you were lied to.
Now that's self-entitled. You want to be paid because you didn't like something and they made you feel bad. Nevermind that you got a hundred plus hours of entertainment and the work of thousands of man hours of the finest writers, producers, animators, artists, motion capture spcialist and voice actors for $60. You need something more, and you'll complain and complain and complain until you get it. I fully expect one of mental cases to file a lawsuit. Because you didn't like a video game's ending and it made you feel bad. How utterly and completely representative of how sick the thought processes of people actually are.
And you should definitely petition your senator. Casey Hudson lied to you. How dare he! How dare he not give away information about his ending, and gasp, to deliberately misinform you! It's SHAMEFUL.
I'm not really going to respond to this. It's actually getting too late to really process this anymore. I just like how you're the generic hyperbolic person I was mocking. You truly believe a game designer waxing hyperbolic or deliberately misinforming users about the nature of the ending to keep it secret is grounds for some sort of lawsuit or federal investigation. You'd actually find it justifiable that Casey or Mac be fined or the company be fined or sanctioned because you didn't like the ending of the game and it made you feel bad.
The fact that any rational human beings who understand concepts would side with an argument this stupid and self-entitled hurts me. It genuinely makes me wonder if I'm the only sane person in the room. This is NOT important. You are not special. You are not entitled to anything other then what Bioware wanted to give you. You are not entitled to compensation, either by subjugating the rights of the original authors and having the game altered at the whims of the mob or financially or otherwise.
IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU. I keep saying this to mock people who are so self-entitled that can't even think straight, but in this case, I am speaking to you - the person who uses the handle "savagezion". I am not talking in general, I am speaking directly to you. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU.
Meh, sticks and stones.[/quote]
You know, I know that this argument will die and these poor little electrons will just fade away, but I genuinely hope at some point you spend some time in a place where you don't have rights, or meet someone who genuinely sacrificed his privileges for his principles. I hope you at some point you gain some understanding of what these things you attribute to yourself at whim truly and completely mean. You've spent this whole time complaining that you didn't get what you deserved, maybe you should spend an hour at a VA hospital and see what people are like who didn't deserve what they got. It might put the false suffering that overwhelms you at the tragedy of your personal dislike of the ending of a video game up against some real actual suffering and maybe make it seem as small as it actually is.
I hope that it bursts your bubble and you realize just how petty and self-entitled it is to demand that art meet your standards and expectations, regardless of how those standards and expectations were derived, and just how sick it is to try and force artists to meet your personal standards either by manipulation or brute mob force.
Maybe if you actually sacrificed some time, or saw what sacrifice really and truly means, it might give you some perspective on the meaning of the end of ME3 as well.
I've wasted more then enough time on this. You really weren't the sole cause of this - I don't personally dislike you. I just reached a point where I couldn't stand to listen to it any longer without speaking out. As a content creater (I'm a writer), the thought of having the masses attempt to influence or dictate terms on my creative process is repulsive. I consult readers as part of my process and I value their opinions and feedback as part of my editing and rewriting process, but that's it. My work is my own, regardless of how liked or reviled it is. The belief that one day I could have a publisher come back and expect revisions after completion based on how many cupcakes they received, or negative twitter comments bothers me. The fact that Bioware may cave to this offends me. The fact that society has fallen to the point where a modern day Van Gogh, or Moliere, or Dickens could produce a work, and the masses , instead of just having opinions would decide that their opinions carry so much weight that they could or should somehow attempt to force an alteration of their master level work saddens me.
