Why illegalizing guns will not work in the U.S

[ICantBelieveItGoesBoom]

The only way to go about this is to edge it in with steps that are really obviously the right thing to do.

For example, banning of sale of assault rifles with automatic or semi-automatic firing capabilities or anything absolutely insane. 'Oh you need that fully automatic M16 with attachable grande launcher for hunting do you? Well in that case I have bad news for you, you are the worst fucking hunter in history'

Next, since apparently, if you go by the arguments that guns are needed for self-defence, then you don't really need to take them out of the house do you, surely? And if you do, then why concealed? I'd say it's pretty obvious that if it's for self-defence then it doesn't need to be concealed, if you have a visible gun then no one's going to fuck with you. So ban carrying concealed firearms.

It's just babysteps like this that you need to do in order to stop the senseless death that's going on in what its inhabitants think is the best country on Earth. I still can't believe that America runs its country on a 200 yearo ld document.

 

[the clockmaker]

To be honest, I'm not sure how the US can do this but a few things that couldn't hurt, note that these are all very long term and incredibly expensive, but when ISAF pulls out of Afghan, you have a lot of manpower, experience in nation building and the removal of the other long term expensive project
1- Increase police engagement in the community, it is a lot harder to see them as evil oppressors when it is joe from down the street.
2- Make attempts to increase community cohesion, maybe through local area projects on the suburb level. I dunno this isn't my area of expertise.
3- Shift the image of the US military into one as peacekeepers and builders. This does not nessecitate getting rid of the big stick, only that they are seen to be a force of construction as well as one of destruction. You can see this in Australia, where service in Rwanda and Timor is highly respected and a lot of what you see in the papers is grinning engineers building school buildings in disaster areas, this can also be followed on in country, with US troops being used more extensively for disaster relief. A follow on from this will be a highly visible positive effect that the government has on people's lives while also diminishing the 'super badass M4 w. holographic sight and underslung 203' effect.
4- Make classes on the responsibility of holding a weapon a condition of keeping that weapon, focus on that weapon's effect on others and ensure that you have a visible police element involved.

That's really all I have for now, but it is really a focus on Education to ward against the 'threats' these people think their facing, Engagement so people see themselves as part of the community and not against it and a efforts to make the gun seem less cool. I don't have any answers as this is more outside my field of knowledge, but there all I know is that there needs to be a concerted, non-judgemental and non hostile effort to shift the culture away from gun worship.

My new favorite Escapist.

Whilst certainly difficult, I believe that Clockwork's argument demonstrates that limiting weaponry is indeed possible in the long-term. Therefore in response to the OP, yes, making guns immediately illegal would certainly be impossible, but it certainly might be possible to limit/change gun circulation and policy through the sorts of cultural manipulation that America has already put into place overseas. Something of a long-term 'Hearts and Minds' strategy might change public thought and reduce the chance of such shootings happening in future.

It is possible, but it'd be a hard road to take - yet probably beneficial for America.

Spoiler: Captcha

Gung ho.

Thanks very much mate, if ISAF can nation build in Afghan, the yanks can do it at home.
ta

 

[Blunderboy]

Sorry how am I supposed to respond when you invented the word 'illgealizing'?

 

[Mr.PlanetEater]

Banning guns won't stop psychos from going on mass rampages. You know what will? The new stopping their 24 hour a day 7 days a week coverage of the shooting, that plasters the nutjob's face all over the world essentially celebrating him in the eyes of another mentally unstable person who, instead of offing themselves in the basement of their home, thinks "Hey, I can go out on an even bigger note, and be remembered forever," before proceeding to do so.


And this is coming from someone who thinks America's current stance on guns is absolutely crazy in this day and age.

 

[Neyon]

America seems to be clinging to this idea that guns can be used for protection, which of course they cannot. The only thing that happens when civilians all run around with guns is a stupid level of criminal escelation.

This has been proven wrong time and again, but go ahead and keep living in ignorance.

It really hasn't. How about some data to back up your point rather than simply saying you have some invisible proof.

 

[Grandrogue]

Here is a big problem. The is no GUN problem in America ( as a country, may be different for some areas ). I live in Arizona, where there is VERY little gun control. If you are over 18 you can go buy a semi-automatic rifle for 500 $ with 10 minutes of paperwork. Now , does this mean I am going to go kill people with it? No. If you make guns harder to get, it just makes the common man more frustrated. If these spree killers did not use guns, it would be poison, or a bomb , or hell , a homemade flamethrower ( 40$, two hours of work, and a can of butane ). If I am a criminal and I NEED a gun, I would just go visit shady joe over on 32nd street. There are bigger problems than the guns.'

1) Media, if every spree killer is going down in history, who's the next joe who is going to be ready to kill himself in his basement because he is mentally sick/afraid of the end/anti-social/ready to die, who sees these people going out with a bang, decides "Hey, I am already going to hell, might as well top off my drink before I go!"

2) Gunz ar bad! attitude, a lot of people have the attitude that guns are nasty evil things that kill people, no, guns are inanimate objects that spit lead. Where the lead goes is not up to the gun, but who is pulling the trigger. Imagine, what if ONE person in that school was carrying a gun.

"Self-Armament is the key to a peaceful society" - Fallout New Vegas

Now, this crazy psycho asshole wants to be famous, if he goes to the school and gets shot, game over. That would probably discourage any other fame getters now wouldn't it? Now I know what this looks like "Teachers should carry guns!" no, PEOPLE should carry guns. If that is a teacher, so be it. There are plenty of concealed holsters that would stop children from gazing at the gun and drooling because they want to be call of duty rockstars.



EDIT: Stop talking about banning guns in US. Its not going to happen. If it does, I will be hiding in my house, trying not to be shot by all the rioters.

 

[Strazdas]

"Self-Armament is the key to a peaceful society" - Fallout New Vegas

your solving social problems with post apocalyptic game quotes meant as irony. i facepalmed in real life.....

 

[the clockmaker]

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Yeah, sorry if I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the government taking away my guns.

Sorry since when did the US become a Stalinist dictatorship?

Since after 9/11. American paranoia has been founded by fucking facts. SO let me go tell you what the big ole USA has been doing.
NDAA,allows anyone to be detain without trial for any length the government deemed fit.
Patriot Act, has been used to spy on Americans.
NSA, has declared America as a foreign country, which means they can spy on Americans.
There's many more where that came from. Americans don't trust their Government for a reason. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

The soviets had just had a massive civil war in which all organised resistance was crushed
The turks were fully mobilised for a war on their own territory
Germany was riding high on nationalism so the acts against the Jews actually had majority support
The chinese had suffered under years of Japanese oppression and their own civil war
Not so familiar with the history of Uganda and Guatamala so maybe somebody else can pick up on those ones
Cambodia, unstable due to being bombed to what experts would agree is a fucking insane amount
So it looks like Civil war and political instability killed those people.

Now, trust me on this, your personal firearm is not going to scare off the government in the unlikely event that they decide that you are worth rounding up. We live in a world where the foremost armies have over a decade's experience in counter insurgency. It does not matter if you have a .22 a 556 or a 762, you will last less time than the average insurgent and your family will be less likely to avenge you. Political action is far far far far far more likely to solve whatever grievence you have than getting thwacked by 25 mil as you play out whatever half-thought out red dawn plan you have. The house always wins, especially when they can kill everything you can see with less effort than your reading of this post. Your guns will not save you and in fact, will do more harm than good.

 

[freaper]

Okay, some points,
1- It is not just the UK that has banned guns, Australia,(which is roughly the same size as the US by the way) banned its guns years ago, and while the US has more people, it also has a fuckton more police, so, you know per capita versus total and all that. Germany also has much more restrictive laws without flat out banning them, so there is another option. New zealand's laws are focused on the owner rather than the object which is a further option.

2- Criminals do not obey laws, this is true and a fact that is beloved by people who drop smug macros into discussions. However, if we stop and consider the actual ramifications of this, it becomes pretty goddamn irrelevant.
- If someone has an illegal firearm, that is a crime and they can be stopped there and then as opposed to simply letting them walk on.
- It will slow down or limit the permeation of these weapons (not eliminate, no one is claiming that it will eliminate them)
- Someone who fits the profile of a spree killer (isolated, angry, feels like they have been wronged) suddenly aquiring a weapon becomes a bigger red flag and they are more likely to be stopped.
- From what I can see, it is rarely career criminals that conduct these crimes and so average joe blog on the street is unlikely to know where to get a hold of illegal assault weaponry.
- Someone who is in need of mental help, and is likely to commit violent suicide by attacking those near themselves, is less likely to have a weapon to hand when they snap.
- Criminals, are, for the most part, profit motivated human beings. Someone who is already hiding from the law is not going to assist someone who will draw attention to themselves
- Criminals are often quite reasonable and are unlikely to support the person who is likely to gun down more than a dozen children.
- Not all people who commit these crimes use their own weapons, so if their friends and family do not own them, it is harder for the criminal to obtain it.

3- There is no need to immediately ban all guns, that is impractical, what needs to happen is a staged drawdown of firearm ownership, starting with making them illegal to sell, running buybacks and making it clear that, for example, your assault rifle will be illegal in five years time, but you have five years to obtain a weapon more suitable for hunting and will be provided proper training in the storage and security of your remaining weapons.

Wow, thank you for posting this in my stead, good sir.

Now I have something to refer to whenever this topic comes up again.

 

[GLo Jones]

While banning guns would be a perfect solution in an ideal world, it simply wouldn't work in the US. Logistically it simply wouldn't be feasible enough, and given the general 'MUH FREEDOMS' attitude that plays such a heavy part in American culture, you'd simply push the sale of guns underground. I think you'd likely end up with far worse gun regulation than you already have.

 

[Strazdas]

"Self-Armament is the key to a peaceful society" - Fallout New Vegas

your solving social problems with post apocalyptic game quotes meant as irony. i facepalmed in real life.....

Actually its a reworded quote from old wild west. A very real mentality that actually worked during its time.

Towns like tombstone and other "wild" towns were actually peaceful. People took care of themselves and each other, but mostly it was themselves since "police" was just a guy with a gun. Not something that actually existed back then unless it was the East Coast.

yes, they lacked police, something we currently HAVE.

And what is the government going to do? Murder the entire country?

If they kill everyone, who will they rule over?

A king can't be a king if all his subjects are corpses. Unless he is some king of fucking necromancer.

The populace always wins, one way or the other. Because without people, there is no government.

are you implying that america is so rotten that not only the nuts but everyone will go out in riots against gun control?
With how america seems to interfere with whole world because they dont like what others do different. maybe they should be fighting thier angst inside the country instead? now i realize that you will come screaming "your telling us to murder eachother" btu id rather have you murder eachother than murder others.

 

[Xanex]

Also, this argument makes my blood boil. How hard is this to understand? It's the Nirvana Fallacy [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy] at work, and I'm sick of it. Gun laws make it harder for anyone to get their hands on them. Yes, some will slip through the net, but you can still limit the amount of gun crime significantly!

Because outlawing drugs like meth and MJ has obviously worked so well in America.

 

[Harker067]

Why illegalizing guns will not work QUICKLY in the U.S

There I fixed it for you . No honestly this isn't a problem you can solve with a silver bullet (to use a gun metaphore). There have been plenty of deeply ingrained cultural practices that we realized or are realizing are stupid and they don't go away over night but if you make small steps, build up a base and work at changing thing it can happen.