Why is "Casual" bad?

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TheDooD

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Delock said:
I truly respect where you came from and I like the artistic standpoint metaphor you used because I myself is an artist.

To me gaming is a major subculture that shouldn't be monopolized to make some greed bastards that don't care about it crazy rich. It should be about those who truly care about it no matter if they're casual, hardcore, new school, or some of the original pong players and pathfinders of the culture. Gaming should be about having fun with a great experience no matter how small or vast, instead of being a quick way to make buck.
 

GiantRaven

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Delock said:
Gaming is a subculture. It has its own music, fashion, language, "ranks", social circles, and required amount of commitment.
I'm curious. What would you say the music of videogame subculture is? What separates it from music of other subcultures?
 

Delock

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GiantRaven said:
Delock said:
Gaming is a subculture. It has its own music, fashion, language, "ranks", social circles, and required amount of commitment.
I'm curious. What would you say the music of videogame subculture is? What separates it from music of other subcultures?
The music varies between the soundtracks and remixs of games to music about gaming subculture in general.

Stuff like these
[youtube=kc9f-VVQK3k0
[MEDIA=youtube]dGvqMXYhYhU[/MEDIA]


Basically, it's about the connection to the game that makes it part of the subculture. Now, gamers themselves may listen to a wide variety of music, but the stuff that is actually part of the subculture is what is actually made for it.

It's important to note that this is a subculture that focuses less on the music as a uniting factor, as games themselves fill this role quite well.
 

DaHero

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Juk3n said:
Deus Ex is Core, thought provokingly complex and we loved it. Deus Ex Invisible War was an attempt to let go complexity in favour of including a wider audience, not content to simply supply the geeks who made the game a success in the first place.
Deus Ex: Invisible War is a prime example of what happened when PC game designers were first faced with having to design with consoles in mind and overcompensated for the limitations of the hardware. Warren Spector himself said that many of the claimed 'consolisation' problems in the game were a result of him not appreciating what consoles were capable of and, as such, should be considered 'poor design choices' rather than 'limitations of the platform'.
Couldn't we have just let the console die out, letting the PC remain the main platform for game development, and ultimately created a system where to stay in the gaming industry you had to have a job, and money...like I dunno...a normal person?

When you put it in that perspective, it's almost like consolisation, which lead to a younger and less expensive market, ultimately created the social difficulties that gamers face today.

OT: Elitist gamers don't like casual gamers because they don't understand what gamers had to go through to save the princess, stop Dr. wily, rescue the chaos emeralds, and get orange instead of lemon-lime.
 

Fern Williams

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Well I don't hate the people that play casual games. However I don't think that they really care about games as much as people that play non-casual games. Also I think it takes away from game development. Why make an amazing innovated game that takes millions of dollars to make when you can make a crappy game like farmville and make even more money? I have played a few casual games before I passed judgment on them. The only thing I saw was a waste of time out to get your money.
 

boholikeu

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GotMalkAvian said:
boholikeu said:
Woah woah, did you completely lose track of what we were talking about?

I originally said it would be cool if the whole industry became more like casual games (less of a focus on graphics, higher focus on gameplay). I never said Angry Birds has better gameplay than ME2.

Of course a game with a $40 mil budget is going to spend more money overall on gameplay than a $100,000 game. My point is, wouldn't it be great if these big budget games spent as high a proportion on gameplay as these smaller games did?
Okay. I can completely agree that some casual games are wonderful games made by talented people, and it would be great if the entire gaming industry worked by that model. However, our fear doesn't lie with Angry Birds or Minecraft, but with things like the hundreds of Farmville clones raking in ridiculous amounts of money on Facebook. A lot of casual games are designed solely to be addictive, to appeal to mass audiences, and to keep people paying tiny increments into the game for as long as possible.

I present the following cracked.com article:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

It focuses mainly on Farmville and WoW. The changes that WoW has undergone from its earliest days are showing the ear marks of casual gaming influence. The game has gotten more accessible, more demanding of time, and micro transactions have been added.
Actually, many of the "casual friendly" changes to WoW made the game less addictive:

-"Rest" XP bonus encourages players to take a break from their characters.
-Daily quests made reputation grinds less time consuming. Instead of completing a quest 100 times to reach exalted you can do it 20 times over the course of a few weeks.
-Raid lockouts, can only complete a raid in 10 or 25 man version, not both.
-Weekly caps for how many points you can earn.
-Earn rep at the same time you are earning justice/honor points.

And I don't see what's so bad about accessibility and micro transactions. In fact, accessibility is usually seen as a good thing in design.

Gralian said:
boholikeu said:
I know this post wasn't directed at me, but it touched on the indie/casual debate we were having earlier.

Based on the above it seems that you define a casual game as a game that "promotes fun above art", but wouldn't this describe most games in general? How is this hurting the video game industry?
Not that it promotes fun per se, but that it promotes simplicity. Simplicity in design and mechanics. Take the tetris example. It looks simple, the rules are simple. Make lines with the blocks with the four or five variations of block that fall down randomly. It does get more complicated the longer it goes on for, but the core design of the game is simple. Take Zuma again. All you do is match coloured balls. That's it. Your avatar does not (for the most part) move, all you do is aim the mouse and click. You match blue to blue and red to red. You get the odd powerup, but the design and execution is simplistic.

Now take Bioshock, like we discussed earlier. It's not a simple game. There's moderate exploration as you search side passages for plasmids and ammo. You have the illusion of freedom due to the nature of linearity, but you can still explore a shop or something that's off the beaten path to scavenge for supplies. The enemies behave differently. You have multiple ways to dispatch them, both in terms of guns and plasmids. But most significantly, the plasmids you choose to take with you significantly alter the way in which you play the game, enter combat, and deal with puzzles.

Both games are fun (subjective to whether the person playing them considers either one to be fun) but with one very marked difference between them. Zuma is simple, Bioshock is not.

It is this simplicity that can have an adverse effect on video games. I think the core audience craves a more complex experience. This is why copies of shooters have a 'gimmick'. The reason we have, say, the time manipulation trick in Timeshift and Singularity is because the core audience is not entirely satisfied with the bare-bones Doom 3 clone. They want something more out of it. For Halo, i would say the gimmick would be the shielding that the player and tougher enemies have. It doesn't have to be a big gimmick, but it's something that makes the game more than "pull trigger, kill enemy". Halo is not call of duty; you have to deal a lot of punishment to kill things, but you can take a lot of punishment as well. The mindset between playing Call of Duty, where few bullets can kill you online, is far removed from that of halo, where you empty a veritable barrage of bullets into each other before someone is dead.

Casual games may also have a gimmick going for them, but that is all they have going for them. Where non-casual games shine is in the ability to not rely solely on their gimmick. In the case of shooters, you have an option of various guns, you examine your environment to determine where to take cover, you decide who's a priority target. More than just the base mechanics of the game are required to fully engage the player. You may have to think five moves ahead in Tetris to avoid a game over, but you're still looking at a single screen of falling blocks. The core audience demands more than this. Diverse environments, engaging characters, and things that only outlandish production values can produce and push the boundaries of. By demanding improvement over refinement, we do not become stationary. Where i will play the devil's advocate, however, is saying that the need for refinement to please the casual audience may work in the favour of the industry as a whole. It's like an Alfa Romeo. It might be good to look at, but the car breaks down so often that it's just not practical. Casuals demand refinement, the core audience demand improvement. A balance must be sought, i think, to maintain a healthy status quo.
To reiterate my earlier point: complexity=/=depth and simplicity=/=shallowness. It's possible to have a very deep game that still very simple, and a very complex game that's very shallow.

To give you some examples, what would you consider Serious Sam to be? It's a pretty shallow shooter. Does that make it a casual game? What about games like the aforementioned Tidalis, which is very easy to pick up and understand, yet provides a lot of depth and strategy? Heck, what about the art games we talked about earlier? The Path, Braid, and Flower are all based on a small number of simple mechanics, yet you yourself said they more resembled hardcore games because of their depth. What about a game like Othello or Go, that's based on one REALLY simple mechanic and yet is very difficult to master.

Again, I think there are far too many exceptions to make a generalized statement like "Casual games are anti-intellectual".

Xzi said:
boholikeu said:
Woah woah, did you completely lose track of what we were talking about?

I originally said it would be cool if the whole industry became more like casual games (less of a focus on graphics, higher focus on gameplay). I never said Angry Birds has better gameplay than ME2.

Of course a game with a $40 mil budget is going to spend more money overall on gameplay than a $100,000 game. My point is, wouldn't it be great if these big budget games spent as high a proportion on gameplay as these smaller games did?
Maybe. There's really no reason to move backwards, though. There's nobody stopping any particular developer from creating a game with an incredible story, great graphics, and excellent gameplay. We can have everything, so why ask for anything less?
Actually there is: budgets. Games already cost in the tens of millions to produce, and much of that is going to graphics. We wouldn't be "going backward" by focusing more on gameplay for a while.

Manji187 said:
It's bad because in the end it's an influence that "pulls down" instead of "lifts up": less depth, less immersion, less reflective thinking.

Sure, you can still have fun with some of those games....but they won't make you cry, or reflect on what it means to be a human being.

Simple fast fun is easy...it's the short, broad, flat, well-traveled road whereas that what truly matters, what has actual meaning...that is the long, steep, narrow, winding and a lot less-traveled one.
Like many others here I think you are confusing casual games with shovelware. To reiterate a point I made to someone else: simple =/= shallow.
 

thirdsonsaburo

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Here's the thing, Adrian: It isn't. There is nothing inherently wrong with casual games. They are a bad fit for a lot of people, but a great fit for others.

It's just that most of the people they mesh poorly with are the ones who have things to say about the video game industry. Hardcore gamers are outspoken, they are miffed at games that are for another demographic doing so well and pushing out (to a degree, most notable in the case of Nintendo) less-profitable but more appealing (to them) games, they get vocal about it.

There's also the problem that casual games see a lot of repetitive shovelware, because they're profitable, and casual gamers aren't as discriminating in what they buy as hardcore gamers are, since it's an activity or a toy to them, not a hobby.

But casual isn't bad! It just isn't for a lot of us, and more for people like our kid siblings, or grandparents, or our parents.
 

The Sandvich

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I really like casual gamers. They're the kind of people that are turning video games into a mainstream media. Would you rather there only be hardcore games, and the common non video game player think "Wow, you guys really have no life if you play video games"
 

veloper

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The Sandvich said:
I really like casual gamers. They're the kind of people that are turning video games into a mainstream media. Would you rather there only be hardcore games, and the common non video game player think "Wow, you guys really have no life if you play video games"
Sure.
What other people think is unimportant. Are you really so insecure you need acceptance from non-gamers, to play games?
Wouldn't you rather play better games?
 

The Sandvich

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veloper said:
Are you really so insecure you need acceptance from non-gamers, to play games?
Wouldn't you rather play better games?
I would rather video games be noticed as a competent medium

"Better" is your opinion. I happen to like casual games. Do I think they're better than hardcore games? No, but they're not any worse either. They're just games marketed towards a difference audience. Not better or worse
 

veloper

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The Sandvich said:
veloper said:
Are you really so insecure you need acceptance from non-gamers, to play games?
Wouldn't you rather play better games?
I would rather video games be noticed as a competent medium

"Better" is your opinion. I happen to like casual games. Do I think they're better than hardcore games? No, but they're not any worse either. They're just games marketed towards a difference audience. Not better or worse
It's not wrong to enjoy casual games.
What is a shame is that the industry is making fewer challenging or deep games than before.
The core audience hasn't suddenly fallen of the face of the earth and yet almost everything gets simplified for a different audience.
One size fits all. It doesn't have to be this way.
 

The Sandvich

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I agree that they shouldn't have handled it the way they did, but at least they've finally convinced the general public that video games aren't "murder simulators" or that they "rot your brain" or whatever they thought previously. They could've handled it better, yes, but not everyone is perfect, and it wasn't even all bad
 

Unspeakable

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Casual Gamers are harmless. Retarded, but harmless.

Anyone who is an advocate of casual gaming, try this neat little trick: Set up your webcam to record your face while you're playing a "casual game." Then do it, for as long as you like. Come back the next day, and watch the recording of your face while you were playing your casual game. If you played JewelQuest for two hours, try and force yourself to watch the whole thing. The further in you go, the better it gets.
 

boholikeu

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veloper said:
The Sandvich said:
veloper said:
Are you really so insecure you need acceptance from non-gamers, to play games?
Wouldn't you rather play better games?
I would rather video games be noticed as a competent medium

"Better" is your opinion. I happen to like casual games. Do I think they're better than hardcore games? No, but they're not any worse either. They're just games marketed towards a difference audience. Not better or worse
It's not wrong to enjoy casual games.
What is a shame is that the industry is making fewer challenging or deep games than before.
The core audience hasn't suddenly fallen of the face of the earth and yet almost everything gets simplified for a different audience.
One size fits all. It doesn't have to be this way.
Honestly, the industry might be making less challenging games, but I think it's still proportionate to the number of people that actually like challenging games. Only 3% of players completed a L4D2 campaign on the hardest difficulty. Only 1% completed Mass Effect 2 on it's hardest difficulty.

Can you honestly say you are short on really difficult games to play? If so, I envy the amount of free time you have because it seems to me that there are plenty of challenging games out there to keep one interested, even if you limit yourself to just one genre.

Also, I don't really think there are less deep games than there were before. As I mentioned above, it's perfectly possible for a game to be both casual and deep at the same time.
 

Candidus

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Gralian said:
We're losing our Wuthering Heights and our Charge of the Light Brigade for, dare i say, the video game equivalent of the Twilight franchise.
This is precisely it.

Supreme Commander 2 is to Supreme Commander 1 what Jackass The Movie is to Inception.

Supreme Commander 1 was abandoned by casuals- whom I don't blame, you can't play what you don't enjoy. Still, casuals are the overwhelming majority and Supcom FA retained only a small, loyal fanbase who prized its complexity and high bar of entry.

Supreme Commander 2 releases, and it's basically a simplified, grey, formless mass of babbies first RTS. It was made easier (speaking mainly about economy) to cater for those who got frustrated, threw a tantrum and quit its predecessor. The game was made with *them* in mind, instead of those who'd loved the original.

We don't actually hate casuals, although we sometimes lose our temper with them when they're right in front of us, demonstrating the traits that are eroding the quality and depth of our favourite medium's offerings generation on generation. What we hate is that there are more of them than there are of us, and the economics of this situation means we're powerless to save gaming from continued simplification.
 

maxibonito

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okay, here's where i'm confused. What makes a casual gamer? someone who doesn't have a 'hardcore' console, like PS3 or xbox360? someone who plays farmville or another kind of facebook game? someone who plays the Wii more often than anyother console?

Because from my experience as a young gamer growing up i have experienced many differint meanings of it, and thus think that there should be no line seperating a 'casual' gamer and a 'hardcore' gamer.
 

Candidus

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maxibonito said:
okay, here's where i'm confused. What makes a casual gamer? someone who doesn't have a 'hardcore' console, like PS3 or xbox360? someone who plays farmville or another kind of facebook game? someone who plays the Wii more often than anyother console?

Because from my experience as a young gamer growing up i have experienced many differint meanings of it, and thus think that there should be no line seperating a 'casual' gamer and a 'hardcore' gamer.
I'm sorry, but trying to pretend there is no line here is like trying to pretend that people don't actually come in different colours.

I'll try to give you some examples of casual behaviours, preferences and game types:

A Casual will abandon a game which excludes those who cannot grasp complex mechanics (Supcom)
A Casual prefers to already know the controls of a brand new game; ideally, all games control alike. Perky annual IPs and most indy games are a good example.
A Casual plays for achievements, for gamerscore, for the DING-YAY rush. Not specifically to achieve a high standard of ability. EDIT: this often means there's a low skill ceiling; maximum aptitude is controlled in some way or another- WoW is a great example, as a game which controls the maximum contribution of individuals to fights using time (GCD), automatic targetting and so on as equalizing measures.


A game made for a casual is going to have a hard time appealing to me. That implies there's a pretty big difference. It's not just about taste, it's about wanting totally different things from the same medium which cannot usually be supplied to both parties by the same game. It's a value divide- actually, it's a canyon.

The more publishers make games for casuals, the fewer are going to be made for core gamers. This isn't a speculation of the future either, that's what is actually happening already, right now.
 

maxibonito

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well, what makes a hardcore gamer so differint to a casual gamer? i know loads of hardcore gamers who play for gamerscore, not for the actual game.