Well, understand that magic and technology are usually plot devices when they show up in a story, and because their purpose is basically to enable suspension of disbelief of characters with what are essentially superpowers. Tony Stark gets his superpowers from advanced technology, and Harry gets his from magic. They both have the ability to do the same things: they both fly, they both shoot lightning and fire, etc. So there's no need for a character to have both sci-fi powers and magic powers when they both work equally well as plot devices.
An exception could be Warhammer 40,000, but I'm not sure if that can be fully called magic since it's supposed to be thoroughly explained by the science in the story.
Nimzabaat said:
Also, wizards who interact with muggles regularly would know what a gun is and the (minimal, compared to a wand) danger that it represents.
I don't know. In the third book an article on Sirius Black in the Daily Prophet says that "A gun is a bit like a metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other". Considering that they have to give such a simple explanation suggests that very few wizards regularly interact with muggles enough to understand what a gun is.
Not going to touch the OP as others have already given the examples I would have (Discworld, Warcraft), but I will say that I was always very confused about the extent of the Wizarding world's unfamiliarity with Muggle tech. It'd make perfect sense if they were an overwhelmingly pureblood society, but it's made very clear that they're not. In fact, there's only a tiny handful of "pure" families left. That being the case, the overwhelming majority of wizards and witches must have at least one Muggle relative (either through blood or marriage), and all but the most zealous fanatics are probably going to have friends who are Muggle-born. Plus it's supposed to be pretty common for witches/wizards to marry Muggles (and so by extension have Muggle friends). In fact, they often have to masquerade as Muggles day to day - not all wizards and witches live in dedicated towns like Hogsmeade, after all. They really ought to be at least partially familiar with the basics.
I don't know. In the third book an article on Sirius Black in the Daily Prophet says that "A gun is a bit like a metal wand that Muggles use to kill each other". Considering that they have to give such a simple explanation suggests that very few wizards regularly interact with muggles enough to understand what a gun is.
Fair point. Though in the same vein, would a soldier take a guy or girl in a robe waving a stick as a threat? He doesn't know that it's a stick that can wipe out his entire squad.
Actually considering that quote... the only logical reason that they would have to give such a simple explanation for a gun is that conventional weapons are completely harmless to wizards (it was already mentioned that non-magical fire was harmless). If something is dangerous to you, you'd know what it is, but if it wasn't it would have to be explained. I'd never really given that enough thought before.
Magic and science can/do exist depending on your world views/fantasy setting. Simply science is the mastery of magic and magic is the mastery of science. It is a harmonic balance to the universe like light and dark. They can be blended and separate but on cannot exist without the other.
What I´m more intersted in is why magic never takes science´s place? I would think that people living in a medievalish setting would maybe think about other things to do with this here magical power than kill people with it and/or use it to prevent others from killing them. Sometimes they will experiment weird ass things for no reason. No wizard ever seems to think "Hmm, I have a power source of unimaginable proportions here. Maybe I should use this to power transportation, help grow crops, heal the sick, light the streets and warm houses."
Look at real-life alchemists. Their chief goals were to get rich and live forever. The thing you're missing is that people in medievalish times were - by and large - assholes. A fellow with unimaginable power sits on a throne and frequently picks fights with other people with unimaginable power. The only reason to do any of that helpful stuff would be so that you could shove in your rivals faces how much awesomer your capital is than theirs'.
One of the chief problems of fantasy literature is that characters are given the thought patterns of modern day civic-minded Republic-dwelling citizens. Back in the day, people casually expressed greedy, cynicism, and cruelty in ways virtually unimaginable today. The specific answer to your challenge is that, even if someone suggested it to your powerful individual, their response would be, "Why should I bother? What is the suffering of others to me?" and/or "If I make others strong, how can I rule them?"
Magic (at least magic coming out of cosmologies based on medieval European mythology) and technology don't get along because they're politically opposing systems.
Technology is egalitarian. I build a crossbow, and it doesn't matter who I give it to, it's always going to function exactly the same. It's a democracy where everyone has equal potential. Magic, however, is elitist. Most people can't use it- otherwise we wouldn't think of it as magic. Only special people can use it, and though these people may spend their lives studying to master it, the initial gift doesn't come from their effort, but their birthright to be magical. It's called "the gift", because it's a destiny granted by forces beyond human comprehension that is not given equally to all people. Magic then is a kind of monarchy, or a system where certain people are better than others because of their birth, and not because of any meaningful choice they've made.
Now, I'd wager that 90% of writers don't even think about this dichotomy. But subconsciously, they have to be aware of it. Harry Potter wouldn't be half so compelling if every Johnny 6-pack on his street was equally capable of magic. And so that subconscious conflict inevitably becomes literary conflict. We all secretly wish to be the chosen one who is better than everyone else without having to put in the work to be that person. But in the end, we all know that wish is incompatible with the modern world we live in.
Fascinating view point. I had never considered such a thing.
The Harry Potter thing is largely a problem confined to the movies, specifically from Half Blood Prince onward because at the start the Death Eaters destroy the Millennium Bridge - a target explicitly outside their own territory (as it were) and an act after which there is no good reason for the Prime Minister NOT to engage MI5 and then shove the S.A.S. up their arse with extreme prejudice. The books from memory do not include such an attack, since the bridge wasn't built when they were written, and because it was stupid.
Guns would work fine in the Harry Potter universe. It's electricity that has problems around areas with large amounts of magic.
There's a multitude of reasons why no one uses them in the HP universe. Murder is illegal and wands are infinitely more useful. If you're carrying a gun you'd be pretty fucked when you came across a Dementor for example. Plus the vast majority of people need to carry wands to perform any sort of magic, like Apparating.
There's also the fact that most things Muggles do are relatively unknown to the wizarding world, or looked upon with curiosity or just plain indifference. Harry Potter lived in a country where guns are so illegal that even Muggles don't carry or care for them.
I'd like to add on that in one of the movies, there is a male wizard wandlessly stirring his coffee without using his hands while reading Stephen Hawking books.
Perhaps, in the time we've seen/read about the books the two worlds are only just now combining and beginning to trade items and such?
I'd like to add on that in one of the movies, there is a male wizard wandlessly stirring his coffee without using his hands while reading Stephen Hawking books.
Perhaps, in the time we've seen/read about the books the two worlds are only just now combining and beginning to trade items and such?
given that the films went through some many directors there are bound to be inconsistencies, theres nothing stopping a wizard checking out some muggle literature
its funny that even though the wizards veiw the muggles with disdain at worst and indifference at best their society is stagnant and racist and their government corrupt.....a cracked article point out just how many jobs actually are there in wizard society? they don't have many skills outside of magic and the goblins own the finance industry...so if they cant function at all in the human world....its I think one of those logical oversights
as much as it would suck to be a squib in the HP universe at least youll get a proper muggle education and in some ways get the benefits of both worlds (well SOME ways...you might end up like Filtch who is just about the most miserable son of a ***** in all of fiction..having to play handyman to a bunch of over acheiving kids...Hagrids a bit similar but at least he got a better job...hey shouldn't they have re-enstated his wizard status after they found out he wasnt the cause of those deaths in chamber of secrets? probably an oversight!)
What I´m more intersted in is why magic never takes science´s place? I would think that people living in a medievalish setting would maybe think about other things to do with this here magical power than kill people with it and/or use it to prevent others from killing them. Sometimes they will experiment weird ass things for no reason. No wizard ever seems to think "Hmm, I have a power source of unimaginable proportions here. Maybe I should use this to power transportation, help grow crops, heal the sick, light the streets and warm houses."
Look at real-life alchemists. Their chief goals were to get rich and live forever. The thing you're missing is that people in medievalish times were - by and large - assholes. A fellow with unimaginable power sits on a throne and frequently picks fights with other people with unimaginable power. The only reason to do any of that helpful stuff would be so that you could shove in your rivals faces how much awesomer your capital is than theirs'.
One of the chief problems of fantasy literature is that characters are given the thought patterns of modern day civic-minded Republic-dwelling citizens. Back in the day, people casually expressed greedy, cynicism, and cruelty in ways virtually unimaginable today. The specific answer to your challenge is that, even if someone suggested it to your powerful individual, their response would be, "Why should I bother? What is the suffering of others to me?" and/or "If I make others strong, how can I rule them?"
Magic (at least magic coming out of cosmologies based on medieval European mythology) and technology don't get along because they're politically opposing systems.
Technology is egalitarian. I build a crossbow, and it doesn't matter who I give it to, it's always going to function exactly the same. It's a democracy where everyone has equal potential. Magic, however, is elitist. Most people can't use it- otherwise we wouldn't think of it as magic. Only special people can use it, and though these people may spend their lives studying to master it, the initial gift doesn't come from their effort, but their birthright to be magical. It's called "the gift", because it's a destiny granted by forces beyond human comprehension that is not given equally to all people. Magic then is a kind of monarchy, or a system where certain people are better than others because of their birth, and not because of any meaningful choice they've made.
Now, I'd wager that 90% of writers don't even think about this dichotomy. But subconsciously, they have to be aware of it. Harry Potter wouldn't be half so compelling if every Johnny 6-pack on his street was equally capable of magic. And so that subconscious conflict inevitably becomes literary conflict. We all secretly wish to be the chosen one who is better than everyone else without having to put in the work to be that person. But in the end, we all know that wish is incompatible with the modern world we live in.
What if the system becomes "all can learn magic but at the cost of something"? A few anime I know have this concept: magic requires a tribute of either a loved one, your happiness, extreme amount of time and devotion, or your life. It fits into both systems you stated: it functions the same for everyone who knows of it but only those who put in the work or tribute can use it.
Also, I always preferred magic like in the Index/Railgun series in which they draw magic power from something called idol theory [http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Idol_Theory]. The basic premise of idol theory is that a magician draws power from a myth, legend or even angel/god and gains a portion of their abilities. An example in this world is the existence of "saints". By the logic of this world, man was made in the image of god, Saints are a stronger replica of god and so can draw some of Jesus's abilities.
P.S. yeah, the Index series and it's concept of magic is weird, convoluted and can lead to extremely overpowered characters but it's fun
And fine, gun powder doesn't work, well there are all these magical chemical reactions (Poitions), can one really not somehow mix something together that can create the small explosion to shoot the bullet? I think the advantage of this is obvious, you wouldn't have to yell "OBLITERATE!" or whatever before you attack giving your opponent time to counter attack. Furthermore they'd be all "OBLI-Ack!" because you just shot them in the throat.
I kind of agree. I always thought that most problems in the Potterverse could be resolved with "Accio Kalashnikov".
Failing that, "accio flamethrower/grenade launcher". Or if you're fighting something really big, "accio FV107 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV107_Scimitar]".
A real life weapon can't do as much as a wand, but it's very, very good at killing stuff. And most wizards (not to mention aggressive flora and fauna) wouldn't have a clue how to stop it. From what I remember they don't really have forcefields or shields except to stop other spells, and even if they did they'd have to use a spell or gesture or wave to activate it before the first bullet hit them.
There's some stuff that they'd be useless against, but at least half the predicaments the protagonists get into would be solved immediately by a gun.
Big 3 headed dog? Bullets. Dead.
Giant chess set? Grenade. Dead.
Big fucking flaily tree? Flamethrower. Dead.
Possessed teacher? One bullet. Dead
Big spiders? More bullets. Dead.
Giant snakes? Even more bullets. Dead. Can't look at it directly because of deathly gaze? Video camera/gunsight/NOD. Aim for eyes first. Dead.
Big bad nemesis wizard? Unsuspecting headshot from 800m away with a big bloody rifle. Dead.
The Harry Potter thing is largely a problem confined to the movies, specifically from Half Blood Prince onward because at the start the Death Eaters destroy the Millennium Bridge - a target explicitly outside their own territory (as it were) and an act after which there is no good reason for the Prime Minister NOT to engage MI5 and then shove the S.A.S. up their arse with extreme prejudice. The books from memory do not include such an attack, since the bridge wasn't built when they were written, and because it was stupid.
It was mentioned in the books that a bridge had been destroyed. Also...the wizards can turn themselves invisible to muggle, and take over their minds. The SAS would have trouble. OTOH, nothing stopping the wizards from getting pointers from the SAS in not being useless.
DANGER- MUST SILENCE said:
Magic (at least magic coming out of cosmologies based on medieval European mythology) and technology don't get along because they're politically opposing systems.
Technology is egalitarian. I build a crossbow, and it doesn't matter who I give it to, it's always going to function exactly the same. It's a democracy where everyone has equal potential. Magic, however, is elitist. Most people can't use it- otherwise we wouldn't think of it as magic. Only special people can use it, and though these people may spend their lives studying to master it, the initial gift doesn't come from their effort, but their birthright to be magical. It's called "the gift", because it's a destiny granted by forces beyond human comprehension that is not given equally to all people. Magic then is a kind of monarchy, or a system where certain people are better than others because of their birth, and not because of any meaningful choice they've made.
Now, I'd wager that 90% of writers don't even think about this dichotomy. But subconsciously, they have to be aware of it. Harry Potter wouldn't be half so compelling if every Johnny 6-pack on his street was equally capable of magic. And so that subconscious conflict inevitably becomes literary conflict. We all secretly wish to be the chosen one who is better than everyone else without having to put in the work to be that person. But in the end, we all know that wish is incompatible with the modern world we live in.
That's an interesting point. Hadn't thought of it before, but yeah, certainly a disturbing amount of elitism in fantasy.
...
Anyway, back in the day they didn't seem to have such a big divide, and even nowdays you have people crossing the two.
You have Conan the Barbarian fighting monsters that just happened to evolve before humans and devolve once their water system was polluted. You had D&D elves that saw in the IR range, and so on. IMHO, this makes things much more interesting than "a wizard did it".
For me, one of the reasons I find this jarring is that it's so lazy. So many writers want to jump at the "no tech" (or at least "no guns") thing, without thinking of the implications.
For example, in the Mortal Implements series, it's said the Nephilim don't use guns, because being near a demon stops them from working. Ok, fine...but how near? Is the range at which they stop working less than the range of a rifle? For that matter, why is it just bullet propellant...if nothing else ignited near demons, that'd actually be interesting. But not, everything is the same, only no guns or electricity, and no electricity isn't an issue for some reason.[footnote]Having said that, the series includes a sawn off shotgun, which turns out to be pump action and fires bullets. Yes, I know, not necessarily wrong, but could do with some rewording[/footnote]
Similarly, in the Vampire Academy series, it's said that guns don't have the oomph to harm Strigoi, you need to stick a magic silver stake in their heart[footnote]Points to the author, she points out that the heart isn't where pop culture says it is, and the human body is designed to make stabbing people in the heart difficult[/footnote]. This is shown by a gun only slightly harming one. Specifically, a handgun. They don't think to try .50BMG rounds. They don't even have flamethrowers, given that fire also kills them.
Now, Roger Zelazny's Amber series plays with this. You've got your magic place where bullet propellants don't work, and everyone knows they don't work. Only, someone finds something else that would work as a propellant, keeps this information to himself, and later goes and talks to a modern weapons manufacturer, who is very confused as to why he wants bullets that won't work (where they are). However, even if bullets don't work, airguns like the wind rifle still would.
...
Also annoys me when you have your stock not!Tolkien setting. What happens in 1,000 years time, when the elves are still using the same technology, but the dwarfs and humans and orcs are building tanks and racing each other to the moon?
IMHO, the more science there is in fantasy, the better. If people are going to research, say, sword fighting or archery, why not architecture or geology or metallurgy? Now, you don't have to do this for your story, but it helps to make it seem "believable" if you do.
Also annoys me when you have your stock not!Tolkien setting. What happens in 1,000 years time, when the elves are still using the same technology, but the dwarfs and humans and orcs are building tanks and racing each other to the moon?
I think this comes from bad writers failing to capture the idea that these species should have mindsets alien to each other. When all the fantasy races think and act too much like people then it doesn't make sense to see them be trapped in their fantasy trope. I call it "the elven diet plan", especially with regard to fan-fiction writers who basically just write a character who is an author insert who thinks and acts just like the author imagines themself to, but who is an elf to make them supernaturally slender and beautiful. When fantasy races are suitably alien in thought process that to some extent they make the human reader uncomfortable, then these races not acting like we see humans in history acting makes more sense.
Yes...though I'd question if they necessarily should have such different mindsets (excepting those that live for thousands of years, but then the same could be applied to vampires and so on) anyway. Treating them as just another race of humans (though lots of different mindsets there) would work for me (if done well), but would be very different from what is currently supposed to happen.
Assuming that they did, they should work very differently to random other nations, yes.
DANGER- MUST SILENCE said:
One of the things I'd like to see more is science approached from a mindset analogous to the historical analogues to the world the story is set in. That's what got me hooked on A Song of Ice and Fire until they kinda gave up on that in the later books. Not that I don't like it, but they sort of lost that neat hook as the fantasy stakes got higher. Contrary to popular belief, there was scientific and technological development in medieval Europe, but it was slow and disorganized because the technology of the time didn't allow for easily disseminating information. Many innovations were built by craftspeople who applied the tools of one trade to another, like the people who developed printing from the principles of wine presses.
This is sorta a harry potter rant, but it goes pretty much well with all fantasy settings.
Aside from the fact I hate magic, I hate fantasy settings because they're always set in the bloody darkages. No one understands how modern medicine works, chemical reactions, hell even fucking geology. And my question is, why?
Why is there never a scientist in any of these settings?[/spoiler]
Oh, Medieval Stasis. Never moving forward in time, even though by all logic it should. I think Tolkien is mostly to blame for this. It is hard to predict how technological growth would work in a world of high fantasy. So, it's easier to just assume it never will. Besides, that is what the audiences want. If your a writer, you write what sells.
Some exceptions you may want to look into: Warhammer Fantasy (several factions are advancing technology, while the few that aren't do so deliberately) and Avatar: Last Airbender (an industrial revolution is what prompts the firenation to invade the rest of the world).
The gun argument is always a good one, in Harry Potter "they" say that muggle technology doesn't work. Well what is a gun really? Theres a mechanical component, and theres a chemical reaction with the gun powder. So are we to believe a rope and pully wouldn't work at hogwarts? The gun powder, fine, I could by that however FIRE is a chemical reaction too, and if that doesn't work then how the FUCK do the candles in the mess hall burn a blaze? Or are these some bullshit magic candles?
And fine, gun powder doesn't work, well there are all these magical chemical reactions (Poitions), can one really not somehow mix something together that can create the small explosion to shoot the bullet? I think the advantage of this is obvious, you wouldn't have to yell "OBLITERATE!" or whatever before you attack giving your opponent time to counter attack. Furthermore they'd be all "OBLI-Ack!" because you just shot them in the throat.
In the books, by technology, all the examples given of muggle technology that doesn't work on campus is anything that requires electricity. We see both mechanical objects (locks, the train) and chemical reactions (potions, the fact students don't drop dead the second they walk through the doors) working fine. It is unlikely the school's wards were tailored to stop gunpowder, since they were set a thousand years ago, and even modern Wizards don't even know what a gun is (one guy called it a "Fireleg").
Since 1. spells take time to either say or think about, 2. are noted to fly slow enough to dodged or magically blocked and 3. Wizards basically no know nothing about muggles, the muggles would win almost any conflict, if pressed.
Another book series, the Dresden Files (who also stars a wizard named Harry, although he is very different from the boy who lived), make it clear that bringing human forces into a conflict is basically the nuclear option. Individually, humans are weak, but if humans were ever aware of monsters on a large scale, they could just keep throwing troops, tanks, and attack helicopters at the problem till it is dead. Wizards actually caused vampires to nearly go extinct by arranging the publication of a little book called, "Dracula," telling humans what vampire's weaknesses is.
And I'm sick of how no one ever cares how the magic can even be done. A lot of people ***** about George Lucas creating the Midichlorians, but at least the fucking Jedi took the time to understand how they could tap into this spiritual energy.
That does prove why authors don't do that more often. Explain the magic, and you take away the mystery of the magic. It does happen, there is a trope for it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoingInTheWizard
I do know a few examples people try to understand magic through science, but keep failing. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (i.e. possibly the most read and liked Harry Potter fanfiction ever), the scientist raised Harry struggles constantly with how magic laughs in the face of scientific knowledge.
"You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat! You violated Conservation of Energy! That's not just an arbitrary rule; it's implied by the form of the quantum Hamiltonian! Rejecting it destroys unitarity and then you get FTL signaling!"
Another interesting use is the SCP Foundation. The SCP Foundation tries to contain and study elderich things, from a cement statue that only moves when nobody is looking at it, to a woman who can pull off pieces of herself and pass it off for money (no, it's implied it doesn't simply grow back). They try to experiment with anything they can capture, to try to understand and eventually find a way to use it. This never happens.
Well, I don't disagree with you. It's one of - if not the main - reason to keep technology at arm's length. It's aligned closely everyone does it that way and otherwise it'd be too hard.
Such anti-intellectual nonsense. The so called sanity shattering effects of the warp are merely the result of strain on lesser minds that snap under its sheer splendour.
I am a man of letters. A well regarded scholar is my own right. Now hand me the gauntlet of grox blood so that I may anoint your forehead this minute with the "sign that should never be written" as I utter the "words that should never be spoken." Because fixing the radio will take too long and I don't want to miss this week's radio drama.
Harnessing barely understood forces to convert radio-frequency transmissions directly into cochlear stimulation is entirely safe. But I must warn you, rather than hearing some radio static the sound of discordant moans can be heard. A purely auditory illusion I assure you.
Babbling in tongues, speaking of prophecies? Well sometimes the speech centres get stimulated. But there are no reported long term effects.
You can filter out the noise from the signal if you use the class-4 ceramic composite with the piezoelectric resonator. Also use some livestock as a filter to divert the corruptive influence. A Grox will last about four to five months before it has too many wickedly hooked limbs. That awful acrid smell is if starts producing acid. Use the reinforced class-7 polymer reinforced cage.
This is sorta a harry potter rant, but it goes pretty much well with all fantasy settings.
Aside from the fact I hate magic, I hate fantasy settings because they're always set in the bloody darkages. No one understands how modern medicine works, chemical reactions, hell even fucking geology. And my question is, why?
Why is there never a scientist in any of these settings?
Completely forgetting that prominent wizards usually own an expansive laboratory and has living quarters adjoining it somewhere.
That their workplace is often the only thing they would regard as a home. Chambers that serve as storehouses of magical and scholarly treasures; they are filled with vials of liquid, bags of powder, dusty tomes, mildewed scrolls, blackened candles, innumerable burning braziers, bronze scales, arrays of knives, marble mortars and pestles, coloured inks, peacock feather pens, and sundry magical devices of many different varieties.
"We agreed we sell the kegs of black powder to the peasants to use to clear tree stumps provided that we tell them it?s 'magic' powder."
"Behold my propane-powered fire magics!"
Harry Potter?s wizarding world of mostly ignorant blackbox technology users reflects a stagnant society whose recent inventions have all been imitations of muggle wrought contraptions.
There are "stylistic" reasons. Magic has historically been shorthand for "does weird/cool stuff, BUT I dont get why". Technology expects (even requires) a high level of understanding. A car in the hand of a mechanic is technology; in the hand of a neolithic person, it's magic.
Which is why I think there is a strong "magic=dark ages" association; magic implies a lack of understanding & knowledge. Technology implies understanding & enlightenment.
You could easily argue that psionics/the force/other magic-ish sci-fi elements are, effectively, "magic", but understood & well established. Thus co-existence of magic & technology is sor tof an oxymoron; if you understand magic, it just becomes a part of science/technology.
I tend to fluff magic (in my TRPGs) as more of a "force of will" (almost, but not quite psionics), with only rubes & the fearfull refering to it as "magic".
TLDR: Magic & Tech exist on a same continuum, with tech/science implying profound understanding of your source of power, and magic a lack thereof. (in my mind anyway)
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