Why is Steam defending cheaters?

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I usually don't use sayings like "screenshot or it didn't happen" but in these cases, where cheating is involved, you really need to either suck it up and power through or start recording your games if its that much a problem. You'll always run across cheaters, and it may seem like they never get punished but the reality is if Steam didn't give a rats ass, you'd see it much much more widespread.
Be thankful there is VAC and it works, though no system is perfect.
Forums honestly are the last place to look for help/support against cheating. Also I agree the potential for abuse in the "naming and shaming" thing is too great.

 

[elvor0]

Considering VAC bans are 0-tolerance and permanent, regardless of what you did to earn it, I think it's a bit much to say Steam is "defending cheaters".

Yeah, I clicked on the thread specifically because I was like "wot."

Because, seriously, I wanted to know if this was really a thing.

OT: I'm mixed on "naming and shaming." On the one hand, it'd be nice to know who the cheaters are. On the other, people are seldom to be trusted to handle such possibilities. I get called a cheater occasionally simply for doing better than the other team in MP games. And that's not even necessarily because I'm good. Just because I was better in one game out of five (or ten, or twenty).

People accuse others of cheating as a matter of course.

Aye it's just too risky, I've a mate who is astonishingly good at Counter Strike, one of those guys who is almost impossible to tell from someone using cheats, I know he isn't cheating, but you'd be hard pressed to tell if you just encountered him as a random dude. But then if you were to name and shame him, and then it turns out he isn't cheating the stigma isn't going to go anywhere. It's the same concept as why you're not supposed to shout about people you suspect of being a peodofile unless you've got 100% proof.

 

[Zontar]

I don't have the game but I just looked at the store page. It doesn't use VAC (Valve Anti Cheat), so it's not Steam's responsibility to ban cheaters.

Actually the game does appear to use VAC without either Steam or the store page advertising the fact, or mentioning on any VAC supported game-lists of any kind. Either that or the anti-cheat system is programed to detect a VAC ban and auto-ban accordingly (though if this is the case someone should notify Valve as it's a violation of several parts of the ToS if that is the case).

 

[A-D.]

Dark Souls 2 does not in fact use VAC at all, it was intended to yes, but it doesnt because FROM stated that they were trying to make sure that VAC would not false-flag accounts who use graphical upgrade mods, the kind of mods that made Dark Souls 1 a massive success on the PC. However most Forums, Steam and otherwise, have a no naming&shaming policy, which results from the fact that often times the alleged cheater is not actually cheating at all.

Take for example a false-positive VAC-ban. They will not admit that their system fucked up, they wont "unban" you even if you were banned for no fault on your own by using some normal mod. You are now branded for life, even IF you actually cheated, even just once, this stigma will stay with your account because it will not be removed by Valve after a set period of time, which to be honest it should. If VAC does not detect you "cheating" again for X number of months or years, the ban should be removed until such a time that you cheat again, kinda like how the Escapist Warnings work, eventually your record is set back to zero if you do not keep adding more warnings.

That being said, if you can go around to a forum and publicly shame people for cheating, whether they are or not, it assigns the same stigma. And often times its really a case of people being sore losers. You got beaten in a fight? Well clearly the other guy had to be hacking, no one is better than you. Thats the problem and thats why public naming and shaming is forbidden.

However to get to your story, im uncertain if there IS a infinite-stamina hack, Alonne Greatbow does not use the entire Stamina-bar, can be fired rapidly (compared to the Dragonslayer Greatbow) and with a Chloranty Ring (the +2 is preferred) you can essentially keep firing endlessly since the windup time for shooting is long enough that the difference between having stamina and having none is very slim, you can actually fire it with just 1% stamina which may have been regenerated while the arrow was still traveling to its destination. I know this because one of my builds actually uses it as a ranged-option in PvE, coupled with the knockback you can essentially pin enemies down without fear of them actually getting close. As for the "not falling off", yes thats the parry-airwalk glitch which is going to be fixed in the next patch, as well as binoboosting (exploiting that lets you move at higher speed than sprinting without stamina-drain). Although i cant be sure, i've only seen the latter in action once.

 

[Doom972]

I don't have the game but I just looked at the store page. It doesn't use VAC (Valve Anti Cheat), so it's not Steam's responsibility to ban cheaters.

Actually the game does appear to use VAC without either Steam or the store page advertising the fact, or mentioning on any VAC supported game-lists of any kind. Either that or the anti-cheat system is programed to detect a VAC ban and auto-ban accordingly (though if this is the case someone should notify Valve as it's a violation of several parts of the ToS if that is the case).

I never played the game, so I'll assume you are correct. It's a bit strange though.

 

[gigastar]

The specific bug that you mentioned whic allows players to walk on the air has been patched. On consoles at least, i havent seen any DS2 patch for PC just yet.

Also main reason why there are, as you call them, "cheat defenders" is due to the severity of the punishment. In this case a VAC ban which will lock you out of basically every Steamworks MP game, and once given is never removed. (Or at least ive never heard of a VAC ban being removed.)

And for the record, ive been accused of cheating myself when going 12:1 as Heavy in TF2 on this failure of a custom map that was so claustrophbic it would give CoD maps a run for thier money. Also recieved alot of colourful words from spies who dont realise that their footsteps can be heard.

 

[Jamieson 90]

My friend is a quite highly ranked CS:GO player and he is fairly good and usually manages to get a 3:1 k/d ratio as long as his team isn't complete wank.

When he was on his most active he got accused of cheating at least once or twice a week. I could leave it at that, but the thing is that people who are good (or manages a lucky strike) are often accused of cheating just because someone gets pissed. This isn't about defending cheaters, it's about discouraging public accusations that may just be the result of someone getting attacked by someone who's simply better. The VAC anti cheat will ban a user from all online servers if they are caught so it is important that a ban is justified rather than someone having a hissy fit.

I've experienced the same as your friend. Back when I was playing Enemy Territory Quake Wars a few years back, I was in a professional team that played competitively in tournaments. We'd play like at least five hours a night on week days (25 hours) and a good 20 hours at the weekend totting up 45-50 hours of gaming per week. The 4 of us knew each other inside out and the level of team play and cooperation we created was immense.

We were used to playing against some of the best teams and players in the world, so when we went onto pub play we'd just destroy people like they were nothing, pulling off moves and srats that they must have thought impossible but were pretty much routine for us. Not surprisingly you could guarantee that one of us would get accused of cheating at least once a day.

So that's the point, you don't know who's on the other side, they could be a pro for all you know; don't cry hacks unless you have proof.

 

[vIRL Nightmare]

Your story isn't completely clear. How many great arrows did he fire? Do you realize you can fire great arrows from the Alonne Greatbow nearly as fast as the longbow if you don't care about stamina consumption. If the walking on air glitch you are talking about is what I think it is, there are a few locations in the game that you can do it like in the Dragon Aerie, that is a fun silly little thing that, as an invader, I have totally helped hosts do it because of how amusing it is. What was the red doing the entire time for that matter?

I don't mean to be, well mean, but if they're cheating, they go the full nine yards and be invincible, or some sort of full health regen. There are a few places that you can walk of into the aether because of bugs in the games engine and, frankly "no pause" isn't he was able to notch an arrow every second, like that bow is capable of. Again, not trying to sound mean, but this is the kind of frustration I expect to see on forums from souls cops that clearly have a bias against the people they're invading to begin with. When in doubt, realize how funky the souls game engine really is, despite it's success.

 

[anonymity88]

Have you considered gittin' gud?

I kid, I kid...

I've been accused of hacking earlier today on 360 because someone didn't realise that the Chameleon spell existed or what it does.

He thought I'd modded my game to look like a vase. I think if he was to take that to a forum though he'd only be shaming himself when people responded.

On a completely unrelated note I don't know why either the website or a mod decided to delete my avatar for me but I am pretty irritated.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I can't really speak from a behaviour point of view. There're a couple of things at play here...the cheating in an online game (tho it's not really "competitive multiplayer" in the sense of an 8v8 Team Deathmatch or 5x5 MOBA). The other issue is in the "naming and shaming" bit. For the first, it is pretty "unsportsmanlike" IMO. For the second, it's the usual thing about "airing dirty laundry in public". Generally, just don't do it.

From a technical point of view I can speak with more confidence. Steam have VAC on most multiplayer servers. Cheats work by altering the values in a computers memory from a source outside of the game. For infinite health for example in a game , the memory address that stores the health value is simply "frozen". Same with trainers that add money, experience, whatever...they alter the values in memory (this doesn't apply to save editors obviously which change the value in a file).

What VAC does (and most anti-cheat systems) is that it has both a client-side and server-side component. The two send data to each other which for a normal player will match. ie. what happens on the client/local side is the same as what happens on the server side. I don't know the specifics (no one but the creators do), but for example, it would know your XYZ coordinates on the map (along with those of other players) and which direction everyone is facing. When a player moves, their local client sends that to the server which updates everyone else's clients. A cheat which alters the values of game data in memory on the local machine will generate values which don't "match" those on the server as it were. It is also possible that the client-side anti-cheat is simply able to tell that a game's memory space was altered by an external source, or that a program capable of making such alterations is running (whether any changes have been made or not).

The thing with the OP's example is that it's not a server based game but a local one and the online player that joined did so directly, a peer-to-peer connection. Here there are no technical/anti-cheat systems in place and in truth the game isn't being disrupted on a mass scale so technical measures may be heavy-handed and unnecessary.

As for exploiting a glitch to float on air, I don't have an issue with that really. If there's an exploit in the game engine that someone makes use of, yes it's unfair, but it's not banworthy. Exploit that shit right back. It's an in-game mechanic, intended or otherwise so open for making full use of. Cheats for infinite mana and perfect aim however are just not cricket.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Simple explanation is you can't "name and shame" cheaters because then every person who gets butthurt about losing a fair fight will come on the forums and complain about the "dirty cheater" that beat them. It's really that simple.

Also, we only have your story to go on and no proof of cheating, and I'm guessing it was the same on the forum you posted on. What exactly do you expect the mods to do, let you badmouth another player with no proof of wrongdoing?

Finally, while those are the game's forums, the moderators of those forums likely have nothing to do with the actual game, and really have no power to do anything about the cheaters (because anyone who actually would have power to ban cheaters and the like is actually working on the game rather than moderating the forums).

You'll sadly. .. always have cheaters/hackers in games like Dark Souls. Especially when there's the element of invading others to ruin their playthrough. Who doesn't like being able to kill players in their world as unholy red phantom? Least in their eyes.

However, the best way to deal with cheaters is not to publicly shame them. Rather, here's a few ways- the right way!

• - Record your game. Seriously, a clip of audio + video of what's happening can really prove your point in a matter of seconds rather than hours of trying to convince everyone why said user was a cheater.
  
  - Screen shots. If he was in mid air healing, take a screen shot. Especially with Steam, you just press one button and bam they're done for. Not to say they'll get in trouble for sure, but you have proof there as well.
  
  - Accept it. I'm sorry, but ... in games like this, you shall always face them. Since it's Dark Souls .. dying to em isn't so bad. Especially if you're a blue sentinel or dragon bro because there's no consequence for invading them. However as a host, just wear the Ring of Sacrifice, repair it, and you're good on saving your humanity. I only wear it if the person i'm facing looks like they'll spam or are somewhat unfair (because sorcerers whom spam OP spells make me instantly equip my ring lol).

Sorry you have faced such a person, but at least there's a LOT LESS hackers and cheaters on Dark Souls 2. You should of seen how it was like for Dark Souls ... my god. I could see why people didn't like being invaded ever lol.

yup and yup. proof is everything, and considering screenshots are literally a button away (anything you are seeing the screenshot WILL get.) it's lol worthy if you expect anyone to do anything about it when you are "naming and shaming" someone with no proof.

 

[Snotnarok]

You mean the community is defending the innocent, even if this person did cheat you aren't providing proof, you have no recordings of the event. Innocent till proven guilty.

I've been called out as a cheater a bunch in TF2, mostly by the guys in last place who are either just angry they're not doing well or their team isn't helping them. Does that make me a cheater? There's more than a dozen in one year that called me out as a cheater, had people spectate me and everything, no videos, no VAC ban, it's empty air. Hell I was called a cheater when I was doing awful score wise, messing around with the caber with a negative score and the person was serious.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying you offer no proof in a world where everyone is a cheater when they're scored above you, or are a troll. No one on the forums care, they can't do anything anyway. They can advise you on cheaters, how to tell if there is one or known cheats that they have dealt with but no user or mod can help ban someone.

 

[AdagioBoognish]

I don't have the game but I just looked at the store page. It doesn't use VAC (Valve Anti Cheat), so it's not Steam's responsibility to ban cheaters.

Actually the game does appear to use VAC without either Steam or the store page advertising the fact, or mentioning on any VAC supported game-lists of any kind. Either that or the anti-cheat system is programed to detect a VAC ban and auto-ban accordingly (though if this is the case someone should notify Valve as it's a violation of several parts of the ToS if that is the case).

I never played the game, so I'll assume you are correct. It's a bit strange though.

It is VAC protected, at least it was shortly after launch when I was playing. It caused quite the kerfuffle among modders on Steams' forums. Apparently VAC will see any mod that modifies certain files (.dll and .exe I think) as a hack and issue a ban. I lost interest in DS2, so I'm not sure what came of it, but I remember a lot of people being upset about the game bringing in VAC without advertising it ahead of time.

 

[alceste007]

While I despise cheaters, a VAC ban is permanent loss of access to all of their Steam games. This is a pretty painful penalty. Is DS2 actually a VAC game now?