Why is the Wii U not succeeding?

[Kittyhawk]

@jeffers and/or dragonbum

What's the point in answering, when the answers I give are not enough for you to digest and grasp (not that I care, watery ducks back and all). I love conversation and games and will admit that I'm not always right about everything (who is?). However, for a start I can only respond to one person at a time once I've processed my thoughts and views on a subject. Do you ever talk to two people at once?

I'm sorry, throwing what I said back at me combined with your own thoughts is just a mess heads and tails of sentences, taken out of their context and thrown to the wind, and I never post anything like that because its kind of poor confusing form. Quotes have their place, but like anything can be overused as some here clearly do (perhaps my standards are different). Juggling my previous post, plus your reply, plus coherent reply is just too broken and mindfXXXy, but that's just me. If you ask me a question, I will respond to you with your name at the top to you alone. I don't feel the need to use quotes to bamboozle when my posts are clear enough so you can hopefully understand them and why I might have such a different view, before replying back.

To start, I was responding to Dragonbum, not yourself jeffers, but you felt the need to tag team into a post, which didn't help make things clearer. If I'm ever going to respond to a post, I do my best to pay attention to one person and post at a time, not two or more. Imagine if I did the same thing in real life, a bit of an information overload would happen.

Now, I'd be open to replying to your other points (as its not impossible to change my mind), if at first I know whom I'm replying to and cut confusion out. And if you don't get my sense of personal humour or what you might perceive as condescending, I'm afraid I can't help you there. That's just the way I am.

Oh, feel free to use numbers next to each of your points or questions, as its a hell of a lot easier than using quotes everywhere. Just a suggestion.

 

[IceForce]

What's the point in answering, when the answers I give are not enough for you to digest and grasp (not that I care, watery ducks back and all). I love conversation and games and will admit that I'm not always right about everything (who is?). However, for a start I can only respond to one person at a time once I've processed my thoughts and views on a subject. Do you ever talk to two people at once?

I don't think anyone here expects you to reply to multiple people at exactly the same time.
When you've responded to one person, then you can go ahead and respond to the other. All in your own time.

See, that's the beauty of text-based communication, - you can take your time to reply, and mull-over what you're going to say.
Unlike in real life, where you'd look a bit strange if you didn't answer someone straight away, and instead stared blankly at them while you think of what to say.

I'm sorry, throwing what I said back at me combined with your own thoughts is just a mess heads and tails of sentences, taken out of their context and thrown to the wind, and I never post anything like that because its kind of poor confusing form. Quotes have their place, but like anything can be overused as some here clearly do (perhaps my standards are different). Juggling my previous post, plus your reply, plus coherent reply is just too broken and mindfXXXy, but that's just me. If you ask me a question, I will respond to you with your name at the top to you alone. I don't feel the need to use quotes to bamboozle when my posts are clear enough so you can hopefully understand them and why I might have such a different view, before replying back.

[...]

Oh, feel free to use numbers next to each of your points or questions, as its a hell of a lot easier than using quotes everywhere. Just a suggestion.

I'm not sure what's so difficult about it, ... but quoting, and quote splitting, are rather common practices here on this forum.

For example, I wanted to address two points in your post, so I split your quote in half.
Further splitting can be helpful when there are more points to address.

Numbering (1,2,3,...) or lettering (A,B,C,...) next to points, actually makes it harder to follow. But that's just my opinion.

The main reason for quoting people when addressing them, is that they get notified that they've been quoted.
Just @ -ing them doesn't notify them, so they don't necessarily realize that someone in the thread is replying to them directly.

 

[Roxas1359]

When the new Smash Bros gets released, sales for the system will probably skyrocket.

You'd think they'd bring something like that out on release rather than letting it fester like this.

Not really, considering Sakurai and the Smash Bros guys at HAL released Kid Icarus in March of last year, and they'll want at least a couple of years to get the new Smash ready to go.

No Nintendo system has ever launched with Smash before, so it's not exactly surprising now that it's a 2014 release.

Uh, I know this is a semi-old quote but wasn't Melee a launch title for the Gamecube?

I think it was meant to, but Sakurai delayed it to work more on it because I know that out of all the Smash Bros games Sakurai worked himself to the point in which he made himself ill when it came to Melee. *salutes Sakurai for giving us the gem that was Melee*

Edit: After checking it was a launch title coming out 2 months after the GameCube, so it falls under as being considered a launch title.

 

[MetalDooley]

Can you clarify something for me because what you've posted here is slightly confusing

Last time I checked I can take a CD version of Skyrim with my stuff in it, put it in someone else's Xbox and still play my Skyrim game.
All games are now in the disc. Including the save files. I cannot find anywhere on my Wii or 3DS a little section that says "Mario Galaxy save file" those have been gone since the Gamecube era.

Are you suggesting that game save files are stored on the game disc itself?

Because they're not.On 360 they're stored on the Hard-drive,cloud storage or a removable flash drive.If I want to play my Skyrim game on someone else's 360 I have to have my save file on a USB flash drive or saved using the 360's cloud storage function

I can't speak for the 3DS as I don't own one but on the Wii you click on the "Wii Options" button in the bottom left corner of the main menu then click "Data Management"=>"Save Data"=>"Wii" and all your save files will be there

 

[Roxas1359]

I can't speak for the 3DS as I don't own one but on the Wii you click on the "Wii Options" button in the bottom left corner of the main menu then click "Data Management"=>"Save Data"=>"Wii" and all your save files will be there

The 3DS has a small built in storage capacity and a slot for an SD card. You need to format the SD card so that it'll work with the 3DS though, sorta like how you could format a USB drive to work as a small Xbox Memory Unit. I think there's no limit to the size of SD card that can be used, just as long as it's formatted to work with a 3DS, but I could be wrong.

 

[MetalDooley]

The 3DS has a small built in storage capacity and a slot for an SD card. You need to format the SD card so that it'll work with the 3DS though, sorta like how you could format a USB drive to work as a small Xbox Memory Unit. I think there's no limit to the size of SD card that can be used, just as long as it's formatted to work with a 3DS, but I could be wrong.

Ah ok thanks for the info.Game saves aren't stored on the game cart itself so like on the DS?

 

[Roxas1359]

The 3DS has a small built in storage capacity and a slot for an SD card. You need to format the SD card so that it'll work with the 3DS though, sorta like how you could format a USB drive to work as a small Xbox Memory Unit. I think there's no limit to the size of SD card that can be used, just as long as it's formatted to work with a 3DS, but I could be wrong.

Ah ok thanks for the info.Game saves aren't stored on the game cart itself so like on the DS?

For physical copies of the game I believe they are still saved to the cartridge, but the digital ones are saved to the system itself, or SD card if you have it. Again I could be wrong, but I can check my 3DS when I get home because I have New Leaf as being digital and I have Dark Moon for physical.
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong because I don't use my handhelds too much.

 

[Dragonbums]

The 3DS has a small built in storage capacity and a slot for an SD card. You need to format the SD card so that it'll work with the 3DS though, sorta like how you could format a USB drive to work as a small Xbox Memory Unit. I think there's no limit to the size of SD card that can be used, just as long as it's formatted to work with a 3DS, but I could be wrong.

Ah ok thanks for the info.Game saves aren't stored on the game cart itself so like on the DS?

For physical copies of the game I believe they are still saved to the cartridge, but the digital ones are saved to the system itself, or SD card if you have it. Again I could be wrong, but I can check my 3DS when I get home because I have New Leaf as being digital and I have Dark Moon for physical.
Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong because I don't use my handhelds too much.

No. You are correct on that one. I do believe though on their most recent update you have the ability back up your save data onto the SD card.
But for the most part, everything is saved onto the cartridge.

 

[Dragonbums]

Can you clarify something for me because what you've posted here is slightly confusing

Last time I checked I can take a CD version of Skyrim with my stuff in it, put it in someone else's Xbox and still play my Skyrim game.
All games are now in the disc. Including the save files. I cannot find anywhere on my Wii or 3DS a little section that says "Mario Galaxy save file" those have been gone since the Gamecube era.

Are you suggesting that game save files are stored on the game disc itself?

Because they're not.On 360 they're stored on the Hard-drive,cloud storage or a removable flash drive.If I want to play my Skyrim game on someone else's 360 I have to have my save file on a USB flash drive or saved using the 360's cloud storage function

I can't speak for the 3DS as I don't own one but on the Wii you click on the "Wii Options" button in the bottom left corner of the main menu then click "Data Management"=>"Save Data"=>"Wii" and all your save files will be there

I would think so?
I mean, aside from getting a USB stick so one could add more space onto their Wii U hard drive, I don't think I've ever really heard of anyone complaining about disk space for any Wii U games you have a physical copy of. Of all the detractors on the Wii, this is something I have yet to see brought up as a legitimate problem.
So perhaps they do do it, but not to the extent of the Gamecube where you would actually see GC memory cards and the like.

 

[Roxas1359]

snip

Isn't there a limit to the amount of space that can be added on to a Wii U when using an external USB hard drive? I know that Nintendo says for you to use the type of ones that plug in directly and have a list on their Wii U information on the ones that they've tested to work on the Wii U, but much like the 3DS I've never read if there was a limit to how big it could be. I know the Xbox One has a limit to the amount of space you can add, and the PS4 can have it's hard drive upgraded to an SSD or another hard drive so long as it is a 2.5" laptop SSD or HDD, although they recommend to not upgrade it past a TB since it'll cause performance issues.
Also, when it comes to HDD space it's more of a problem for people who buy digital than those who buy the physical copies of games because after a while it adds up. I know my Wii U will eventually fill up when they start making GameCube VC games, and if Nintendo somehow doesn't start doing that in like another year or 2 then I will question their sanity as selling the Metroid Prime games on VC would sell like crazy, as would Melee, Double Dash, Sunshine (please do this one, mines broken), etc.

 

[MetalDooley]

I would think so?

For game save files to be stored directly onto the game disc it would require those discs to be rewritable and would require your console to have a built in disc burner which I'm pretty sure none of the current or upcoming consoles have.Game saves are stored to the system memory/hard-drive/flash drive/SD card/whatever.Cartridge based games are the only ones that store the game saves directly onto the game itself

I mean, aside from getting a USB stick so one could add more space onto their Wii U hard drive, I don't think I've ever really heard of anyone complaining about disk space for any Wii U games you have a physical copy of. Of all the detractors on the Wii, this is something I have yet to see brought up as a legitimate problem.

That's because save files tend to be pretty small averaging from a few hundred kb to a couple of mb.The 8gb or 32gb memory of the Wii U is more than enough if you only ever plan on using it for save files.The problems arise when you want to download digital titles

 

[Lightknight]

I've enjoyed our discussion so far. Please let me know if I've been appearing rude or inflammatory towards you. From my side of the table it looks like just an open discussion between gamers. I've seen some unnecessary flame baiting against you in this thread and just wanted to make sure our discussion was non-adversarial.

snipped for Escapist being dumb

The Basic Wii U model is only basically at $300.00 (for the US. I don't know about other countries)
It comes with the following:
-8GB of memory
-Gamepad
-Gamepad stylus
-Sensor bar
-HDMI cable
-AC adapters for both the console and the gamepad.

The deluxe version is priced at $350.00

-32 GB of memory
-Wii U gamepad
-Wii U stylus
-Sensor bar
-HDMI cable
-AC adapters for both the console and gamepad.
-Nintendo Land Video game
-Deluxe Digital Promotion that works by getting 10% points back for every purchase in the online store. Meaning a game costing $60.00 will give you $5.00 back in eshop credit.
-Wii U gamepad stand
-Wii U console stand
-Wii U gamepad cradle.

If not for the storage space, the digital deluxe promotion is more than worth the purchase for many people. Especially when many eshop games cost about $5.00 anyway.

Deluxe's Nintendo Land Video game is selling for $17 on Amazon new.


and

The gamepad cradle/stand is $9 new. [http://www.amazon.com/Wii-GamePad-Stand-Cradle-Nintendo-U/dp/B009AFLXTS/ref=sr_1_1_title_0?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1376340380&sr=1-1&keywords=gamepad+console+stand]

That's $1.50 plus shipping mind you.

This is MAYBE $26 in extras and that's assuming that you would have bought Nintendo Land regardless. If not, you're just spending $50 extra for little more than $10. The rest is then for 24GB of Memory. For goodness sake, 24GB of Memory is nothing. Why is it not 100GB or 500GB for that price?! I can literally get you 32GB thumb drives from reliable companie for less than $10.

Here, this is literally a thumb drive (joke) that holds 64GB for $12, new. [http://www.amazon.com/Finger-Model-Memory-Stick-Flash/dp/B00CRYSCAC/ref=sr_1_7?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1376402455&sr=1-7]

Shame on Nintendo for being so stingy in a world where $80 gets you 2TB of space with a 3.0 USB ($110 gets you 3 TBs from Seagate).

The 10% deal is cute, if you don't already get a better deal by shopping Amazon or any retailer rather than purchasing on the game store which always keeps the price up for some anti-steam reason I guess. If you exclusively buy games at launch then this is an attractive deal. I buy weeks, sometimes months later. I'm currently enjoying Borderlands 2 for the first time. It's great.

Are you at all concerned that the WiiU will be considered a failure in a couple years and be discontinued after you've put money into it?

I'm not going to buy a console because it's the "winner" of whatever gen it's in. I'm going to buy a console that promises me to give me the games I love the most with the best experience.
You are thinking far too ahead in the future.
We don't know what will happen to the Wii U even 1 year from now. Things can drastically change for the better for all we know.
Will it be nice on my part? Yeah sure.
However I don't really rate a console based on which place the machine lands on.

I asked if you were concerned. If the game continues to sell at this rate with no pickup then it will have to be replaced by them. Are you worried about getting stuck with the bill at all here? I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it because of that concern, I'm asking if that's a concern you share. It's nice to say that Nintendo has almost never discontinued a console. But they've also never quite been in this dire straights. The PS3 was at least praised as a powerful systems with a decent game lineup and were able to fall back on price cuts even though they were already selling the system for a loss to make it through the generation. I don't know how Nintendo will fare at this without much praise for the hardware and software and without the deeper pockets that Sony had enjoyed from two console generations that did even better than the Wii and multiple times better than the competing Nintendo product of that generation. The Wii really propped Nintendo up. I think they will have at least another console generation to take a whack at. But there's only two ways they can compete in the future. Matching the competition and using their IPs as leverage in an even playing field or approaching the market from a different angle like they brilliantly did with the Wii. Again, you can have a low cost machine and appeal to a huge range of casual gamers and families that don't have or don't want ot spend $300-400 on a console, or you can have a powerful machine that gamers pay a few extra hundreds for. You can be somewhere in between or both groups will be unhappy with it and that's what Nintendo has done here. I think they thought they'd be able to get enough support the year before the other consoles were released to have continued 3rd party support. I think Nintendo genuinely tried and the market just wasn't having it.

Even know I'm battling over whether or not to trade in my Wii. I know I'm going to miss it.

I would only be concerned with trading in my Wii for a WiiU if it was not backwards compatible. Fortunately it is from what I understand, so you've got that at least. Even worst case scenario you still have that. So don't think I'm trying to scare tactic you. If you play a lot of gamecube titles on your wii then perhaps you'll miss those.

I have planned on getting a PS4 at some point. Mainly because of Kingdom Hearts and just a tiny bit of Final Fantasy. I couldn't give any real two shits for the PS3 because a lot of my favorite franchises like Spyro and Crash Bandicoot ended. And a good amount of games that interested me I could simply get on my laptop. However I am a little miffed at the fact that everyone now has pay for the online aspect of the games they buy.
Everytime I think about it, it turns me off to the console. I know there are benefits to paying but...I like knowing that the game I payed for has everything in it. Including mulitplayer. Just knowing that I can't have it if I don't pony up more money annoys me. Yeah, that's it. It's a big annoyance more than a complete turn off.

Those servers do cost money to run at rates that FPS games demand like never before. I will say that Sony's plus program is incredibly attractive. I just played Uncharted 3 for free. Lots of fun. You should check out Little Big Planet if you haven't already. During previous generations, free online experiences were possible because the traffic wasn't that intensive. But games like Halo and COD and any of the other large multi-player titles exploded the demand on multiplayer titles in a way Sony wasn't prepared for this past generation. I don't know if you were aware of it, but there was a noticeable difference between my 360 online games and my ps3 online games. Worse lag times, worse performance, everything. Then Sony implemented the optional ps+ program and pumped that revenue into their servers and my experience on ps3's multiplayer titles changes such that my 360 started collecting dust. As long as Nintendo games don't have a ton of people playing at the same time in a computionally complex game then they won't need to charge that much more for these titles.

PS3 is a nice experience. Seeing as how I've owned a console from them previously.(and Nino No Kuni is such an adorable game.)

I've really wanted to try that game, thanks for reminding me (my birthday is in a bit and my wife is looking for things to get me. I hear I'm hard to shop for). I love studio Ghibli in general and combining that art direction with what is basically pokemon sounds like a dream come true.

But I always feel right at home with a Nintendo console. I like the light hearted stuff. I really do.

I understand that, but I also enjoy more mature storylines that I feel Nintendo fails to deliver on. I really like FPS like Bioshock, the Last of Us, Halo and such. I enjoy AAA storylines like Metal Gear Solid (well, I have enjoyed MGS, lately it's become even more of a movie than a game), Uncharted always feels like I'm Indiana Jones, Shadow of the Colossus, and the hitman series which is decidedly un-Nintendo. But these aren't titles I get on the WiiU. Only two of the games mentioned are even available on the pc. I've also had a ton great experiences with Indie titles and Nintendo isn't making any observable progress there (yet?).

I do like the more light hearted games, they have their place and I've had a lot of fun with games like Little Big Planet, Journey, and various other titles for the Xbox (Viva Pinata, tell me that didn't tug on your Nintendo heart strings, haha, it did mine). I do think Nintendo has the most to offer in that category. So if more involved/serious titles can take it or leave it then they may not appeal to you at all. That ends up being left up to subjective tastes. However, you'd got to understand that the majority of gamers now prefer more involved storylines with more adult themes and customizeable gameplay. That doesn't mean that Nintendo sucks. Just that it doesn't cater to a lot of the gaming community. On the other hand, while the other consoles don't have the best where family friendly/light hearted titles are concerned, I feel like they do fill that need as best as possible without having license rights to a plumber.

Nintendo has long since had bad third party support. However I think the saying goes- "Nintendo fans don't buy their hardware for third party games" that is not to say it isn't appreciated. However the third party games that are INDEED on the system are really great.

But that saying only emphasizes the problem. The other two competitors have a good lineup of exclusives (particularly Sony this past generation) AND have the fully supply that is 3rd party developers. I mean, No Ni Kuni that you mentioned, that's a 3rd party Sony exclusive (there was a much less involved DS version released in Japan only). There's no reason that shouldn't have been on the Wii or WiiU and yet somehow Nintendo couldn't get that done. That's awful, they'd already had a working relationship with the company on a game that did very well on the DS and dropped the ball.

Some 3rd party games on the wii are good, but I've found that no one has more shovelware than Nintendo either. Especially on the DS which I feel has better first and third party development but a sea of crap you have to wade through to find them. Many of my favorite 3rd party stuff for Nintendo ended up getting ported to other machines. Take No More Heroes for example. Released with fixes to graphics/performance, enhanced graphics, new side missions, new features, new modes, etc.

I have found that good 3rd party exclusives on Nintendo consoles are outnumbered by Nintendo 1st party titles which isn't very many. 3rd party multi-console titles are extremely lacking, particularly the high-profile one.

If you've got a limited amount of money and can only pick one console, that's a serious issue. I have a two-income gaming household. Both my wife and I play games and our finances are squared away. Even so, the Nintendo WiiU looks like a bad deal even though it wouldn't hurt us financially to get it. I am fully prepared to wait three or four years before picking up a reduced priced one and all the games I've missed (which may be ten if the Wii generation was any indicator).

Nintendo has actually been making a lot of effort in the indie scene lately. Pencil Test studios have been contacted by Nintendo personally to make their indie game title put on the Wii U if it made $950k on their Kickstarter. Not only did they make the money to so much as fund the game (which was $900k) they actually managed to quickly raise their stretch fund goals in a matter of two days for the Wii U development goal. That's just one example. I think the indie scene will thrive soon on the Wii U and 3DS.

Hah, "If you prove that there's a full demand for your game then we want you on our system" is not them actively pursuing Indie developers. Also, this is the creator of EarthWorm Jim. He's already worked with Nintendo in the past unless I'm just imagining working on EarthWorm Jim on the SNES for hours and hours.

So all Indies need to be already have proven themselves? That's not being Indie friendly. That's being development company friendly. That being said, I have seen some hopeful policies from Nintendo on this front but at the same time I've seen unexplainable anti-indie practices:

For example, did you know that if you're a Japanese indie developer that Nintendo is throwing your application immediately into the trash without even looking at it? [http://www.joystiq.com/2013/07/24/nintendo-not-accepting-japanese-applications-for-wii-u-indie-dev/]

I hardly watch DVDs anyway, so this hardly affects me. Then again, after the experiencing how completely trashy my PS2 was at playing DVD's I'm not exactly seeing that feature as a win or lose kind of deal for me. Also most people have a separate DVD box anyway so I don't think they will really think about it, but you know, it's all about preference.

The ps2 was about equivalent to pc DVD playing at the time it was made. There have been significant advances in that ability since then and this generation will even have faster Bluray playing which the ps3 was already perfectly fine at before. Now, I personally don't care about Blu-ray. I'm not a graphiophile. However, you're talking about a full range of media that is added to the ps4 for less than $100. There's a lot of additional media features that some people would use but others wouldn't. Like the use of the ps4's 500GB as a picture storage device. I found it nice to have pictures from our wedding up on the ps3 cycling through during reunion party a couple years back. That's just one of several smaller features that are totally available on both of these systems (not sure on XBO, actually) but not available on the WiiU and even if it were the limited storage space could quickly become a problem.

Nintendo machines are always weaker than their competitors. I think the exception was the Gamecube? Again, doesn't really bother me.

I'm not sure why people thought the Gamecube was stronger. They point only to the CPU's speed without mentioning either of the PS2's vectors which serve as load balancers. Using the CPU by itself would be like only using six cylinders in a 12 cylinder car.

What Sony did was make an environment that basically functions like a multi-threading CPU. Much harder to program for but rewarding in the end:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2000/11/04/gamecube-versus-playstation-2

I'd say that the two systems were equivalent or unnoticeably different. Both consoles also suffered from ports from the other. The gamecube's specs are a lot clearer up-front and the ps2 takes a lot more understanding to get to the raw performance of. Sony made the same mistake for the ps3 generation but even harder for programming and I think that really hurt them in a lot of ways. They've thankfully stopped that with the current generation but Nintendo, in not going x86, has made themselves the harder one to code for.

The gamecube generation was interesting. It only sold 22 million consoles despite being the cheapest and of comparable power while the ps2 sold more than any other console in history at 154 million. The Xbox also gained ground with 25 million units here.

For some reason, Sony was just better at getting those 3rd party titles and exclusives. Nintendo isn't willing to play the game of courting and even subsidizing third party titles. That's why they started to fail at getting those titles because Sony made themselves more attractive to those companies. The Wii got better support because it was flying off the shelves. But even then, Nintendo wasn't courting 3rd party developers and so a lot of AAA titles ended up going for the more powerful machines rather than making it playable on all three.

As of right now the game industry could use some limitations. What with the overblown budgets and sub par games that plagued this generation (and even caused some studios to shut down.)

That's silly. I don't mean you're silly, just that this oft repeated notion is totally backwards. You don't fix broken companies by limiting their ability to harm themselves. You let the dumb ones over-spend to the point of exhaustion and then let the good businesses acquire the IPs over the previous company's cold dead body. Companies that spend millions more than they should in production and marketing just because some forecasting department idiot told them that their JRPG could make COD money if they did so aren't companies that deserve to succeed because they're failing to understand the basic tenants of marketing. Namely, limited demand. You can't spend an infinite amount of money on the quality of the game and marketing it to customers and expect to get unlimited customers. When selling millions of copies each of games like Tomb Raider, Hitman, and Sleeping Dogs isn't good enough then it's time to redirect the course the ship is sailing in and take another look at the basics. Millions of copies is a lot of copies in the game world. If you can't profit with that then your budget in production and/or marketing should have been tighter than it was because the demand for it just wasn't as high. Larger companies are already learning from this and I believe they're readjusting their business practices. There's a LOT that can be done to bring production budgets down, including reusing game engines and even sharing game engines across partnerships, cutting multiplayer out of games that aren't necessary, start spending smarter in marketing.

Do you really want companies that don't understand how to budget properly to be in control of your favorite IPs?

I like trying something new with games. Then again I'm a very creatively inclined person. Not that I have a problem with people who are satisfied with playing games the old fashioned way; but you can at least appreciate that at least one company offers a new way to play no?

I'm not seeing any less innovation from the other companies. Ever play Fruit Ninja via the Xbox Kinect? Sony tried a number of things this past generation, I don't think they were as successful but it looks like the ps4 controllers are all going to be the wands this time around. I don't think that adding a tablet really did much of anything new this time around. It just encorporated already existing tech. The WiiU is not an innovation.

We still have no clue if Nintendo is going to drop the console or not. Again, let's not start stating things as total fact.
The whole situation can easily turn around.
(so let's get to making tv ads for the thing Nintendo.)
Am I saying to drop cash on it?
No.
But let's not count this thing out.

Let me ask you something. If Nintendo did have to stop developing home consoles, would you mind? Do you feel like you'd lose something if they still made their own peripherals and software for other consoles and computers? I know they're not planning on doing that, but I feel like we, as gamers, would only stand to benefit from them stopping the home console market. In business, if you can get people to focus on their specialty, everyone wins. Nintendo is trying to hold on to what is called vertical integration. For example, if you are Walmart you own not only the retail store, but you also own manufacturing businesses as well as shipping departments that get products from the manufactoring plants to the retailer store fronts.

The thing is, a limited end point, the store front, harms every point of the business preceding that stage. In limiting themselves to one store front that isn't every successful, they harm their publishing and developing side of the business which is what they specialize in. 3.6 million WiiUs means they can't possibly sell 28 million copies of Mario Cart like they did for the Wii. At the same 28% attach rate that that game saw we would see 1.01 million copies sold. Nintendo should stop at the point of integration they are most successful at. I won't throw away the storefront just yet though. If successful it can be the most profitable spot to hold, but if this generation and the next do particularly poorly then they'll need to change something. Even if that's as simple as offering up older titles on other systems (no reason why I shouldn't be able to purchase and play the original Super Mario Bros. or gamecube games on PC and other consoles as long as I give Nintendo money).

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I think they did a really shitty job with the marketing, I didn't even know it was coming out so soon until a week after it did.

 

[Dragonbums]

I would think so?

For game save files to be stored directly onto the game disc it would require those discs to be rewritable and would require your console to have a built in disc burner which I'm pretty sure none of the current or upcoming consoles have.Game saves are stored to the system memory/hard-drive/flash drive/SD card/whatever.Cartridge based games are the only ones that store the game saves directly onto the game itself

I mean, aside from getting a USB stick so one could add more space onto their Wii U hard drive, I don't think I've ever really heard of anyone complaining about disk space for any Wii U games you have a physical copy of. Of all the detractors on the Wii, this is something I have yet to see brought up as a legitimate problem.

That's because save files tend to be pretty small averaging from a few hundred kb to a couple of mb.The 8gb or 32gb memory of the Wii U is more than enough if you only ever plan on using it for save files.The problems arise when you want to download digital titles

I see now.
Whoopsies on my part.
I guess that is such a non issue I never really cared to notice it. Or at the very least it wasn't as noticeable on the Gamecube so I just thought they did away with it.
But I agree. with downloaded titles that can indeed be a problem.
Which is often why I usually choose to get a game in physical form anyway.
Only full digital game I downloaded was Fire Emblem: Awakening, and that game practically took up all of the blocks of my 2GB card that came with my 3DS.

Captcha: sippy cup. Yes captcha I was indeed a very robust 8 year old when I got my Gamecube. I was however far gone from the sippy cup stage.

 

[Kittyhawk]

I think Amir Kondori made some good points.

LightKnight, you also make some valid points.

As for wanting a Nintendo home console to do well or not, at the end of the day a console is a box. A conduit to experience games from. Some like to have their own box, that's cool they can do that. However, if your box fails to sell well enough, you've got to ask questions and rethink.

Removing the equation of Nintendo's home console box (consider it for a second...don't panic) wouldn't change how good their games are. In fact, removing the burden of home consoles (while they'd still do hand helds) and all their 21 century trappings Nintendo find hard to grasp, IMO, would allow them to focus on the biggest, greatest strength, their games. Perhaps then their variety and creativity might explode more, producing some new better games besides those classic we love.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Dragonbums, I hope through Metal Dooley's post, you now understand how important optical storage (and storage in general) is now for consoles. Sure, Nintendo might not have used a hard drive (with their name on it) yet, but eventually they will (just as they eventually did use disc media from carts). DLC content is such a huge, lucrative part of selling extra game content these days, that various parties would love to produce it for Wii U but perhaps can't if there's nowhere to store it or guarantee gamers have that storage.

Across the life of my 360 which began with a 20gb hard drive in 2006, I managed to eventually fill it by 2010. Have since upgraded to a 250gb hard drive, which I hope will last me the rest of the current gen. A huge chunk of it is filled with DLC content, map packs etc. I'd be screwed without it. Cloud storage appeared recently, which is great for backing up game saves but not for my large amount of game content, some of which isn't available as DLC anymore (see Two Worlds/Chromehounds etc).

Lol. I remember the days of my N64 well. I played Turok 2 and it was awesome but after progressing so much my progress was scuppered and lost by a dodgy memory card, and I was never able to recover that save file and gave up playing it. I had similar experience with my PS1 too, so I'm happy not to have to deal with memory cards anymore, this current gen.

 

[Lightknight]

Nintendo has never dropped support for any console that isn't the Virtual Boy. The N64 sold 32 million, they supported the thing for years. The Gamecube sold 25 million, they supported it as well.

32 million and 22 million (the xbox is the one that sold 25 million that gen) weren't terribly small numbers for the time. They were just small when compared to the playstation's insane numbers those two generations but Nintendo certainly wasn't hurting. They only recently posted their first losses and that had nothing to do with those generations. Yes, they'd lost a lot of market share with the playstation, but they were still profiting.

The thing with the gamecube was this, it was around as powerful if not more powerful than its competitors and was the cheapest system by far. They literally couldn't have done any better where the console was concerned. So discontinuing the console wouldn't have done anything for them unless it would magically generate games to sell the system. The N64 was also perplexing. Sony just jumped into the arena and slaughtered Sega at the same time they took market share from Nintendo. All I can think of is that the Playstation was better marketed or that it had already acquired a stable fan base by having a year-lead on the N64 that was extended by a severe lack of games at launch that the playstation did NOT suffer from. But that the N64, one of the if not THE most beloved consoles ever sold that much less than its competitors is remarkable. Really, I think launch lineups have always plagued Nintendo's consoes. Don't know why they keep making the same mistake each generation.

The current WiiU console isn't close to being as powerful as its competitors and isn't that much cheaper. Right now they're smack in the middle. They're too expensive to be an impulse buy like the Wii was and they're too weak to compete with the upcoming competition. Imagine a gamecube that was almost as expensive as the ps2 and Xbox without being as powerful.

I'd be more worried about Microsoft dropping support, given their history of completely stopping anything to do with an old console once a new one comes out.

Every company, Nintendo included, discontinue their old consoles eventually after the new console comes out. The problem isn't concern over the console being discontinued later when the Wii3 is produced, it's concern over the console being discontinued early. If the XBO sold as poorly as the WiiU is selling right now I'd be even more concerned with them dropping the XBO than I'd be concerned with Nintendo doing so. But that's because I trust Nintendo more than Microsoft.

If Nintendo launched a new console this soon after the Wii U, it would irreparably damage their public image. No-one would buy a new console if Nintendo set a precedent of dropping support for previous consoles on a whim. The Virtual Boy gets a pass for having been dropped two decades ago, and because it tanked so badly anyway.

The virtual boy was discontinued within five months after its launch. It sold 770,000 units in that time when they had anticipated selling 3 million units. This means the VB sold only 26% of anticipated sales whereas the WiiU was somewhere around 60% of the original 5.5 million it expected and the 3.3 million it got. Don't think it's completely unthinkable with such a comparative example. The difference is that the Virtual Boy was a gamble from the start and they knew it.

Now then, a relaunch does not mean eradicating the existing product line. They could, for example, launch a new type of WiiU that doesn't come with the tablet to reduce the price point by $100 or more while encouraging developers to continue to support the tablet and selling the tablet separately as an optional peripheral. That's if they want to compete on a price point. Let me ask you something, do you really feel like the gamepad is worth adding $100s to the system? Actually, from the Nintendo News site the gamepad could be around $140 just to replace:

http://mynintendonews.com/2013/02/26/wii-u-gamepad-could-cost-you-at-least-140-to-replace/

Imagine if the WiiU standard was $160 and the Premium was $210. That's a pretty simple impulse buy.

Nintendo aren't going anywhere with the Wii U anytime soon. They've just started getting the hang of HD development. They're not going to be in a rush to push out a new console that supports 4K resolution and sports the latest Radeon monstrosity.

That's a problem if they're going to charge close to the same amount as a console that does sport the latest "monstrosity" (aka is capable of playing more powerful games, interesting thing to call a monstrocity).

Having to pay for online multiplayer is, in my mind, the definition of not getting the most for your buck. Not when other companies still manage to offer the service for free.

Online Multiplayers services have shot through the roof in the price of maintaining them with the adoption of huge multiplayer FPS titles like COD. I'm not the happiest about my other games subsidizing COD multiplayer but the playstation+ perks are more than competent.

Nintendo is cultivating just as many indies as Sony, if not more.

Right, and they're starting to implement that by refusing applications to develop indie games from any Japanese developers. That's a really good sign.

http://kotaku.com/apparently-nintendo-is-refusing-japanese-indie-develop-877747113

Anyone in this day and age who really cares about films has a Netflix or Hulu account. Which the Wii U supports, without hiding them behind a paywall. *Glares at Microsoft*

I do have both of those. I also have two DVDs delivered to me at any given time by Netflix's DVD mailing service for anything else that is on DVD but isn't on those services. Hence how I'm watching Game of Thrones now. And yeah, shame on Microsoft for that. I've been disappointed by that too.

Debatable. New screens from upcoming games like Bayonetta 2 show a marked difference between the original X360 game, and the level of graphics we can expect from the sequel.

No, not debateable. It has been interesting seeing people try to prevent it. The WiiU is much more powerful than the current generation but significantly weaker than next gen tech (aside from the logical argument that it is a next gen console ergo it is exactly next gen tech). The only question is how much weaker, not whether or not it is.

I wouldn't be entirely worried bout it. Nintendo's system is exactly as powerful as it needs to be to run Nintendo games.

Try Wonderful 101. The Gamepad (its not a tablet, so stop referring to it as such) allows you to specifically draw out weapons to whatever size you want. Larger weapons require more heroes to use, but do much more damage. The touchscreen gives you much greater control over drawing those weapons than the analogue stick does, and makes for a much more fluif experience.

It is a tablet. Gamepad is just the name of it. Tablet is to Gamepad as Cell Phone is to iPhone. It is correct to call it a tablet. There are other tablets that also have game-style controllers attached to them as well.

I fail to see why I'd particularly want a $140 to do small things in the game. I seriously doubt that wonderful 101 would have been undesignable/unplayable without the tablet.

 

[Lightknight]

The biggest point for me now is how poorly it is doing. I certainly don't want to drop any amount of cash for something that's just going to be dropped.

How poorly it is doing now you mean, it actually had enough traction to beat ps3 to one million in japan.

The PS3 had a terrible start and then pushed itself into an even more precarious position by dropping the price but this move eventually paid off. At least the machine was widely believed to be the most powerful of the generation AND it doubled as what was actually a cheap blu-ray player before they became common (seriously, if you remember the prices at the time, a comparable bluray player was like $1,000 for some insane reason that's still beyond me). Sony negotiated heavily for exclusives and their multi-armed development studio beast which is legion pumped out many of the most memorable titles of the generation.

Nintendo's WiiU is NOT the most powerful device, does not double as any kind of media device where disks are concerned, and is already selling at a loss for Nintendo with an arguably unecessary $140 peripheral that is the Gamepad (aka Tablet) which allows you to play games from a minor distance away (compare to a used Vita that allows you to play ps4 games and media from thousands of miles away for $145 and is entirely optional to purchase and has titles custom made for just it). They have literally no reason to justify the price otherwise and the titles just aren't there. That's what has been hurting them since the N64 when they launched with a whopping two games (Pilotwings 64 and Super Mario 64) unless you count Saikyō Habu Shōgi [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiky%C5%8D_Habu_Sh%C5%8Dgi] which I only just learned about while researching my response to you.

If the WiiU wants to pull out of this, it'll have to give a compelling reason to buy the system. Nintendo has already acknowledged this necessity without providing an answer. If the Nintendo Execs can acknowledge this, we should be able to admit that they are REALLY under-performing right now. They need games badly. They need to cut prices badly if they can't come up with a good reason to want the console at its current price. There's a lot of stuff they've got to figure out and you really shouldn't be defending them for it just like you likely weren't defending the PS3's performance if you were around when it was having troubles.

Nintendo won't drop this console, it isn't cause their dumb(it's actually smart business,) they need to bounce out the negative this console is bringing to their bank account. It wouldn't be hard to relaunch this console in the fall either before the console release or at least before Christmas.

How would you recommend they relaunch the console? What changes do you think they should make? Keep in mind, Nintendo doesn't believe that they should have to make the development on their console more appealing by "buying" developers the way Sony and Microsoft do. All that ends up meaning is that they won't have games to sell the system like the other two will because they're too proud to think they need to attract other companies. They literally do not entirely understand how 3rd party cultivation works in today's market or are unwilling to play along in a way that hurts them more than others.

Now that Nintendo is finally in the start of the constant releases, I wouldn't be surprised by them getting heavy with marketing now that they actually have something to market. People are saying price deduction but I think it would be more business savy to take a hit on a game than the console. A bundle with New Mario U or even the new one would sweeten the deal and attract the less than internet savvy.

When the WiiU is within $100 of the price of arguably the most powerful console on the market the system will have a huge initial hurdle to jump. Imagine if they dropped the tablet ($140 to make) and had a console price of $160 for the base unit, $210 for the advanced one. Suddenly the console is a very easy buy. They need to do a lot. But remember that both of the competitors have announced a ton of VERY attractive launch titles for both systems. Nintendo may only play catchup on that front and it's pretty sad that they made the same mistake for at least 3 console launches.

It's so sad because, look:

http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames#1

Both the Ps4 console and the XBO consoles are selling at a faster rate than Pikimin 3 on an hourly basis. Pikmin 3, a game I will be buying in about 2-4 years depending on the WiiU's status because it looks like a damn fine first rate game and will likely be one of Nintendo's big ten titles that people had to pay the $300 console tax to play. Wii games? DS games? They're floating all over this list. But this single object is the only thing on this list with the WiiU brand on it at the time of this posting (this updates every hour). Right this moment, the ps3 controller is selling better and that's a shame.

What I'm hoping is that this was all due to the botched media campaign and that this Christmas, all those parents who want to buy a family friendly system will look at the WiiU. That's their best shot.

The Wii U isn't hurting on number of games. A glance at the Wikipedia page will tell you Nintendo already has an impressive library.

Here's the problem though. None of those titles stand out.

The statement "The WiiU doesn't have games" and "None of these titles stand out" are practically synonymous. Of course the first statement means it doesn't have GOOD games or enough good games as the case may be.

 

[Dragonbums]

I'm just going to tell you this straight off the bat dude.
If you cannot be assed to hit the reply button when you are talking to me, then I am going to stop conversing with your until you do.
Do not MAKE me have to refresh this forum post every 20 minutes just so I can check to see if you said anything to me or not.
The function is there for a reason. USE IT.

I hope through Metal Dooley's post, you now understand how important optical storage (and storage in general) is now for consoles. Sure, Nintendo might not have used a hard drive (with their name on it) yet, but eventually they will (just as they eventually did use disc media from carts)

You cherry picked his argument. While yes, he did state that the Wii U hard drive space is a bit small, he also mentioned that save files only take up a pathetic amount of kilobytes. Let me quote that for you save files tend to be pretty small averaging from a few hundred kb to a couple of mb.The 8gb or 32gb memory of the Wii U is more than enough if you only ever plan on using it for save files.The problems arise when you want to download digital titles.
He has basically stated that Wii U disk space will NEVER be a major problem, if at all- so much a concern to third party developers.
The only people worried about such a thing would be indie devs (and even then their games are small on average anyway. Yet along file size.) and those who want to download full $60.00 games on their Wii U. That's it. Other than that, you can buy dozens of Wii U games and still not run into a hard drive space problem.

DLC content is such a huge, lucrative part of selling extra game content these days, that various parties would love to produce it for Wii U but perhaps can't if there's nowhere to store it or guarantee gamers have that storage.

Only a couple of game developers this gen have actually used DLC to add content to an already full game.
Most however utilize it as a piece meal. Things that could of been added at launch of a game that were purposefully withheld to get more money out of the consumers.
Mass Effect 2-3 are the worst offenders of this act. Keeping essential and fleshed out characters on DLC so they can charge you $10.00 extra for content that should of stayed in game.

various parties would love to produce it for Wii U but perhaps can't if there's nowhere to store it or guarantee gamers have that storage.

Considering how save files take up a very tiny amount of space on a memory card, I hardly doubt again DLC will take that much.
As for space, it is not the job of Nintendo or the developers to make sure that users know they have enough space on their hard drives. If they filled their Wii U hard drive to the brim with over bloated stuff, then that is all on them. Nintendo is not going to hold their hand when it comes to space management.

Across the life of my 360 which began with a 20gb hard drive in 2006, I managed to eventually fill it by 2010. Have since upgraded to a 250gb hard drive,

For someone who is making a big deal about lack of Wii U hard drive space, the fact that you admitted that it still took you a hearty four years to fill up your 26gb hard drive is enough to prove how much of a non issue this is. Especially when you emphasize on the fact that you filled it to the brim with DLC. You also failed to mention how many games you own, and how much DLC you own. However based on what you said, we can only assume it's a fuck ton. Especially considering how the average consumer does not spend that much money on DLC anyway.